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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-16-2006, 10:31 PM   #61
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Re: The Liberals' War

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Originally Posted by samclem
Ooops, we were making progress.* Time to insert President Bush into the discussion.

*
You were making progress?

And how did your post advance that progress or address the previous one?
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-16-2006, 11:24 PM   #62
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Re: The Liberals' War

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Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go
There is a very high correlation between national poverty and countries with unrepresentative dictatorial governments that lack free market economies the rule of law and property rights. As much as you won't want to admit it, the Iraq war was supposed to change that in one small corner of the Middle East . . . too bad its not going according to plan.
You forgot to add that the dictators stay in power with the natural resources of the country (mostly oil now).. as they have money to spread around to keep them in power.. this also applies to Saudi Arabia by the way..
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-17-2006, 08:06 AM   #63
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Re: The Liberals' War

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Originally Posted by Martha
The Saudis sure are rich and Saudi Arabia is the source of many terrorists.
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Originally Posted by HaHa
The Saudi Royal family and their factota are rich. Most of the rest in Arabia are very poor. Saudi Arabia is a bomb about to go off.
Exactly.* But this presents a very practical problem, doesn't it.* It is easy to say "we need to raise the standard of living in the third world" as some sort of enlightened solution, but then ignore the thorny knot of how exactly to accomplish that goal.* How do the "wealthy nations" get the Saudi Princes or the Iranian Mullahs to share their oil wealth with their fellow citizens?* And beyond that, how do the wealthy nations encourage these rulers to expand their economies beyond natural resources and allow their citizens the economic freedom to make a better life for themselves?*

One way is by opening world markets and encouraging free trade . . . in which the US is a world leader (although some here would prefer closing our markets to the third world in hopes of protecting domestic jobs).* Another way is by actively encouraging democratic reform and free market reform around the world.* If anything the current administration has been accused of being too aggressive in promoting democracy abroad.* I think that is misplaced criticism.* For too long the world's democracies have tolerated and even supported dictatorships in the name of "stability."* Modern terrorism is a direct result of that Faustian bargain.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-17-2006, 12:27 PM   #64
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Re: The Liberals' War

I don't believe that we could materially change the way the resource dictatorships function without deploying neutron bombs.

Very likely the Marshall Plan was the first and last nation building that anyone is going to do on this planet.

I don't think we should even try. I think we should stay strong militarily, pick some small Reagan style practice fights that we can win, every now and then bomb the hell out of someplace deserving of it without warning, and otherwise keep our powder dry for the inevitable showdown.

Much of the money we are spending in the Middle East should be spent building an alternate energy system. Oil is why we are in Iraq rather than N. Korea or the Sudan.

Politicians could be replaced by an algorithm with an appropriate degree of randomization. Though its hard to imagine anything more random appearing at least than the current administration. Not that there is anything wrong with that.*

Ha
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-17-2006, 01:49 PM   #65
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Re: The Liberals' War

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Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go
Exactly.* But this presents a very practical problem, doesn't it.* It is easy to say "we need to raise the standard of living in the third world" as some sort of enlightened solution, but then ignore the thorny knot of how exactly to accomplish that goal.* How do the "wealthy nations" get the Saudi Princes or the Iranian Mullahs to share their oil wealth with their fellow citizens?* And beyond that, how do the wealthy nations encourage these rulers to expand their economies beyond natural resources and allow their citizens the economic freedom to make a better life for themselves?*
Apropos of nothing, I suppose, but I was struck by the parallels between the way things are in Saudi and the rapidly increasing income and wealth stratification in the US. Ain;t gonna be that long before we have the same promlems at home, IMO.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-17-2006, 04:53 PM   #66
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Re: The Liberals' War

I say we give all of our money to the poor!!

You go first...
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-17-2006, 10:14 PM   #67
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Re: The Liberals' War

Very nice thread about how to handle the Islamist extremism. That got me thinking.

It is possible that anything we try to do to solve this problem, which threatens us, would actually make it worse. Delay the recovery? For some illnesses it is advised not to take any antibiotics but stay in bed quietly for a while.

Any attempt to correct the problem may in fact exacerbate. In this case the best option is to barricade ourselves until Islam reforms itself; whichever time it will take any religion changes over time. Christians used to convert by force and kill infidels as well. Way back when... Inquisition and etc. Things are different now and the changes came from within. No other cultural groups - I think - are responsible for this change.

The reactions to the Pope's comments and the the Danish Cartoons may in fact be a clue that Islam is raw right now and that those "interventions" are not helping... Kind of obvious

If this is true the Liberals should really promote what the Conservatives are unfairly accusing them to do.

I know I will regret that post. : I know I will get the Ostrich head in the sand preWW2 Munich story back at me.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-17-2006, 11:51 PM   #68
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Re: The Liberals' War

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I know I will regret that post.
I know how you feel, perinova.* I left for the weekend expecting this thread to deteriorate into name calling and worse.* But no such thing has happened!* I return on a Sunday night to find reasoned and educated debate and, incidentally, food for thought!

Let me humbly suggest a break in the action to congratulate everyone on this thread.* Well DONE, one and all!
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-18-2006, 12:19 AM   #69
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Re: The Liberals' War

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Originally Posted by perinova
Very nice thread about how to handle the Islamist extremism. That got me thinking.

It is possible that anything we try to do to solve this problem, which threatens us, would actually make it worse. Delay the recovery? For some illnesses it is advised not to take any antibiotics but stay in bed quietly for a while.

Any attempt to correct the problem may in fact exacerbate. In this case the best option is to barricade ourselves until Islam reforms itself; whichever time it will take any religion changes over time. Christians used to convert by force and kill infidels as well. Way back when... Inquisition and etc. Things are different now and the changes came from within. No other cultural groups - I think - are responsible for this change.

The reactions to the Pope's comments and the the Danish Cartoons may in fact be a clue that Islam is raw right now and that those "interventions" are not helping... Kind of obvious

If this is true the Liberals should really promote what the Conservatives are unfairly accusing them to do.

I know I will regret that post. : I know I will get the Ostrich head in the sand preWW2 Munich story back at me.
Actually.. that is one of the thoughts that I have had.. no Islamist can come into the country for any reason... but, you might say, that is tarnishing the whole group even if they have nothing to do with the terrorist... well, tough.. get it fixed and then we will open up again.. if it takes 50 years or 100 years.. so what.. I know this is not a good way to 'fix' the problem.. but it is a thought...
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-18-2006, 07:08 AM   #70
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Re: The Liberals' War

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Originally Posted by Texas Proud
Actually.. that is one of the thoughts that I have had..* no Islamist can come into the country for any reason...
So you are planning on repealing that little Constitutional thingy about the gummint not making laws about religion? Good luck with that.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-18-2006, 07:25 AM   #71
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Re: The Liberals' War

Quote:
Originally Posted by perinova
It is possible that anything we try to do to solve this problem, which threatens us, would actually make it worse. Delay the recovery? For some illnesses it is advised not to take any antibiotics but stay in bed quietly for a while.

Any attempt to correct the problem may in fact exacerbate. In this case the best option is to barricade ourselves until Islam reforms itself; whichever time it will take any religion changes over time.
If the extremists are what they say they are (and their actions see to coinfirm that they are) they must realistically envision a century(ies) long struggle to restore a Caliphate. I can't see how we can sit things out - unless we can divest ourselves of the need for mideast oil.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-18-2006, 08:22 AM   #72
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Re: The Liberals' War

To withdraw from exposure to Islam we would also need to outlaw any Islamic religious organizations inside the borders as well as not allowing entry to Islams.

We would need some major reworking of the Constitution. Not sure if what we finished with would be better or worse?
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-18-2006, 08:33 AM   #73
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Re: The Liberals' War

The problem with just sitting here and letting things go is the radical Muslims won't see a reason to change. *If there is no struggle against a force (radical Muslims in this case) then the force will keep doing what it is doing. *

You cited the Inquisition. *The Inquisition stopped because more moderate heads came to power and looked at the scripture and the craziness going on in the name of God. *These people noticed no where in the Christian scripture were the atrocities of the Inquisition sanctioned. *If the people caught up on the wrong side of the Inquisition just sat back and let themselves be destroyed, then there would not have been any craziness to reform.

If we just sit back and let radical Muslims do what they want then that will result in one of two endings. *World conversion to Islam or the slow destruction of all non Muslims. *The moderates would not see that there is any opposition to anything done by the radicals and not oppose their actions. *By fighting against what the radical are doing, there will be bloodshed. *Hopefully more sooner than later more moderate heads will step up in Islam and start pointing out that Islam is a peaceful, loving religion not a hateful destructive one. *Only then will change be an option for the entire religion.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-18-2006, 10:30 AM   #74
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Re: The Liberals' War

I see the terrorists as a bunch of hormone charged teenagers with guns. They look like adults, think (a bit?) like adults, but have the emotions of unbalanced teenagers, plus better weapons. They like the attention of the media--and the US war machine. There are only a few hundred of their leaders planning all the damage currently exhibited.

My problem: If we keep paying attention--as we currently do--to all the negative behaviors of these hormone infested psyches they will continue doing exactly they have been. Same war mongering input from us; same warmongering output from them. Something needs to change. We need a greater thinking capacity instead of going directly to their level. But not that we don't need guns too :.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-18-2006, 12:58 PM   #75
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Re: The Liberals' War

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The problem with just sitting here and letting things go is the radical Muslims won't see a reason to change. *If there is no struggle against a force (radical Muslims in this case) then the force will keep doing what it is doing. *

You cited the Inquisition. *The Inquisition stopped because more moderate heads came to power and looked at the scripture and the craziness going on in the name of God. *These people noticed no where in the Christian scripture were the atrocities of the Inquisition sanctioned. *If the people caught up on the wrong side of the Inquisition just sat back and let themselves be destroyed, then there would not have been any craziness to reform.

If we just sit back and let radical Muslims do what they want then that will result in one of two endings. *World conversion to Islam or the slow destruction of all non Muslims. *The moderates would not see that there is any opposition to anything done by the radicals and not oppose their actions. *By fighting against what the radical are doing, there will be bloodshed. *Hopefully more sooner than later more moderate heads will step up in Islam and start pointing out that Islam is a peaceful, loving religion not a hateful destructive one. *Only then will change be an option for the entire religion.
It is human nature to want to rule the world.*

The facts are that the US is the top power in the world right now and the Judeo-Christian philosophy is the foundation of how people in the west think and act.

Those not in this western-style group are just following the human nature urge to take over from us.* Nothing new in history.* This type of thing has happened throughout history.

Now the important point:* We have to be smarter than them and realize what they are trying to do before it is too late.* Then we have to act upon it to squash their attempts at destroying us.* We either destroy them or they destroy us.

The goal of the US is to keep the world from changing since we are at the top.



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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-18-2006, 01:08 PM   #76
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Re: The Liberals' War

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. . .* Then we have to act upon it to squash their attempts at destroying us.* We either destroy them or they destroy us.

The goal of the US is to keep the world from changing since we are at the top.
This is where I disagree. We can't stop change. The Great Wall of China, The Inquisition, Nazi purification, . . . all failed to stop change. But they did not result in the destruction of Chinese, Spanish or German people. We need to understand and influence the change that is inevitable. And influence by example always has greater impact than influence by words or force. When we choose to influence these changes by going to war, torturing prisoners and abandoning our own freedoms, the world sees the "top power" on the globe using these tactics and promptly follows our lead.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-18-2006, 01:17 PM   #77
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Re: The Liberals' War

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We need to understand and influence the change that is inevitable. And influence by example always has greater impact than influence by words or force.
No doubt that's what was in mind with this much improved version of the burka...



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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-18-2006, 01:32 PM   #78
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Re: The Liberals' War

You guys are finally on the right track. Rather than shooting at our Muslim friends, we need to win their hearts and minds with porn and playstations. Show them the path to Western Enlightenment.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-18-2006, 01:44 PM   #79
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Re: The Liberals' War

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Originally Posted by retire@40
It is human nature to want to rule the world.*

The facts are that the US is the top power in the world right now and the Judeo-Christian philosophy is the foundation of how people in the west think and act.

Those not in this western-style group are just following the human nature urge to take over from us.* Nothing new in history.* This type of thing has happened throughout history.

Now the important point:* We have to be smarter than them and realize what they are trying to do before it is too late.* Then we have to act upon it to squash their attempts at destroying us.* We either destroy them or they destroy us.

The goal of the US is to keep the world from changing since we are at the top.
I agreed with most of this except the part about destroy or be destroyed. I don't think that is required. All that is needed is to encourage the more moderate members of Islam to stand up and take back their religion. Unfortunately I don't see a short struggle with this.
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Re: The Liberals' War
Old 09-18-2006, 01:49 PM   #80
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Re: The Liberals' War

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You guys are finally on the right track.* *Rather than shooting at our Muslim friends, we need to win their hearts and minds with porn and playstations.* *Show them the path to Western Enlightenment.
Yeah, if every person in the Muslim world owed 1/3 of their annual income in credit card debt, I don't think we'd be too worried about bombers and insurgents.
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