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Re: Pensioners v Do-it Yourself'ers
Old 03-26-2007, 09:32 AM   #61
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Re: Pensioners v Do-it Yourself'ers

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Originally Posted by HFWR
I still say that having a pension "given" to you is not equivalent to "buying" an annuity...
As FinanceDude points out, as a state employee I paid an opportunity cost (in lower salary than I could make in the private sector) to get 0-premium health insurance, less career volatility, and a pension that I could theoretically live on if I put in a full 30 years. I earn my benefits just like I earn my paycheck. :-)
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Re: Pensioners v Do-it Yourself'ers
Old 03-26-2007, 10:26 AM   #62
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Re: Pensioners v Do-it Yourself'ers

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I often wonder how many people would join civil service or become a teacher without there being a guaranteed pension??
I was bitten long ago with the Kennedy bug ("Ask not what...") and enjoyed my time in public service. But from day 1, the prospect of ER with a good pension at 56 was a huge positive. I am not convinced that Federal employees actually give up much, if anything, in the pay department but the retirement system certainly went a long way to make up for any gaps. I would venture the same is true for many teachers.
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Re: Pensioners v Do-it Yourself'ers
Old 03-26-2007, 10:42 AM   #63
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Re: Pensioners v Do-it Yourself'ers

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Originally Posted by donheff
I was bitten long ago with the Kennedy bug ("Ask not what...") and enjoyed my time in public service. But from day 1, the prospect of ER with a good pension at 56 was a huge positive. I am not convinced that Federal employees actually give up much, if anything, in the pay department but the retirement system certainly went a long way to make up for any gaps. I would venture the same is true for many teachers.
I venture to say we will see some movement to limiting the powers of teacher's unions in the future, whether teachers like it or not, their costs are going up.................
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Re: Pensioners v Do-it Yourself'ers
Old 03-26-2007, 11:26 AM   #64
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Re: Pensioners v Do-it Yourself'ers

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Originally Posted by HFWR
I still say that having a pension "given" to you is not equivalent to "buying" an annuity...
I would've used the word "earning" with regard to pensions. They don't exactly fall out of the sky and drop in your lap like a winning lottery ticket.

But the difference between a govt pension and a Vanguard COLA annuity is probably not much more than the difference between a Vanguard index fund's expense ratio and the TSP's expense ratio. Seems fair to pay a little more for the assurance/insurance. It'd be interesting to see if there's any studies or other basis for comparison...
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Re: Pensioners v Do-it Yourself'ers
Old 03-26-2007, 11:40 AM   #65
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Re: Pensioners v Do-it Yourself'ers

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I venture to say we will see some movement to limiting the powers of teacher's unions in the future, whether teachers like it or not, their costs are going up.................
There is always the possibility of some movement towards limiting the power of teachers' unions in the future, but I don't think it will be anything profound for a long, long time. With the Dems back in power in Congress, legislation to limit teachers' unions right to strike will never happen, guaranteed. The only other chink in the teachers' union armor is competition from the private sector. Do you think private/parochial schools are going to grow significantly as a percentage of total schools?

There might be a "movement" of folks not sympathetic to teachers' unions, but other than piss and moan, what are they going to do?

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Re: Pensioners v Do-it Yourself'ers
Old 03-26-2007, 11:44 AM   #66
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Re: Pensioners v Do-it Yourself'ers

I get the sense that, like the stock market, the labor market is very efficient (if not unduly regulated). The incentives that lead to recruitment and retention in professions that are stressful, dangerous, tedious, or require extensive training at low wages sooner or later sort themselves out. There are alot of inequities (volatility) along the way in specific sectors, but overall a pension is earned, not given out.

In my profession, I elected not to follow a military career because I wanted to live in the civilian community, not move every few years, not get shot at much, and allegedly make more money. True, I'd have been long retired had I chosen that route, but those who did paid for it one way or another.
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Re: Pensioners v Do-it Yourself'ers
Old 03-26-2007, 01:33 PM   #67
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Re: Pensioners v Do-it Yourself'ers

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There is always the possibility of some movement towards limiting the power of teachers' unions in the future, but I don't think it will be anything profound for a long, long time. With the Dems back in power in Congress, legislation to limit teachers' unions right to strike will never happen, guaranteed. The only other chink in the teachers' union armor is competition from the private sector. Do you think private/parochial schools are going to grow significantly as a percentage of total schools?

There might be a "movement" of folks not sympathetic to teachers' unions, but other than piss and moan, what are they going to do?
Well, in our community, the "movement" is already starting. The teacher's union is now bemoaning the fact that WE (the voters) WON'T agree to a large tax increase to do extensive remodeling of our schools and fix "stuff that will break soon"...........

Hmmm.....MAYBE they should have used the money from the LAST referendum the way they said they were going to, rather than use it for "pet projects" done in secret that later were leaked out to the community.................

We already had 5 teachers "quit" because they now have to pay $25 a month for FAMILY health insurance, instead of $0............boo hoo........... :P
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Re: Pensioners v Do-it Yourself'ers
Old 03-26-2007, 01:47 PM   #68
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Re: Pensioners v Do-it Yourself'ers

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Originally Posted by Nords
I would've used the word "earning" with regard to pensions. They don't exactly fall out of the sky and drop in your lap like a winning lottery ticket.
Agreed! Also concede that there's an opportunity cost in lost wages, although it's doubtful you'd receive the all of the difference in salary...

However, when someone says that they wish they had a COLA pension, they're probably not talking about buying one, but rather earning one for their years of servitude...
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Re: Pensioners v Do-it Yourself'ers
Old 03-26-2007, 02:08 PM   #69
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Re: Pensioners v Do-it Yourself'ers

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Originally Posted by HFWR
Agreed! Also concede that there's an opportunity cost in lost wages, although it's doubtful you'd receive the all of the difference in salary...

However, when someone says that they wish they had a COLA pension, they're probably not talking about buying one, but rather earning one for their years of servitude...
Agreed..................

My mom is a good example. She was a teacher for 30 years in public schools. Because she had a master's degree, and taught gifted kids, she was at the top of the pay scale for teachers in her district ($63K)

At 30 years, she gets 80% of the average of her last 5 year's pay as a pension. It's a pretty good deal..........and she never complains, because with SS they can't even spend HER pension, much less my dad's.................

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Re: Pensioners v Do-it Yourself'ers
Old 03-26-2007, 11:38 PM   #70
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Re: Pensioners v Do-it Yourself'ers

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Well, in our community, the "movement" is already starting. The teacher's union is now bemoaning the fact that WE (the voters) WON'T agree to a large tax increase to do extensive remodeling of our schools and fix "stuff that will break soon"...........

Hmmm.....MAYBE they should have used the money from the LAST referendum the way they said they were going to, rather than use it for "pet projects" done in secret that later were leaked out to the community.................
Voting down a referendum targeted at capital improvements is hardly a blow to the strength of the teachers' union. While the teachers may think it's great that the kids have a new science lab, gym equipment or whatever, it's nothing to them personally. No change in pay or benefits or hours of work or.............

Don't misinterpret my position, I'm not a fan of teachers', or any, union. But having been a member of, and managed in, many industrial union situations (IAM, USW of A, Teamsters, etc.) and having been married to a union teacher for a few decades, my opinion is that teachers' unions are well positioned for the time being.

Change will occur over time, but actions such as voting down a referendum aimed at capital improvements, certainly will not be the death blow.

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