Fat Fire-ees - are you out there?

[calmloki]

At that point it's Mr. Creosote - just one last wafer thin mint..

 

[Chuckanut]

The trouble with assigning "Fat" to a spending amount is that we've learned here that a SWR of $200K in Iowa would be very, very fat but in Manhattan would be lean indeed.

marko, you make to much sense. Obviously, you have joined the group of dangerous radicals who infest this site.

In any event I find this thread highly entertaining. By all means keep it going.

 

[Chuckanut]

It has been fun, but there's an empty feeling, too. I was so used to insisting on value for every dollar, and it surely does not feel as if we get 3X the value and enjoyment in return for spending 3X as much.

I agree. Getting value for the dollar is still important to me.

To continue your air travel example, buying the cheap budget airline seat with very tight leg room and fees for everything is not good value for me. Paying 1st Class prices to get a few fancy extras is also not good value.

Paying 10-20% more for my seat to get more legroom, more width, and free adult beverages is good value for me.

For me it's not Fat or Skinny Fire. It' Value-Fire. That's a reason to celebrate!

 

[Dave in VA]

Retired 4 years ago, with an anticipated burn rate of about $250K a year. Actual rate has been closer to $300k due to discretionary spending on vacations and house repairs. Due to bull market, net worth has gone up since retirement, so this rate is sustainable for us. Currently 63, DW is 61. Once we hit medicare and social security, will have even more discretionary income. Big thing we decided not to do is long term health insurance, think we can self insure. Being retired military, have a pension and Tricare, and that helps a lot!

 

[athena53]

Always intrigued by folks getting by comfortably on $20-$40K.
We spend that on taxes alone!

I'm single and in a LCOL area. I could get down to $40K by cutting charity, travel, taxes and the mortgage payment all down to zero. It's definitely easier if your house is paid off. Not sure how taxes would work if I were living on SS and my two non-COLA pensions with no investment income- maybe not zero, but a lot less than what I'm paying. Similarly, I'd probably get breaks on property taxes and maybe even Medicare premiums if I were low-income. I also assumed no cutbacks in gifts, groceries, restaurants, etc.- probably room to squeeze out a few thousand $$ more, and I typically spend $1,000/year on jewelry (the real stuff, so it doesn't but that much).


I'm grateful I don't have to- I just had a session with my dentist over a troublesome tooth that will need a new crown and will likely need a root canal in the future- or I can say the heck with throwing $2K into work that has a finite lifetime and just go for an implant.


I'm getting an implant.

 

[Retch The Grate]

I suppose that is the rub for most of us... we get used to a certain standard of living prior to RE and don't want to give up much if we don't have to.

that's certainly my situation. My numbers say I am good to go if I lived like I did in my 20s. But I want to be able to support living in the bay area at prices now ($1435/month rent for a 700sq. ft apartment back in 2002 at the height of rental costs, vs $4150 for an 1100sq. ft house now), cover the full weight of potential out of pocked medical costs, travel a lot more, internationally, and fancier, etc.. So for now, keeping on working towards a fatFire goal. We'll see if I keep doing that, or decide somewhere earlier that time is more valuable than more disposable income.

 

[Shanky]

I wouldn't mind a few discussions on the mechanics and mental fortitude required to manage a fat FIRE. I am targeting $150k but the numbers show that $75k is enough and $100k is plenty. I want the extra $50k / year for peace of mind, travel adventures, gifting, charities and who knows what else. Not much into material stuff at this point, so it comes down to experiences and philanthropy (focused on pet rescue).

Right now the data show that we have enough for $100k. I am working another 3 years to get to $150k. Why not just retire now? I ask myself that every day.

Working three more years for money you don't need? Those three years could have been the best 10 to 20% of your retirement. You must love your job.

 

[RobbieB]

You said he doesn't need it.

He said he wants it. There's a difference.

 

[HI Bill]

I am working another 3 years to get to $150k. Why not just retire now? I ask myself that every day.

At 52, how's your health? Is it worth giving up 3 of your remaining years (with likely the best health you'll enjoy for the remainder of your life) for $ you don't need?
I'm torn with the same question. I'm also 52 and could retire with $100K now, or work another 3 years to be able to spend $30K more annually. It would mean more travel initially, if I don't have a major health issue crop up at age 56. I already have a BRVO (branch retinal vein occlusion, or blood clot), that's affected my vision since age 47. If it were to get worse, I could lose the effective use of one eye. Fortunately, the other eye is fine for now. So, for me, a lower budget with a greater chance of being healthy enough to enjoy it is more important than MORE.

 

[The Cosmic Avenger]

For me the retirement income is not the foremost reason we're delaying retirement, it's that we want to keep working while our child goes to college so that they can graduate without debt. Besides, even if I retired now or soon, I am not sure my partner would, so I would not enjoy it as much. I think once we're past paying for college (and maybe medical school!!), I can get them to ease up on work, and then maybe they'll find that they like it, especially if I can show them the results of the Fido RIP calculator.

 

[jollystomper]

My FIRE plan is budgeting 125K expenses for a comfortable retirement. Our "bare bones apocalypse" budget is $70K. The various modeling tools and former Megacorp financial planner gave us a a range of $150K-$210K for safe retirement spending. So we will see how "fat" our FIRE is going to be. It is too soon to tell so far as I am still getting severance pay so it feels more like "long vacation" instead of FIRE.

 

[DawgMan]

For me the retirement income is not the foremost reason we're delaying retirement, it's that we want to keep working while our child goes to college so that they can graduate without debt. Besides, even if I retired now or soon, I am not sure my partner would, so I would not enjoy it as much. I think once we're past paying for college (and maybe medical school!!), I can get them to ease up on work, and then maybe they'll find that they like it, especially if I can show them the results of the Fido RIP calculator.

This has always been part of my plan. I want to have all my kids off the payroll (as much as possible). Last kid (kid 4) graduates in spring 2019 so I have planned for a clean tax year break at the end of 2019. I anticipate some potential kid support for say 12 months thereafter until she hopefully moves out on her own, but I can tell you from experience to include at least 1 yr of potential kid support after college (it could be min expenses such as room/board... or not). 2 of my 4 are married so I have a separate wedding budget for the other 2 girls. None the less, I wanted this type of clean break before I retire.

 

[cyber888]

I’ve heard of Fat FIRE recently. Most of the Fat Fires are spending $100k-$150K. $300K per year is more than Fat FIRE .. it’s more like Gluttony Fat Fat Fire. If you are second-guessing yourself about spending $300K, then you should evaluate your situation. If you have 40 years expenses or at least $12 Million .. guess you will be fine.

 

[Bigdawg]

my one last thought on FAT FIRE: When I finally ER I don't want to have to think about or work too hard on the budget/finances. What I am saying is that I will most likely spend about 10% too much overall because I do not want to be meticulous in my planning/spending. I will have it all on cruise control and if we want something we will get it and not have to think about it. That 10% will be in my discretionary of course. Lean fire would mean detailed planning and accountability. I am there now. I am past lean FI and close to FAT FI. If we ER now our core expenses would be about 65% of our annual take even after taxes. I want core expenses to be 50% or less than annual take when we fully ER. It just goes against my nature to be so meticulous and detailed. I do it at work because I have to.

 

[DawgMan]

A little over 1 year later I thought I would share a little bit of my experiment. End of this year is/was/could still be my planned launch, although I will most likely go with a slow fade-out in my business over the earlier of the next 18 - 24 months or a recession. I have revised my plan this way in hopes of finding something a little more meaningful to sink my teeth into... so far in my "partial retirement" I am spending too much time staring at the ceiling.

Due to a big year in business, I decided to completely take the governor off spending and see what my wife and I might spend if we just did what we wanted to do (no budget analyzing). While the year is not over, here is what I have found (a few nuggets) along with comments relative to how it might play out in full blown RE (no earned income)...

Travel: $35K/yr (includes trip to France, family week beach trip for 12 paid 100% by pops, other weekender trips). Honestly, this year feels like a full year of travel and suspect it will be close to where i might top out in RE... and not every year. I am thinking $20K - $25K may be more typical as a budget.

Wife's Clothes: $14K/yr... yes, she likes to shop. Remember, this is my experiment. This will not be sustainable... and she knows it.

Groceries/Booze: $23K... that's the pace we are on. We like to entertain and enjoy a decent bottle of wine. With 4 kids/spouses/dates and a bunch of in-laws, family entertaining can get large. I suspect this will be similar, but hopefully go down some.

Restaurants: $14K... current pace. We enjoy eating out. Suspect this number will stay about the same.

Other than about another $100K of nonrecurring expenses (i.e. new car, home improvements), most of my other expenses were somewhat inline with previously set budget.

As mentioned in one of my earlier posts, there is significant discretion in my planned burn rate (doesn't mean I will spend it all). Due to my income this year and investment returns, I am fortunate to see my pot grow much more than expected so my burn rate is now a fair amount higher than previously planned, should I decide to spend it. Conclusion...while my little experiment moved the needle some, it's clear it won't be easy to just blow the dough on myself!

Anyone have an expensive indulgent habit they have kept running in RE?

 

[Luck_Club]

boating.. (in two locations)
a bit over your restaurant budget.

 

[RobLJ]

My favorite Robert Newton (Long John Silver) quote:
"Them's that dies 'lll be the looky ones!"

 

[SnowballCamper]

(14+23)/365=$103 per day on food would definitely make me Fat.

 

[DawgMan]

(14+23)/365=$103 per day on food would definitely make me Fat.

You got to taste the good stuff Snowman!

 

[SnowballCamper]

Yes. I do enjoy a fine meal once in a while. We’ll go on special occasions, but not regularly. And my wallet isn’t quite that fat either.

 

[RobbieB]

Going tomorrow, before the concert. Blow at least $150 on dinner for 2.

 

[RobLJ]

I suppose we're at 8+ and 9+ after SS starts in 4 years.

We target 20-25K for travel and luxuries. It's harder than one would think to spend freely after years of saving and preparing for the yewts to go to college.

I still can't justify flying first class internationally or particularly domestic. I'm not judging any of you; the price increase just offends me. I'd rather spend it on food and drinks once I get to the destination.

We're 5k over budget this year, but that includes 29k in solar panels. (The 3 weeks in Ireland in June/July--two weeks hiking and one in Dublin were worth every penny, but when you're hiking all day, the big spend is on dinner and drinks after you get in. It's travelling very economically, but it doesn't seem at all that way while doing it. The Irish may be the friendliest people on earth, besides hispanics in the Southwest.)

 

[Dtail]

(14+23)/365=$103 per day on food would definitely make me Fat.

We are still in good shape and spend 15k yearly on groceries/dining out, but does not include entertainment. lol

 

[kgtest]

Due to my income this year and investment returns, I am fortunate to see my pot grow much more than expected ...

If you look at the 1 year returns vs YTD you might change your mind.

 

[Teacher Terry]

Snow, I think the difference on the high food spend is that they are going to really expensive restaurants so dropping big amounts versus actually spending a hundred dollars a day on food.