Realpolitik - About Bush

[chinaco]

Are you SURE you meant to write "few would say no" to Bush as CEO of their company

Urk.
Arbusto, Harken, Caterair

Bush and the Billionaire: How Insider Capitalism Benefited W.
The president as businessman : The fancy financial footwork of George W. Bush - International Herald Tribune
Washingtonpost.com: Bush Name Helps Fuel Oil Dealings

I think I'd hire Ken Lay (RIP) sooner than George W.
From what I can tell, W has never done one successful independent thing.
Ever.

Opps. See here is a situation where I need to edit my post. Thanks for letting me know. I meant "Few would say YES".

 

[bright eyed]

Look at it like this. Let's say GW was the CEO of a corporation that you invested your life savings in... would you want him at the the helm (think analogy) based on his performance.

I suspect that if most people could remove their political biases, few would say NO.

he'd a done been fired...if any board of directors saw his performance...he did in fact tank a corporation...

 

[bosco]

ladelfina,


As for Hillary's vote for the Iraq war, she had information that there were weapons of mass destruction.

And lest you ignore it. Bill Clinton bombed the crap out of Baghdad.

People ( like myself ) who were in jobs requiring us to know the actual facts about Iraq, are very much satisfied that something had to be done. Clinton tried and failed but Hillary would have had very clear insight into the need for Hussein's removal.

She voted the tough vote.

Iraq war was wrong. But that's hindsight. Makes us all brilliant, except me.

First, Hillary did NOT have information that there were weapons of mass destruction because there were not. She CHOSE to believe lies rather than look at the situation critically because it was expedient for her to do so. She voted the EASY vote, not the tough vote.

Second, there's plenty of stuff that Bill Clinton did that is very disturbing--another good reason NOT to vote for Hillary.

Third, anyone who had been following the efforts of the UN inspection teams, and listened to people who had been on the ground like Scott Ritter knew full well that the supposed weapons were most likely a fabrication. Furthermore, there was never any good reason given why not to let the inspection teams continue their work. Except maybe that it's sexier to attack and bomb.

Fourth, you should know that just because you keep trying to imply that somehow you are in the inner circle or in the know, doesn't give your OPINIONS any more weight in my book. If the "intelligence" community is so intelligent, then why didn't they use their intelligence to make sure the correct information got to people in an unambiguous format?

There are plenty of us who were opposed to the war from the very beginning. It didn't take brilliance. Just some critical thinking and healthy mistrust of the obvious BS coming from the administration.

IMO, Colin Powell should hang his head in shame and never try to return to public life. He allowed his good name and reputation to be used for immoral purposes. I think he was duped, but for that I blame him. He should have been smart enough to see how he was being used.

 

[ERD50]

We knew Bush was an idiot from the day he stole the 2000 election.

So, what does that say about the people he supposedly 'stole' it from?

I would never, in any way, condone vote fraud. But your story says that the Dems were unable to protect voting boxes right out there in public on our own soil.

How they gonna protect us from bad guys? You know, the bad guys that want to hurt us don't play fair either*.

-ERD50

* By 'either', don't assume I am admitting to vote fraud by anyone, I am just following your story. Though I suspect both sides are likely guilty.

 

[OldAgePensioner]

bosco,
I am very frustrated with us being in Iraq, but it was not just Bush, and I notice you missed my comment that Bill Clinton was just as convinced as Bush that there were weapons of mass destruction. He bombed first and based on even more dubious info. Try UN info, info from inspectors from countries like Surinam, a powerhouse of nuclear scientists.
CNN - Clinton: Iraq has abused its last chance - December 16, 1998

The comment on the intelligence communities reaction missed it's mark. It was a subtle way of saying, "get the collective heads out of the orifice and realize that intelligence operatives and agencies can only report factual evidence. They have no power to make sure that is what is presented to the public. Much like a General who may have strong advice that is ignored for political expediency."

Sorry for not making that more clear.

 

[F-One]

OAP - please share the info you have about "Dubya-stan"

As a history buff, I'd love to see it

Thanks

 

[bosco]

bosco,
I am very frustrated with us being in Iraq, but it was not just Bush, and I notice you missed my comment that Bill Clinton was just as convinced as Bush that there were weapons of mass destruction. He bombed first and based on even more dubious info. Try UN info, info from inspectors from countries like Surinam, a powerhouse of nuclear scientists.
CNN - Clinton: Iraq has abused its last chance - December 16, 1998

The comment on the intelligence communities reaction missed it's mark. It was a subtle way of saying, "get the collective heads out of the orifice and realize that intelligence operatives and agencies can only report factual evidence. They have no power to make sure that is what is presented to the public. Much like a General who may have strong advice that is ignored for political expediency."

Sorry for not making that more clear.

The bombing by Clinton and Blair was illegal. You can't cite UN resolutions as the basis for action that is not UN action without having the UN on board, a point the US government chooses to ignore frequently. Flying over a country and bombing it is an act of war, and attempting to shoot down a hostile bomber is perfectly legal.

Annan Says Iraqi No-Fly Zone Firing No Violation

I did not miss your comment. I just don't accept the argument that because Clinton got it wrong, that what Bush did is somehow less reprehensible. Clinton, at least, was a little more measured--he wasn't dumb enough to step in a huge cowpie like an on-the-ground occupation.

I'm confused about what you are saying. Earlier you said how great Bush would look in hindsight because of the "democracy" in the middle east. Now you are saying you are frustrated with the US being in Iraq.

Was the intelligence community right or wrong about WMDs in Iraq? If right (i.e. they knew there weren't any), why didn't they get the message across to decision-makers (my previous post used the word 'people' which was misleading)? If wrong, then why not use a magic 8 ball instead of funding the spooks?--they are much cheaper. People like Scott Ritter were saying over and over that based on their on-the-ground inspections, Iraq couldn't possibly be close to WMDs. Why were these people ignored?

 

[Wags]

ladelfina, like you are doing, I lived abroad for two decades and it was clear that most Europeans thought Ronnie was a nut case. Yet his actions helped Europe immensely. They just never admitted it, not even now.

Fast forward and Bush has given the world a democracy in the Middle East, it will rank with the fall of the Berlin Wall in changing our world.

Hillary will do even greater things, like changing our failed health system into a more social medicine model. She will have more impact that the last 4 presidents combined. The world will love Hillary.

------------------
Wags, while I would be less bombastic, I do agree with your comment because as a former protector of troops worldwide, I also claim:
"because my only concern is for the well being of OUR TROOPS, OUR FALLEN TROOPS, OUR VETERANS, THEIR FAMILIES AND THE IRAQI PEOPLE."

What everyone is missing is a historical perspective on the Iraq. The British appeased Hitler with the Munich Agreement and the world suffered WWII. The British or dare I say, "Churchill's creation of the artificial monarchy of Iraq after World War One, forced together unfriendly peoples, Sunni Muslim Kurds and Arabs, and Iranian Shiite Muslims under a single ruler."

So don't put all the blame on Bush, he had helpers.

See this article and barf. How Britain invented terror bombing in 1920s Iraq | International Communist Current

I'm voting for Hillary.

BTW, I was very civil in what I said above.

But I may soon expose the very well hidden fact that plans were drawn up and preparations made for the US to form a new country. Guess what it was to be called.

If I sound bombastic it is because I am very passionate about the well being and safety of OUR TROOPS, OUR FALLEN TROOPS, OUR VETERANS, THEIR FAMILIES AND THE IRAQI PEOPLE, who in opinion are being subjected to and are victims of Old George W's failed policies. The only ones that are being killed, wounded and maimed are the individuals who are stuck in the middle of the Iraq WAR. It is evident that the U>S is fighting the WRONG WAR AT THE WRONG TIME. And if I am reading some of your other posts correctly 9/11 (please correct me if I am wrong) was just an excuse for Old George W and Cheney to attack and invade Iraq.

As for Ronald Reagan I had the honor and privilege to have served in the armed forces during his two terms as the PRESIDENT OF THE U.S.

I am an Independent and as such I vote for whom ever I beleive to be the best candidate (democrat, republican, independent, green or whatever) at the time of the elections.

As an advocator of PEACE and a person who loves his country, I do believe that we should have a strong military which can act as a deterrent for those who may wish to attack us. But I do not think that it is appropriate to use our armed forces to force democracy on other countries or in this case for Old George W to built his LEGACY as a WAR TIME PRESIDENT. We should use deadly force and the might of OUR ARMED FORCES only when we are attacked.

 

[Rustic23]

Don't confuse them with facts!

 

[OldAgePensioner]

bosco,
I don't think you are confused. I think you need to just understand my statement as I stated it.

I do not think we should be in Iraq, but since we did go into Iraq and were able to accomplish putting into place the first Middle East democracy will over-shadow all else. Bush will be credited with that.

Much as JFK was credited with things that were debacles like Bay of Pigs, Vietnam escalation, Missle crisis allowed to materialize.

We are in agreement, you just are more vitriolic in your opinions.

----
Regards the intelligence community, it is clear that their reports to the Executive are simply reports. The President and his advisers will use them or misuse them as befits their policy.

That is not so complex as to cause confusion I hope.

Robert Kennedy lost his life for exactly that reason. He manipulated CIA reports to his own ends and paid a severe price.

 

[OldAgePensioner]

F-One,
Are you sure, it involves more Bush bash type things. I hate to contribute it inappropriately so. So would a PM do?

 

[travelover]

.............
Robert Kennedy lost his life for exactly that reason. He manipulated CIA reports to his own ends and paid a severe price.

What's this about?

 

[OldAgePensioner]

Feral Engineer, google Robert Kennedy and CIA.

 

[dumpster56]

If I sound bombastic it is because I am very passionate about the well being and safety of OUR TROOPS, OUR FALLEN TROOPS, OUR VETERANS, THEIR FAMILIES AND THE IRAQI PEOPLE, who in opinion are being subjected to and are victims of Old George W's failed policies. The only ones that are being killed, wounded and maimed are the individuals who are stuck in the middle of the Iraq WAR. It is evident that the U>S is fighting the WRONG WAR AT THE WRONG TIME. And if I am reading some of your other posts correctly 9/11 (please correct me if I am wrong) was just an excuse for Old George W and Cheney to attack and invade Iraq.

As for Ronald Reagan I had the honor and privilege to have served in the armed forces during his two terms as the PRESIDENT OF THE U.S.

I am an Independent and as such I vote for whom ever I beleive to be the best candidate (democrat, republican, independent, green or whatever) at the time of the elections.

As an advocator of PEACE and a person who loves his country, I do believe that we should have a strong military which can act as a deterrent for those who may wish to attack us. But I do not think that it is appropriate to use our armed forces to force democracy on other countries or in this case for Old George W to built his LEGACY as a WAR TIME PRESIDENT. We should use deadly force and the might of OUR ARMED FORCES only when we are attacked.

An ex military man with a sense of right and wrong. I applaud your stance. This war in Iraq was done because president Bush COULD! That said he was given awful information and quite frankly is not smart enough to have asked the right questions.

We have asked the american people to go shopping! Oh yea and put a ribbon on the back of the SUV to support the troops. $hit how bout a 3 dollar gasoline tax so we could find an alternative to the arab oil! Or better yet rebuild the american railroads, start local farms, stop buying the cr@p CHINA makes for walmart and support local american business.

 

[bosco]

bosco,

Robert Kennedy lost his life for exactly that reason. He manipulated CIA reports to his own ends and paid a severe price.

Now you have my curiosity up. What did RFK's assassination have to do with CIA reports? I am aware that the official version of the assassination smells pretty badly--far worse than JFK's.

1) 13 .22 slugs were dug out of the woodwork at the Ambassador Hotel. Sirhan Sirhan had an 8 shot revolver and no time to reloaad.

2) According to the coroner's report, the fatal wound was from the right rear and powder burns were consistent with a shot fired less than 2 feet from RFK. Sirhan Sirhan was never behind him, and never closer than 6 feet.

These, and many other questions, were swept under the rug by the LAPD, who conveniently incinerated the evidence within 18 months (claiming it was SOP).

So I have no problem believing mischief was at foot, but why does it always have to be the CIA?

 

[OldAgePensioner]

Ooooops, this has turned political and jingoistic. Time to ban myself.
Adidas.

 

[ladelfina]

the Chelsea Clinton thing caused me to pass a kidney stone, thru my nostrils. OW!

Jes' puttin'' 2 + 2 together.. HRC promoter, stepping on over "to Chelsea", rounding up scorching hot secret documents.. Maybe Sandy Berger wasn't the only one stuffing things in his pants..

The Berlin Wall did not fall by itself, a cowboy in the White House brought that down.

The people of East and West Berlin dismantled on their own it brick by brick. The Soviet bloc was untenable and I think Reagan knew it and got a nice Kodak moment out of it at little cost. What were they gonna do to plug the leaks in Hungary and Czechoslovakia, anyway? There's a domestic price to pay for exporting your ideology onto people who don't really have a hankering for it, and the Soviets had long been feeling the strain, just as we will with the Middle East endeavours.

Whether Iraq ever settles into stable statehood (and I kinda doubt this), I think people will remember less the glorious war of "liberation", than remember the lies about Saddam and 9/11 and nukes and bioweapons labs and getting completely and humiliatingly and predictably bogged down (no fault of the troops but piss-poor planning). We are no further along now than in 2004. WWII was waged and won by now. In Vietnam there really were communists, whose allies really did have nukes; to that extent the politicians forged during the Red Scare era were accurate. [And now Americans on the ER board talk about Vietnam as a retirement destination! Funny how that all worked out!]

--
You GO, Wags!!! Hundreds of thousands are paying the ultimate price for GWB's selfish petulance and hubris.

Think I linked this elsewhere but even such a jaded anti-Bushie as myself found many unpleasant suprises here (October, 2000 i.e. BBE -before the Bush Era):
The Accidental Candidate: Politics & Power: vanityfair.com

Even if he loses, his friends say, he doesn't lose. He'll just change the score, or change the rules, or make his opponent play until he can beat him. "If you were playing basketball and you were playing to 11 and he was down, you went to 15," says Hannah, now a Dallas insurance executive. "If he wasn't winning, he would quit. He would just walk off.… It's what we called Bush Effort: If I don't like the game, I take my ball and go home. Very few people can get away with that." So why could George get away with it? "He was just too easygoing and too pleasant."

Another fast friend, Roland Betts, acknowledges that it is the same in tennis. In November 1992, Bush and Betts were in Santa Fe to host a dinner party, but they had just enough time for one set of doubles. The former Yale classmates were on opposite sides of the net. "There was only one problem—my side won the first set," recalls Betts. "O.K., then we're going two out of three," Bush decreed. Bush's side takes the next set. But Betts's side is winning the third set when it starts to snow. Hard, fat flakes. The catering truck pulls up. But Bush won't let anybody quit. "He's pissed. George runs his mouth constantly," says Betts indulgently. "He's making fun of your last shot, mocking you, needling you, goading you—he never shuts up!" They continued to play tennis through a driving snowstorm.

It is something of an in-joke with Bush's friends and family. "In reality we all know who won, but George wants to go further to see what happens," says an old family friend, venture capitalist and former MGM chairman Louis "Bo" Polk Jr. "George would say, 'Play that one over,' or 'I wasn't quite ready.'

Yeh.. they thought it was funny, an "in-joke".. and then proceeded to send a man with the mental attitude and under-developed morality of a bratty 5-year-old off to run the Free World.

The Right talks about Bush Derangement Syndrome; well, I see it working the other way 'round.. SOMEhow there are people, his "friends", apparently, who allow him to act like a jerk.. because "he's so PLEASANT!?" Funny, I would ditch people who treated me like that. I guess these are some of the same people who, when he LOSES ALL THEIR MONEY.. ADMIRE him!!! Ye Gods and little fishes!

 

[youbet]

In Vietnam there really were communists, whose allies really did have nukes; to that extent the politicians forged during the Red Scare era were accurate. [And now Americans on the ER board talk about Vietnam as a retirement destination! Funny how that all worked out!]
quote]

Yeah, worked out just great ladelfina! Kennedy and Johnson send 60,000+ fine young Americans to horrible deaths in Viet Nam and you describe it as having "all worked out." Pretty pathetic..........

 

[Wags]

An ex military man with a sense of right and wrong. I applaud your stance. This war in Iraq was done because president Bush COULD! That said he was given awful information and quite frankly is not smart enough to have asked the right questions.

We have asked the american people to go shopping! Oh yea and put a ribbon on the back of the SUV to support the troops. $hit how bout a 3 dollar gasoline tax so we could find an alternative to the arab oil! Or better yet rebuild the american railroads, start local farms, stop buying the cr@p CHINA makes for walmart and support local american business.

Thank you for you comments.

Continue to support OUR TROOPS and AMERICA.

With the high gas prices, the high cost of health insurance, our factory jobs and most of our jobs being outsourced overseas, the destruction of the family farms by major corporations, the need to repair bidges, roads and rails, the poor state of security at our borders, our airports, our seaports, etc.., etc... one has to wonder where the priorities of Old George W and the Congress are? It seems that the American people are at the bottom on the list of priorities,

 

[wildcat]

Thank you for you comments.

Continue to support OUR TROOPS and AMERICA.

With the high gas prices, the high cost of health insurance, our factory jobs and most of our jobs being outsourced overseas, the destruction of the family farms by major corporations, the need to repair bidges, roads and rails, the poor state of security at our borders, our airports, our seaports, etc.., etc... one has to wonder where the priorities of Old George W and the Congress are? It seems that the American people are at the bottom on the list of priorities,

Hey there is always Cuba . As many problems as have, I still love living in the good ole' USA.

 

[Wags]

Jes' puttin'' 2 + 2 together.. HRC promoter, stepping on over "to Chelsea", rounding up scorching hot secret documents.. Maybe Sandy Berger wasn't the only one stuffing things in his pants..



The people of East and West Berlin dismantled on their own it brick by brick. The Soviet bloc was untenable and I think Reagan knew it and got a nice Kodak moment out of it at little cost. What were they gonna do to plug the leaks in Hungary and Czechoslovakia, anyway? There's a domestic price to pay for exporting your ideology onto people who don't really have a hankering for it, and the Soviets had long been feeling the strain, just as we will with the Middle East endeavours.

Whether Iraq ever settles into stable statehood (and I kinda doubt this), I think people will remember less the glorious war of "liberation", than remember the lies about Saddam and 9/11 and nukes and bioweapons labs and getting completely and humiliatingly and predictably bogged down (no fault of the troops but piss-poor planning). We are no further along now than in 2004. WWII was waged and won by now. In Vietnam there really were communists, whose allies really did have nukes; to that extent the politicians forged during the Red Scare era were accurate. [And now Americans on the ER board talk about Vietnam as a retirement destination! Funny how that all worked out!]

--
You GO, Wags!!! Hundreds of thousands are paying the ultimate price for GWB's selfish petulance and hubris.

Think I linked this elsewhere but even such a jaded anti-Bushie as myself found many unpleasant suprises here (October, 2000 i.e. BBE -before the Bush Era):
The Accidental Candidate: Politics & Power: vanityfair.com



Yeh.. they thought it was funny, an "in-joke".. and then proceeded to send a man with the mental attitude and under-developed morality of a bratty 5-year-old off to run the Free World.

The Right talks about Bush Derangement Syndrome; well, I see it working the other way 'round.. SOMEhow there are people, his "friends", apparently, who allow him to act like a jerk.. because "he's so PLEASANT!?" Funny, I would ditch people who treated me like that. I guess these are some of the same people who, when he LOSES ALL THEIR MONEY.. ADMIRE him!!! Ye Gods and little fishes!

Thanks for the GO WAGS.

Let's see I beleive that the count is 3700 plus of OUR TROOPS killed, an estimated 25000 to 30000 of OUR TROOPS wounded and maimed, and an estimated 500000 to 1000000 Iraqi people killed, wounded and maimed. And this is not counting the sucides and the deaths of OUR TROOPS and OUR VETERANS who have returned home. How much more deaths and the wounding and maiming of OUR TROOPS and the IRAQI PEOPLE are needed before Old George W gets the message that his IRAQ WAR POLICIES are NOT WORKING?

OUR TROOPS, OUR VETERANS, AND THEIR FAMILIES are having to fight/SUE the government/VA in order to receive the proper medical care, the ratings and the compensation that they so richly deserve. What's up with that?This is how Old George W supports OUR TROOPS, OUR VETERANS and THEIR FAMILIES.

But the worse thing about all is that Old George W is building his LEGACY as a WAR TIME PRESIDENT on the blood and death of OUR TROOPS and the IRAQI PEOPLE who are stuck in the middle of HIS IRAQ WAR. But yet when he had a chance to go and fight in Vietnam he cried and wined and had his daddy pull some strings to keep him out of the line of fire. Folks that is what SOME in TEXAS might call a REAL MAN.

 

[talltrees]

Yeah, worked out just great ladelfina! Kennedy and Johnson send 60,000+ fine young Americans to horrible deaths in Viet Nam and you describe it as having "all worked out." Pretty pathetic..........[/quote]


YouBet, you obviously don't understand irony. You bet.

But, then again, you frozen, repressed righties don't understand much of anything.

 

[ladelfina]

talltrees, thanks. Yes, it was irony. Very bitter irony.

Three pages of this and still no 3-termers dare plainly state their case. A deafening silence!

References to Cuba don't count as to why Bush deserves one more DAY in office, much less a third term.

 

[bosco]

Ooooops, this has turned political and jingoistic. Time to ban myself.
Adidas.

very peculiar timing....it has been political and jingoistic from the beginning....and he participated as much as anyone. Oh well....

 

[youbet]

YouBet, you obviously don't understand irony.

I understand the irony of people like you laughing off 60,000+ American deaths in Viet Nam plus multiple times that amount of Vietnamese and neighboring countries. How hard is it for you guys to understand that a few decades going by doesn't erase it? Sicko.......