The sky really is falling...

The SM-3 won't have an explosive warhead, rather, the kinetic energy of the strike will be enough to pulverize the satellite.

Fair enough on the hydrazine, but I'm not sure there's much difference between an explosive warhead and the kinetic energy of a collision at those closing speeds. LEO velocities are around 8 km/s, say the interceptor is traveling at another 4-5 km/s, and depending on the angle of collision you could easily have over 10 km/s. Doesn't take a lot of mass for the m*v^2 to get really large. One of the shuttles came back years ago with a windshiled that had a small crater in it, close to shattering. Turned out it was a collision with a small paint chip on orbit.
 
It's pretty cool, ain't it! :) Hopefully the first one will score a direct hit, and hopefully they have an HD camera strapped to a high altitude plane of some sort taking good footage we can all watch on youtube!
 
It's pretty cool, ain't it! :) Hopefully the first one will score a direct hit, and hopefully they have an HD camera strapped to a high altitude plane of some sort taking good footage we can all watch on youtube!

I'm sure they will have some type of high quality video. I'm also sure that if they do the intercept at night, anyone within view will be able to get a home video from their back yard. I still remember watching pieces of Skylab break up and re-enter.
 
I'm sure they will have some type of high quality video. I'm also sure that if they do the intercept at night, anyone within view will be able to get a home video from their back yard. I still remember watching pieces of Skylab break up and re-enter.
No one's ever offered me a tour and they just won't talk about it, but after a nasty Space Shuttle launch a decade ago a bunch of "govt/military" cameras on top of the Waianae range were used to check out the heat-shield tiles.

I think there'll be excellent coverage. The only question is whether it'll be coming from the military ("We hit it! Click here to enlist!") or civilian ("Those bums couldn't hit the broad side of a space station!!").
 
No one's ever offered me a tour and they just won't talk about it, but after a nasty Space Shuttle launch a decade ago a bunch of "govt/military" cameras on top of the Waianae range were used to check out the heat-shield tiles.

Waianae range, are those the guys in Maui? There's some Air Force cameras there, but most of the workers are civilians. It's too much of a garden spot to have much chance of being assigned there while on active duty. I never even put it on my dream sheet, why waste a pick you know you won't get?
 
Waianae range, are those the guys in Maui? There's some Air Force cameras there, but most of the workers are civilians. It's too much of a garden spot to have much chance of being assigned there while on active duty. I never even put it on my dream sheet, why waste a pick you know you won't get?
Nah, those guys on Maui are all for scientific research, right? That's their story and they're stickin' to it.

The Waianae go up the western side of Oahu, including through Schofield Barracks, and at the north end there's a tiny little dirt road just south of the west side of Kaena Point that has barbed wire & locked gates all over it. Lotsa radomes up in them there hills.

You're right about the dream sheet. No one ever wanted to send me over to PMRF Barking Sands on Kauai to be the submarine [-]surfer[/-] liaison guy, either.
 
You're right about the dream sheet. No one ever wanted to send me over to PMRF Barking Sands on Kauai to be the submarine [-]surfer[/-] liaison guy, either.

Oh boy - they never let me fire the rail gun either(not my specialty/no Phd). But now that I'm ER'd with a decent nest egg - I console myself with 'Black Cat' and other top of the line fireworks every 4th.

:D

heh heh heh - :cool: 64/65 and getting younger every year!
 
One more thing, is it really necessary to wait until the space shuttle has landed, before taking the shot?
 
One more thing, is it really necessary to wait until the space shuttle has landed, before taking the shot?
You really have a lot of faith in guys like me with access to ordnance and fire control systems, don't you?

If I was a space shuttle astronaut, who'd worked with many naval aviators over the course of my career, I wouldn't even undock until the DoD swore to keep their hands off the triggers.
 
One more thing, is it really necessary to wait until the space shuttle has landed, before taking the shot?

No idea if the orbits/pathes cross - pssssst Thursday, the day after the Shuttle is supposed to land.

heh heh heh - :cool:. Dat's what my Google says. 40 to 60 mil - a tad more than I spent for fireworks!
 
Keep your eyes on the sky Nords. Looks like the amateurs have their ears to the ground.
SeeSat-L Feb-08 : USA 193 NOTAM released?
Hey, thanks!

Thursday 4:30 - 7 PM HST with CPA at 5:30. Wonder if we'll be able to see the SM-3 streaking up from Kauai to the west-- never tried to watch one of those from land before.

I wonder if commuters will be able to see the missile contrail during rush hour...

Of course this might be just practice or some other range operations. I thought the shot was supposed to be later this month or even in March. I bet the newspapers will be all over it tomorrow morning, but I'll post this on a local board.
 
You really have a lot of faith in guys like me with access to ordnance and fire control systems, don't you?

If I was a space shuttle astronaut, who'd worked with many naval aviators over the course of my career, I wouldn't even undock until the DoD swore to keep their hands off the triggers.

Had a beautiful view of the space shuttle and the space station last night crossing overhead right after sunset. They flew over the old Navy Roosevelt Roads and Vieques gunnery range. It was a horizon-to-horizon view or, as we used to say when I was in the satellite tracking bidness "hore to hore."

Interesting that we're bringing the shuttle down before taking the shot. I wonder if we've told that to the space station guys who are flying a few degrees behind the shuttle? I can hear the communications now ... "yeah guys, we're bringing the shuttle back, but you'll be fine. Nothing to worry about, just keep your space suit on when you go to sleep... oh, and keep a clean pair of shorts handy."
 
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Maybe the Navy can hold a raffle (which missile makes first impact) as a fund raiser and lower our taxes?
 
Looks like they moved up the shot to Wednesday night. Itchy trigger finger?
I did the time conversion wrong*, that NOTAM is for Wednesday around the time when the satellite is expected to be overhead (5:30 PM HST).

Rumor is the shot will be from PMRF (where the instrumentation is) rather than off Maui. But I'll try to look both ways.

I think at least one flag officer is afraid that the chain of command will change their mind before the ordnance is released...

In an instance of supreme irony, my spouse (a Navy Reserve emergency-planning officer) has been asked to get ready for a day or two of duty when the Army activates their DCO to watch the Navy splatter hydrazine all over the [-]islands[/-] troposphere.



*Sheesh, I can't even frickin' convert from ZULU to HST anymore. Well, that settles it, I can't ever go back to work again.
 
I'll have to wait for the video-- I didn't see a thing. The weather was overcast around here and the missile might've already been above the cloud cover by the time it was over my horizon.

Spouse was on two-hour standby but cooler heads prevailed and the Army [-]didn't want to waste the money[/-] decided not to call in Reservists to man the emergency-response command center. Or maybe they realized that the hydrazine tank was going to land on Texas, not Oahu.

As for LAKE ERIE, I'll bet the paint is already dry on the satellite silhouette added to the missile launcher! Whew, and good for them. I can't imagine having to knock down a target with SECDEF, VCJCS, and STRATCOM wandering around looking over my shoulder and offering helpful suggestions. Wonder if the CO gets a DMSM or a LOM for his end-of-tour award...
 
Really happy for the crew of LAKE ERIE, I'm sure somebody is going to get an early look out of this one.
 
I'm sure the spacetrackers will be busy for a while mopping up the mess -- tracking and cataloging any pieces of junk that won't decay right away. "Sorry guys, all leave is canceled until further notice." I had to do that many years ago after some space breakups. Good shot Navy, but how about shooting at sea targets now?
 
Some observations.
1. This FIA satellite was in low enough orbit that atmospheric drag will eventually bring down all the pieces. Anything having a non-round profile will have high coefficients of drag. So the pieces will come down.
2. Having 1000lbs of hydrazine indicates this was a fairly high mass object that did a lot of maneuvering about it's own CG during daily passes (augmenting it's CMG capability for quick target changes) and also the huge amount of hydrazine would allow it to be delta-v'd as required. Repositioning nodally or re-boosted after drag induced orbit decay.

I think our reason for shooting it down was first and foremost to ensure destruction of the encryption chips (Crypto keys) and hardened computers with the command authentication algorithms. Inside a massive spacecraft these might have survived re-entry.

But the hydrazine ruse then provided a great cover story to test our, newly proven (as of Wed) anti-sat capability.

Well done to the Navy. Good show.


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/11/washington/11satellite.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&pagewanted=all#step1
 
Some observations.
1. This FIA satellite was in low enough orbit that atmospheric drag will eventually bring down all the pieces. Anything having a non-round profile will have high coefficients of drag. So the pieces will come down.

First, you may be completely correct, hopefully you are -- we'll know in a few days what, if anything, is left. Second, I agree, the Navy did a good job. As much as I hate to admit it, the Navy does a better job at a lot of these things than the Air Force. But, they don't have as much time to play golf.

Now, as far as the pieces coming down, yes they will eventually come down but here is the potential problem, based on having been a spacetracker for several years when on active duty. It's about delta-v. When the collission happened it would most likely have been head-on. Most pieces coming off the satellite would receive a negative delta-v, in the direction opposite the collission vector, as what happens when two billiard balls strike. That's good, because the pieces are slowed down and they reenter even faster.

Some pieces will receive delta-v at other angles, though, and the problem would be with pieces that received positive delta-v. That can happen because you are striking a big object with a small object. At closing speed of 10 or more km/sec, parts of the big satellite would be ahead of the collision point when propelled forward by parts of the collision, whether physical particles or outgas explosions from the vaporized hydrazine.

Parts that get positive delta-v act as if they have been injected into a minimum energy (Hohmann) elliptical transfer orbit. Their previous position becomes a new perigee, and they go into an elliptical orbit with apogee at a higher altitude depending on the amount of delta v they received. I did some back of the envelope calculations, and figured a delta v of 3 km/sec, about 30% of the collision velocities, would be enough to transfer a piece into a 2000km apogee elliptical orbit. That piece would still come down to the lower orbit at perigee, where it would encounter the higher drags that you mentioned but, based on orbital models, they would have a lifetime of a year or more (orbital debris models are highly inaccurate, especially for elliptical orbits). And what makes it more of a problem is that an elliptical orbit of that nature intersects the LEO orbits of many other satellites, including the space station. Still, there's a lot of space out there, so the chances of a collision are small but nonzero.

Bottom line, I'm not disagreeing with what you said, in fact, you are probably correct. Just pointing out the uncertainties, and the fact that orbital debris is very hard to predict or track. The smaller the piece, the more unstable the orbit, and oftentimes we don't even know a piece of debris is there.

Now, having had to refresh some brain cells from long ago, I do not guarantee the above is completely correct. In fact, hope I got it wrong so I don't get recalled.

P.S. You may have a point with the cryptos, hadn't thought about that.
 
My questions:

1. I figured that the smaller pieces (football and smaller) would burn up as they reentered, but from your post, Soon, it sound like that's not true. What burns and what just gets hot?

2. Anyone know why the satellite failed in the first place? I've read power supply failure.

3. Was fixing it as part of a shuttle mission an option?
 
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