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Re: Where to buy a bare-bones PC?
Old 07-13-2005, 01:23 PM   #21
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Re: Where to buy a bare-bones PC?

Coming from the mainframe world of computing, I get a sense of deja-vu reading these discussions. One of these days someone is going to dream up the concept of "centralized computing" and revolutionize the industry.
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Re: Where to buy a bare-bones PC?
Old 07-13-2005, 02:22 PM   #22
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Re: Where to buy a bare-bones PC?

Right Mr. Wab. Threads are great for many things: clean design (reduce need for low level ISR and scheduling), responsive UI, and multiprocessing. Note, you don't need threads to support multiprocessing either (but it's sure more convenient). Once worked on an app that ran across 10 processors - one thread.

Fixed/floating point doesn't matter, both can be accelerated if the app is designed right. See the mpeg->DivX conversion benchmarks (fixed point).

XP home does not support multiple processors (but I think it does support multiple cores). On windows, you need XP Pro if you have more than one microprocessor (sockets).

The reason why the mp3 conversion can benefit is because it's a batch process. I select dozens of files and tell iTunes to convert. By default it plays and converts at the same time, this behavior can also benefit.

I don't agree that very few people will benefit from multiple cores. Lots of people use photoshop, DV cameras, play audio as they work, use ClearType. As CPUs become more powerful (using multiple cores) more applicatons are enabled (and new classes developed). Remember when SIMD was introduced on the Pentium? A new class of applications were enabled. Granted that better system performance (and new apps) requires improvements to memory io, mass storage, and network.

Sure, if all you do is read email and browse web pages a 1GHz pentium is OK. Problem is 'they' keep forcing those software upgrades!
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Re: Where to buy a bare-bones PC?
Old 07-13-2005, 02:45 PM   #23
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Re: Where to buy a bare-bones PC?

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Well, I explained the difference to you in an earlier post, but you don't have to take my word for it, the net will explain it to:
Seems like we are getting caught up in a semantics argument. That is a link to just "multiprocessing". Of course there is multiprocessing; that's what multithreaded applications do; they multiprocess. YOU were saying there are "multiprocessing apps". I was trying to clarify that they have a term for these kind of applications, and they're called multithreaded applications, not multiprocessing applications.

Semantics arguments are silly. Can we move on?
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Re: Where to buy a bare-bones PC?
Old 07-13-2005, 02:58 PM   #24
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Re: Where to buy a bare-bones PC?

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Fixed/floating point doesn't matter, both can be accelerated if the app is designed right.* See the mpeg->DivX conversion benchmarks (fixed point).
Both can be accelerated yes, but 2 floating point intensive applications will cripple a single core cpu, and a dual core will do this with ease.* *In contract, looping doom 3, and browsing on the side can be easily done with a P4 that supports HT technology (or heck, even one that doesnt) because browsing, though it does take some cpu cycles, is anyting but floating point intensive. So.... it does matter.

Quote:
XP home does not support multiple processors (but I think it does support multiple cores).* On windows, you need XP Pro if you have more than one microprocessor (sockets).
That's probably true (regarding XP home supporting the dual cores) but i'm not really sure how microsoft is pulling that off with windows.* *To the OS/programs, the dual cores will look exactly like a dual cpu system.* These new cores literally have every part duplicated twice on the die;* they dont share anything.

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The reason why the mp3 conversion can benefit is because it's a batch process.* I select dozens of files and tell iTunes to convert.* By default it plays and converts at the same time, this behavior can also benefit.
Perhaps it does that by default, but i personally wouldnt play files while i convert them.* My pc's so fast, i'd probably just convert them real quick, then play them later.* But yes doing any 2 cpu intensive tasks would benefit by these new cpu's.

Quote:
I don't agree that very few people will benefit from multiple cores.* Lots of people use photoshop, DV cameras, play audio as they work, use ClearType.* As CPUs become more powerful (using multiple cores) more applicatons are enabled (and new classes developed).* Remember when SIMD was introduced on the Pentium? A new class of applications were enabled.* Granted that better system performance (and new apps)* requires improvements to memory io, mass storage, and network.
We agree here.
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Re: Where to buy a bare-bones PC?
Old 07-13-2005, 03:11 PM   #25
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Re: Where to buy a bare-bones PC?

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Originally Posted by azanon
I was trying to clarify that they have a term for these kind of applications, and they're called multithreaded applications, not multiprocessing applications.
I understand what you were trying to clarify, and I was just trying to explain how you are wrong.* *Multithreading refers to a single process with multiple threads of execution.* *It is a useful concept for both single- and multi-CPU architectures.* * Multiprocessing usually refers to a single application which consists of multiple *processes*, each of which can be allocated to a different CPU.* * They are different software architectures, but the distinction between a process and a thread is technical, and I am pretty certain you didn't appreciate that difference.* *You might want to look into it.

Quote:
These new cores literally have every part duplicated twice on the die;* they dont share anything.
I believe the dual-core chips share L2 cache, which makes them a different animal than dual-CPU systems.* *In some cases, sharing L2 cache may help, in other cases it may hurt vs dual-CPU.
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Re: Where to buy a bare-bones PC?
Old 07-13-2005, 03:28 PM   #26
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Re: Where to buy a bare-bones PC?

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I understand what you were trying to clarify, and I was just trying to explain how you are wrong.* *Multithreading refers to a single process with multiple threads of execution.* *It is a useful concept for both single- and multi-CPU architectures.* * Multiprocessing usually refers to a single application which consists of multiple *processes*, each of which can be allocated to a different CPU.
I never said otherwise.* Of course a conglomerate program that does upteen gillion things multiprocessors if* you ask said program to do 2 or more things.* *I have said from the very beginning 2 separate processes (whether its one or two programs) WILL be accelerated by a dual core cpu.* Thats why i see this as semantics; what does it really matter if its two independant programs or one program that does two or more independant functions? In kind, multithreaded applications will also be accelerated by them.* I have said this from the very beginning.

So before you call me wrong, first try to figure out what i'm saying.

Quote:
I believe the dual-core chips share L2 cache, which makes them a different animal than dual-CPU systems.* *In some cases, sharing L2 cache may help, in other cases it may hurt vs dual-CPU.
You believe wrong.* *They both have their own, independant on-die cache.* Want a link as proof or do you care to actually look into it yourself before you speak?

Yes if they had to share the cache, it might hurt performance.* *Course we're only talking about in theory here, because they both have their own cache.

(edit) i know you wont believe me so i'm going to go ahead and paste a snip from page 2 of anand's article on the dual core p4.

"As we mentioned in our IDF coverage, Intel has dropped the number 4 from their naming for their dual core parts.* The new dual core desktop CPUs will simply be called the Pentium D and the Pentium Extreme Edition.*

Both the Pentium D and Pentium Extreme Edition are nothing more than two 90nm Prescott 1M dies glued together.* That means that each core has its own 1MB L2 cache, and that also means that architecturally, these chips are no different than the single core Pentium 4s that are out today - other than the obvious dual core fact. "
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Re: Where to buy a bare-bones PC?
Old 07-13-2005, 03:50 PM   #27
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Re: Where to buy a bare-bones PC?

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Originally Posted by azanon
I never said otherwise.
Sorry, it must have been somebody else who told me that multithreading was invented for multiple CPUs and that there was no such thing as a multiprocessing application.* *

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They both have their own, independant on-die cache.
That's interesting.* *I just read up on the 800-series, and it looks like each core gets allocated 1MB L2 cache.* *Today's 600-series single-core CPU has 2MB L2 cache.* *It also looks like the dual-cores run at slower clocks, and the 2.80GHz version has hyperthreading disabled.* *So, not only will most users not see a performance imrprovement, but the single core CPUs are likely to be both less expensive and faster.
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Re: Where to buy a bare-bones PC?
Old 07-13-2005, 04:00 PM   #28
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Re: Where to buy a bare-bones PC?

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Sorry, it must have been somebody else who told me that multithreading was invented for multiple CPUs and that there was no such thing as a multiprocessing application.
There was still some loss that occurred under the guise of semantics. I have said a dual core can processor two separate, independant events faster. If i understand that, then what does all this other bickering matter.

Quote:
That's interesting. I just read up on the 800-series, and it looks like each core gets allocated 1MB L2 cache. Today's 600-series single-core CPU has 2MB L2 cache. It also looks like the dual-cores run at slower clocks, and the 2.80GHz version has hyperthreading disabled. So, not only will most users not see a performance imrprovement, but the single core CPUs are likely to be both less expensive and faster.
Good point. I'll be honest if it were me, i'd probably spend my bucks on a really fast single core, cause i'm a gamer, and i dont do other stuff at the same time.
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Re: Where to buy a bare-bones PC?
Old 07-13-2005, 04:04 PM   #29
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Re: Where to buy a bare-bones PC?

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Originally Posted by azanon
I have said from the very beginning 2 separate processes (whether its one or two programs) WILL be accelerated by a dual core cpu.
No, in order to see an improvment in performance the application must be designed in such a way that the load is distributed across multiple processors. (A single app can do this via parallel processing of data, or pipelining.) Take a typical simple example of 1 thread that does heavy duty processing,and another that handles UI. Although the UI may be offloaded to another processor the performance benefit is insignificant because the processor load is dominated by the other thread. Same for multiple applications. If one uses very little CPU, and the other lots the benefit will be very very small. That's why an app must be designed to expolit multiple processors. Adding threads doesn't necessarily help, it's how you add them that does.

Fixed/Float doesn't matter. What matters is CPU resource consumption (count CPU cycles.) Two different apps that swamp the CPU using fixed or float instructions will benefit provided the memory can keep up.
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Re: Where to buy a bare-bones PC?
Old 07-13-2005, 04:39 PM   #30
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Re: Where to buy a bare-bones PC?

TH, I'd like to commend you for your admirable restraint in not jumping in between Wab & Az on the semantics of how big their multiprocessed threads are...

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Re: Where to buy a bare-bones PC?
Old 07-13-2005, 05:04 PM   #31
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Re: Where to buy a bare-bones PC?

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Originally Posted by Nords
TH, I'd like to commend you for your admirable restraint in not jumping in between Wab & Az on the semantics of how big their multiprocessed threads are...
Most of the pleasure I get from posting in this thread is knowing that TH must be chomping at the bit like never before. Whoaaaa, boy.
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Re: Where to buy a bare-bones PC?
Old 07-13-2005, 11:31 PM   #32
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Re: Where to buy a bare-bones PC?

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Originally Posted by wabmester
Most of the pleasure I get from posting in this thread is knowing that TH must be chomping at the bit like never before.* *Whoaaaa, boy.
Watching you & Az geek-smack each other may be fun, but baiting a guy who's demonstrating good behavior is just plain mean!
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