Penfed fraud detection, or lack of it

[Alan]

For the past 6 years, my BOFA Debit card has been "hacked" by someone in Asia at least once a year and they usually purchase Apple Product in Taiwan.

I try to keep my BOFA balance as low as possible since BOFA seem to have a bad security system. Only reason why I haven't closed the account is because BOFA ATM is everywhere

That sucks.


I use an internet bank and get $8 of ATM charges refunded every month, which means I rarely ever have a charge

 

[audreyh1]

Thanks for the info. I've been wondering about the chip and pin options because I plan to travel to Europe this fall. Also, I suppose I can use my Bank of America ATM card there as well? But I'd rather use a credit card than carry around a bunch of cash.

 

[martyb]

I forgot to say that about 4 years ago, when I had a membership at a 2nd CU up in Wisconsin (Blackhawk Credit Union) my account was hacked somehow, and some punk charged up a few hundred $$ worth of something from Sony online. Sony refused to refund the $$ even though I argued that there weren't out any actual merchandise, only some kind of online games or something. Eventually, the credit union agreed to make my account whole (I actually had been in the process of closing the account and only had $5 in it anyway). The $500 was the total amount charged to the card plus credit union-assessed overdrawn fees. That particular cu did not alert me until the situation had grown to the $500. You'd think that with a $5 balance, they'd have mentioned it sooner...

 

[Sarah in SC]

audrey, you probably don't want to use the BofA, since they charge a foreign transaction fee. Try Sapphire from Chase, or even the debit card from Charles Schwab, to use as a backup. Penfed doesn't charge the foreign transaction fees either.

 

[gauss]

Eventually, the credit union agreed to make my account whole (I actually had been in the process of closing the account and only had $5 in it anyway). The $500 was the total amount charged to the card plus credit union-assessed overdrawn fees. That particular cu did not alert me until the situation had grown to the $500. You'd think that with a $5 balance, they'd have mentioned it sooner...

I think with the passage of Dodd-Frank, financial institutions are required to get you to explicitly "OPT-IN" for them to cover electronic overdrafts. I always decline this because of the potential for large fees (I just want the transaction declined if the funds are not there). This was the origin of the phrase the "$30 cup of coffee", when debit cards
were used for payment and the overdraft was granted.

The financial institutions seem to have big marketing pushes to convince people that it is good to OPT-IN (where in reality, what they are doing is protecting a revenue stream that was unregulated in the past). Unfortunately I have seen this behavior at Credit Unions as well as Banks.

Bottom line, is that not having OPT-IN for overdrafts on your accounts today may have also protected you from the Sony hackers (at least the amount that went beyond your actual balance).

-gauss

 

[nwsteve]

You have to request it, but I saw the offer on their website. I've been scanning for these i in my "fleet" whenever possible, just because I knew they'd be easier to use overseas.
When they canceled and reissued the last time, I made sure when I talked to them that the replacement would also be chip and pin.
My new Marriott rewards from Chase and my Sapphire are chip and pin as well.

Sarah,
I have the Marriott rewards card and a BA card--both have a chip but I could not get Chase to give me a pin. When advising them of an intl trip, Chase told me they do not provide pins at this time
Did you succeed in getting a pin??
Thanks
Nwsteve

 

[Sarah in SC]

steve, you are right--I just got the card a few weeks ago, and had been meaning to call about the travel notification. So it has the chip, but it is chip and sig, not chip and pin. Safer, but still not as good as the chip and pin. Looks like Penfed is my goto for the chip and pin.
Oh, and I found out today that Schwab will be issuing chip and pin debit cards starting in October.

 

[audreyh1]

audrey, you probably don't want to use the BofA, since they charge a foreign transaction fee. Try Sapphire from Chase, or even the debit card from Charles Schwab, to use as a backup. Penfed doesn't charge the foreign transaction fees either.

Looks like the BofA Travel Rewards Visa card is a chip card that has no foreign transaction fees, and more or less 1.5% rewards from purchases that can be applied against travel expenses like hotel rooms. Not quite as flexible as a pure cash rewards card, but probably easy enough to use the rewards.

Apparently my Fidelity Amex card has a 1% foreign transactions fee which makes it a 1% cash rewards card overseas, compared to 2% in the US. A decent alternative wherever they might accept the card in Europe.

 

[Dreamer]

Alan, So sorry to hear about your troubles. Hope it gets straightened out right away for you and that you have a wonderful trip.

 

[Alan]

Thought I'd give an update on this.

I still hadn't received the affidavit that I needed to sign before we left for 2 weeks in France where I knew we would not have easy access to the web during the first week, and none at all during the 2nd week.

Despite repeated reminders to send the affidavit I have to sign via e-mail I didn't see it when we surfaced from our internet blackout on Saturday. I Skyped our son and asked him to check the mailbox. Sure enough it was there with a cover letter saying that I had 15 days to return it otherwise they would reinstate all the fraudulent charges. I got him to take photos of the 3 pages with his iPod Touch and email them to me. The folks who own the farm we are staying in have a printer and were kind enough to let me print the photos out. We then signed them, and I photo'ed them with my iPad and emailed them to the Penfed helpdesk and asked them to forward them on. Today I still hadn't heard anything so I called and talked to the guy who had sent me the letter and he confirmed that he'd received the signed affidavit and there was nothing else I needed to do.

Unlike the last time this happened ( a year ago) I have been pretty unimpressed with the Penfed customer service. Last time I had a single point of contact who dealt with the issue, kept me informed of progress, e-mailed the affidavit and checked that I'd received it. This time it was really hard work, and I was handed off to several folks, and when a paper letter arrived back in Texas it was from a person I'd never been in contact with. When I talked to him today it was like talking to a brick, receiving one word answers to my questions.

The fact that we were dealing with a $23k fraud didn't seem important enough to them to keep me well informed on what was going on and what I needed to do. They even missed reversing 6 of the 40 charges, amounting to over $1,000 during the process. (I clearly told them I had NO charges on the card and the balance should be ZERO).

Oh well, back to the vacation and having fun.....

 

[aja8888]

My PenFed VISA got hacked while we were in Wisconsin to the tune of $1765.00 last month. A purchase at StubHub in California went unnoticed by PenFed fraud until I got home from our Wisconsin trip and saw the charge online. What the heck? I don't make large purchases with the VISA and use AMEX for business travel.

On another note, My AMEX, which got routinely hacked while on business travel, always seem to pick up the fraud before I found out. That card got remotely scanned while checking into the Crown Plaza hotel in San Juan, PR, and $18K was spent on electronic goodies in Croatia overnight before AMEX called me. That was an eye opener!

I now have very little confidence in Penfed's system. I have only had their card for 6 months. I may be going back to AMEX exclusliveley or get one of those chipped PenFed cards..

 

[braumeister]

I'll just toss this out as a suggestion.

After having various credit cards, both Visa and MasterCard, compromised by crooks over a number of years, I came to realize that there was one common denominator.

Every one of the incidents (which were all caught by the card issuer, usually either PenFed or USAA), occurred soon after using the card in a restaurant far from home.

I'm not sure how they knew we were far from home, but that was the single criterion that accompanied every one of the frauds.

Eventually, I got tired of always having to get the card cancelled and reissued, so I made up my mind that I would never again let the card out of my sight when using it. That means I must make it a practice to carry enough cash for a restaurant tab instead of using the card, but this is a small inconvenience.

Since I began this policy about three years ago, there have been no further incidents. The card never leaves my sight when being used to charge anything, and I have a much better feeling about carrying it.

 

[aja8888]

I'll just toss this out as a suggestion.

After having various credit cards, both Visa and MasterCard, compromised by crooks over a number of years, I came to realize that there was one common denominator.

Every one of the incidents (which were all caught by the card issuer, usually either PenFed or USAA), occurred soon after using the card in a restaurant far from home.

I'm not sure how they knew we were far from home, but that was the single criterion that accompanied every one of the frauds.

Eventually, I got tired of always having to get the card cancelled and reissued, so I made up my mind that I would never again let the card out of my sight when using it. That means I must make it a practice to carry enough cash for a restaurant tab instead of using the card, but this is a small inconvenience.

Since I began this policy about three years ago, there have been no further incidents. The card never leaves my sight when being used to charge anything, and I have a much better feeling about carrying it.

That's going to be my policy going forward. But the biggest scam of my card came from a remote device in the lobby of the Crown Plaza in San Juan, PR. The card was handed to the guy behind the check in counter, scanned, then handed back to me. It never left my sight.

 

[Meadbh]

I'll just toss this out as a suggestion.

After having various credit cards, both Visa and MasterCard, compromised by crooks over a number of years, I came to realize that there was one common denominator.

Every one of the incidents (which were all caught by the card issuer, usually either PenFed or USAA), occurred soon after using the card in a restaurant far from home.

I'm not sure how they knew we were far from home, but that was the single criterion that accompanied every one of the frauds.

Eventually, I got tired of always having to get the card cancelled and reissued, so I made up my mind that I would never again let the card out of my sight when using it. That means I must make it a practice to carry enough cash for a restaurant tab instead of using the card, but this is a small inconvenience.

Since I began this policy about three years ago, there have been no further incidents. The card never leaves my sight when being used to charge anything, and I have a much better feeling about carrying it.

That's going to be my policy going forward. But the biggest scam of my card came from a remote device in the lobby of the Crown Plaza in San Juan, PR. The card was handed to the guy behind the check in counter, scanned, then handed back to me. It never left my sight.

The solution to this (at least until the crooks manage to hack it) is chip technology with point of sale devices that are brought to your table, requiring your PIN input. I am sure it will happen in the US within a very short time.

 

[Rustward]

That's going to be my policy going forward. But the biggest scam of my card came from a remote device in the lobby of the Crown Plaza in San Juan, PR. The card was handed to the guy behind the check in counter, scanned, then handed back to me. It never left my sight.

Nothing wrong with your plan, but your card information can be stolen after the card is scanned.

 

[aja8888]

Nothing wrong with your plan, but your card information can be stolen after the card is scanned.

Correct and until we get chip/pin technology, the information can be taken in a variety of ways (during and after scanning). I'm just minimizing the opportunity for it happening again.

 

[Alan]

My new card from Penfed is chip and pin which will allow it to be used abroad but I don't think it will stop it from being copied in the USA until merchants switch to chip and pin

 

[braumeister]

The solution to this (at least until the crooks manage to hack it) is chip technology with point of sale devices that are brought to your table, requiring your PIN input. I am sure it will happen in the US within a very short time.

Amen!
I was in British Columbia last month, and was delighted to use this technique in a couple of restaurants. Canada seems way ahead of the US in this.

 

[Malcolm2]

USAA will send you a chip and pin MC if you ask for it. Another great C&P card is from State Department FCU, if you qualify for membership.

Keep in mind if you forget the pin while overseas you are out of luck. This happened to me with my USAA C&P card in France recently. They do not have a means to retrieve it - only option is to generate a mailing to your residence. Luckily we always have backups, but just a warning.

By the way a pos terminal being brought to your table is not secure from fraud either.

 

[Alan]

USAA will send you a chip and pin MC if you ask for it. Another great C&P card is from State Department FCU, if you qualify for membership.

Keep in mind if you forget the pin while overseas you are out of luck. This happened to me with my USAA C&P card in France recently. They do not have a means to retrieve it - only option is to generate a mailing to your residence. Luckily we always have backups, but just a warning.

By the way a pos terminal being brought to your table is not secure from fraud either.

With Penfed I ordered my C&P card online and was able to choose my own PIN, so I was able to pick one that I should remember. (no guaranties of course).


With C&P you can't make a copy by simply swiping through a reader. (at least I don't think so) The card has to be pushed into the slot of a reader and remains there while you enter the PIN.

 

[audreyh1]

Its not clear that the US companies providing chip credit cards are also providing PINs. Someone I talked to at BofA VISA hotline seemed to think you didn't need the PIN in Europe unless you were using a debit card.

 

[Alan]

Its not clear that the US companies providing chip credit cards are also providing PINs. Someone I talked to at BofA VISA hotline seemed to think you didn't need the PIN in Europe unless you were using a debit card.

Correct but I have been caught out 3 times, twice on business, once at a family outing, where I said I would pay but my Amex and my Visa card failed to work and I had to get someone else to pay until I could get to an ATM

 

[audreyh1]

Correct but I have been caught out 3 times, twice on business, once at a family outing, where I said I would pay but my Amex and my Visa card failed to work and I had to get someone else to pay until I could get to an ATM

I mean - they think you didn't need the PIN with the chip card. Guess I'll find out when I try to get one - and then no way to test it in the US? This is aggravating!

 

[Alan]

I mean - they think you didn't need the PIN with the chip card. Guess I'll find out when I try to get one - and then no way to test it in the US? This is aggravating!

You'll be fine without the chip in most places. If the place will take Amex it means they will have a swipe machine for VISA and MASTERCARD as well. A few years ago we were on holiday in rural Spain with our daughter and her husband and some places still only had dial-up modems for the cards. Those places took chip cards but her swipe card was not accepted.


Anywhere touristy and you'll be just fine.

 

[nwsteve]

We just returned from traveling around France for nearly a month, including some pretty rural areas.
Used Chase Marriot card which has a chip but no pin as well as another Chase card without a chip.
Had no problem with any merchant using swipe devise, even some small town speedy mart where we got fuel.
Nwsteve