Fidelity managed accounts

There is no such thing as a "good stop loss".

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-ERD50

Maybe a better way to have said it would be good down market management strategy. Alternatively sector rotation strategy. I'm extremely fearful of asset base erosion, through a buy and ride type of investing.

I became a PAS client in 2014. No clue what 2008’s performance would have been. I do know that they do shifts due to economic climate. They ask us what our risk tolerance is on a 1-10 scale - we have chosen 5. (If it was just me, I’d say 6, DW would say 4.) This affects what kind of investments they select. Also the withdrawal rate affects this.

Fidelity has an “RPM” score of how it thinks our money would last in an “underperforming” market. Our score pegs the meter at 150 - it doesn’t go higher.

I've heard many good things about fidelity PAS, from this board and another Uncle, who said he did fantastic last year. He has been using them for years, and can't remember a down year, and said he was like an 8 or something to that effect. Basically hands off, and collect checks, or watch the balance grow. Spoke with his Adviser, who told me if I couldn't work with him, but would need to work through the local office, and I could expect to be put in the same positions given the same risk tolerance answers.

It is on my list to explore further this year. Last year I bought into three managed positions in July Thomas Partners +10.7% & Robo adviser +7.5% through Charles Schwab, along with SCHD +15%. Even my dart board beat the "wealth manager" I'm overseeing for a sick relative, which is why I made bold move to cash.

The down side as I see it for managed money is the constant churn, and large % gain and loss on really small positions. Too many positions to follow, and often you see positions that you don't agree with from a broad economic picture perspective.
 
I became a PAS client in 2014. ... They ask us what our risk tolerance is on a 1-10 scale - we have chosen 5. (If it was just me, I’d say 6, DW would say 4.) This affects what kind of investments they select. ...

Now I'm curious, do they really just ask you to pick a number from 0-10? That is so subjective, and no reference point.

I think a more meaningful approach would be to show you historic results with different AA. Then you could see that aggressive generally shows high returns over time, with wide swings, while conservative means lower returns with smaller swings. But what does "5" mean?


Maybe a better way to have said it would be good down market management strategy. Alternatively sector rotation strategy. I'm extremely fearful of asset base erosion, through a buy and ride type of investing. ....

And I'm extremely fearful of asset base erosion, through a market timing/sector type of investing. :)

That, and the numerous studies showing that few active investors actually outperform the market over time.

-ERD50
 
0.3% doesn't seem too bad to me either, as there can be value in the expertise. DH helped MIL with finances when FIL passed away. They were paying something like 1.6% thru Wells Fargo Brokerage (referred by a friend!). It seemed as though VG was very helpful in transitioning to VG (maybe "in kind" investments or something like that?). Not exactly sure how it all worked as DH handled it.
 
OP - perhaps you want to tackle this task in stages, first transferring the IRA's as that should be simple and tax free even if some holdings "are special" and cannot transfer and need to be cashed out.
Then you can get the IRA's simplified from however many dozen stocks and funds they are in to a reasonable number.

This alone will result in some savings of fees.

I have no advice on the trust and look forward to hearing what happens.
 
The PAS from Fido is charging .9% (less than 1%) to manage my DH's ira worth 520k. I thought I was all that since I managed my own Acct worth just over 215k. Fido pointed out that all of my mutual funds cost varying amounts (expenses for each fund). The PAS doesn't have any fees besides the
.9% since they are institutional investments. The people that trade them do this for a living all day long. My husband's account has grown substantially since he started this. He's a "7" on the risk scale. I'm more conservative and I've done well, but typically he "makes" 3 times what I do on a given day.

I thought I wasn't paying much but if my average expenses is, say, .6%, I'm pretty close to paying .9 to have experts do this. It's fun to watch what they buy and sell.
 
I looked at PAS maybe ten years ago. It was very expensive! When added together with the fund fees I think it was ~2% fees.

It's probably changed since then.

Fidelity has been pushing Wealth Advisor Solutions to me recently. They were quoting .45% to build a bond ladder. I've told them where they could stuff their WAS guys. Look very hard at the costs and if these funds are proprietary.
 
... The PAS doesn't have any fees besides the .9% since they are institutional investments. The people that trade them do this for a living all day long. ...

I thought I wasn't paying much but if my average expenses is, say, .6%, I'm pretty close to paying .9 to have experts do this. It's fun to watch what they buy and sell.

But broad index funds that can do this (BND, VTI for example) have ERs of only 0.05% and 0.04%.

... The people that trade them do this for a living all day long. ...

And the studies show that despite that (or because of that!), they will probably not do better than those index funds.

On a $1M portfolio, the difference between 0.9% and .045% (50-50 blend BND/VTI) is $9,000 - $450 = $8,550, every year. On a $250K portfolio, still a large annual charge of $2,137.50.


It's fun to watch what they buy and sell.

And under perform (also consider taxes if this is a taxable account)? I can have a lot of fun for $2K or more :facepalm:

-ERD50
 
When they say they trade to made it tax-advantaged, they're harvesting losses but in doing so, wouldn't they be holding down gains?

Plus the frequency of transactions tends to suppress gains from what they could be overall?

In an up market, it might have been better to hold instead of sell and buy, sell and buy, etc.
 
When they say they trade to made it tax-advantaged, they're harvesting losses but in doing so, wouldn't they be holding down gains?

Plus the frequency of transactions tends to suppress gains from what they could be overall?

In an up market, it might have been better to hold instead of sell and buy, sell and buy, etc.

The transaction costs themselves are probably very small (but not the 0.9% overall).

I don't think tax loss harvesting holds down gains, it just keep realized gains down. But then those unrealized gains keep piling up. Depending upon your situation, you might be better taking the gains now. Like if pension/SS/RMDs get you in a higher tax bracket in the future.

I wonder if they analyze it that far out, or just proclaim they saved you in taxes this year, with the harvesting?

I should be in the bracket that allows for zero cap gains for a few years, so I definitely want to take gains now - tax-loss harvesting would negate that.

-ERD50
 
2017 wasn't much of a year for harvesting losses.

PAS fees are on a sliding scale, depending on assets managed.
 
But broad index funds that can do this (BND, VTI for example) have ERs of only 0.05% and 0.04%.

-ERD50

So just for kicks I checked out the value of BND Which is so cheap to buy and hold. If you purchased 5 years ago @ $83.73 per share it would be worth $81.26 today. For a loss of -2.9% Only -2.1% if you include coupons.. If you bought in 2015 you would have fared better with a +.9% Total return.

The VTI did pretty good at a doubling of the money over a 10 year period. But ouch the -36.97% in 2008.

No easy way is there.
 
So just for kicks I checked out the value of BND Which is so cheap to buy and hold. If you purchased 5 years ago @ $83.73 per share it would be worth $81.26 today. For a loss of -2.9% Only -2.1% if you include coupons.. If you bought in 2015 you would have fared better with a +.9% Total return. ...
Check those figures, they make no sense to me.

BND is paying a div of ~ 2.5% (maybe a bit less in previous years), so if the NAV was -2.9%, the total return would be much higher than -2.1%, and two different total return calculators showed BND to be > 9% positive for the past 5 year period.

But OK, in a rising interest rate environment, a total bond fund has not done well. It's there to provide some stability and rebalancing against the more volatile equity portion. Of course, it would be nice for its NAV to be up as well, but we don't always get what we want.


...
The VTI did pretty good at a doubling of the money over a 10 year period. But ouch the -36.97% in 2008. ....

See above. And per my sources, it doubled in just 5 years, and went up by 2.4x in 10 years (including the nasty, nasty 2008 plunge). Are you including divs? They are money too.

... No easy way is there.

Well, a 60/40 blend, not even rebalancing gave a 1.96x increase over 10 years (including the nasty, nasty 2008 plunge). That's about as easy as it gets.

And it sure doesn't seem to be easy for the average Joe/Joan to find a manager with a track record that is better than that.

-ERD50
 
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That was a big :confused: for me. OK, now I see #19 is:

19. If you have a strong belief, savor it. But don’t waste your time trying to convince others. They will make their own choices no matter what you tell them, and it will only bring you frustration. Live your faith and set an example. Live true to your beliefs and let that memory sway them.

It's a discussion - sharing, comparing information. It's how people learn. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I recall now, you just don't like these discussions. So why not just not partake in them?

You can choose or 'like' to have someone manage your investments (an FA, or a manged fund) - no skin off my nose. I don't think that changes the evidence that it sure doesn't seem to be easy for the average Joe/Joan to find a manager with a track record that is better than that. So why that response from you?

That's what the evidence says. And evidence gets discussed when another poster is comparing returns. If you don't want to use evidence, that's your business. I won't try to convince you otherwise. But my exchanges on this forum will be evidence based, when it applies.


-ERD50
 
+1 agree with ERD50. I respect [emoji110] choice to invest how you wish, but by exchanging ideas like, for example, I this post I hope a) learn something new for myself and/or b) somebody can learn something new from me, happy new year [emoji324]
 
Check those figures, they make no sense to me.

BND is paying a div of ~ 2.5% (maybe a bit less in previous years), so if the NAV was -2.9%, the total return would be much higher than -2.1%, and two different total return calculators showed BND to be > 9% positive for the past 5 year period.

But OK, in a rising interest rate environment, a total bond fund has not done well. It's there to provide some stability and rebalancing against the more volatile equity portion. Of course, it would be nice for its NAV to be up as well, but we don't always get what we want.




See above. And per my sources, it doubled in just 5 years, and went up by 2.4x in 10 years (including the nasty, nasty 2008 plunge). Are you including divs? They are money too.



Well, a 60/40 blend, not even rebalancing gave a 1.96x increase over 10 years (including the nasty, nasty 2008 plunge). That's about as easy as it gets.

And it sure doesn't seem to be easy for the average Joe/Joan to find a manager with a track record that is better than that.

-ERD50

I reviewed this on Yahoo finance. I mean no disrespect or anything of the sort. :flowers: I am truly interested in learning the marketable security piece. As a result of your post, two days ago I put the symbols in a spread sheet to investigate further with the reason being to avoid the fidelity management fee.

Perhaps I'm using the wrong tools, so I would be interested in the total return calculator you used. and how to properly analyze.

Annual Total Return (%) History
Year
BNDCategory
2017
3.58%N/A
2016
2.57%N/A
2015
0.39%0.41%
2014
5.96%5.68%
2013
-2.14%-1.86%
 
I reviewed this on Yahoo finance. I mean no disrespect or anything of the sort. :flowers: I am truly interested in learning the marketable security piece. As a result of your post, two days ago I put the symbols in a spread sheet to investigate further with the reason being to avoid the fidelity management fee.

Perhaps I'm using the wrong tools, so I would be interested in the total return calculator you used. and how to properly analyze.

Annual Total Return (%) History
Year
BNDCategory
2017
3.58%N/A
2016
2.57%N/A
2015
0.39%0.41%
2014
5.96%5.68%
2013
-2.14%-1.86%

Yahoo data works OK, but enter the time frame and just use the start end values on the 'historical data' tab. Use "adjusted" to show the effect of reinvested divs. A while back, the 'adjusted' seemed to only work if you downloaded the data to a spreadsheet, but it seems OK for me now (but I also switched from Chromium to FireFox browser). But it's obvious, adjusted just was the same as NAV when I saw the problem.

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BND/history?p=BND

Here's the values I got for NAV:

(81.26 ∕ 83.73) − 1 ≈ −0.029499582 ; matches your ~ -2.9%

but using 'adjusted' I got:

81.26 ∕ 74.32 ≈ 1.09338 ; so ~ 9.3%

A couple tools I use:

PerfCharts | Free Charts | StockCharts.com

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/backtest-portfolio

-ERD50
 
Yahoo data works OK, but enter the time frame and just use the start end values on the 'historical data' tab. Use "adjusted" to show the effect of reinvested divs. A while back, the 'adjusted' seemed to only work if you downloaded the data to a spreadsheet, but it seems OK for me now (but I also switched from Chromium to FireFox browser). But it's obvious, adjusted just was the same as NAV when I saw the problem.

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BND/history?p=BND

Here's the values I got for NAV:

(81.26 ∕ 83.73) − 1 ≈ −0.029499582 ; matches your ~ -2.9%

but using 'adjusted' I got:

81.26 ∕ 74.32 ≈ 1.09338 ; so ~ 9.3%

A couple tools I use:

PerfCharts | Free Charts | StockCharts.com

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/backtest-portfolio

-ERD50

Thank you the tools I've added them to the spread sheet.

I now see the correct adjusted value. I'm learning. :blush:

Thought about this exchange some more last night. My interest in adviser vs doing it myself, is compounded by some bad picks early in my investing career (3 went to zero), and my relatively good performance with investing in real estate (which offers total control). All of my gains or luck in marketable securities have happened in the past 10 years. The first 10 years were blah. In addition my wife has a TIAA/CREFF 50/50 fund, which hasn't really done much in 20 years.

So I'm exploring continuing forward with the do it yourself approach vs adviser route. My thinking is that an adviser should be re balancing according to macro economic trends to minimize risk and maximize gains just like an individual would do. I'm speaking with 2 different % of assets type advisers and 1 fee only adviser over the next couple of months.

My distaste of bonds is not because I truly dislike them, I just think as a macro economic trend the tide is against them at this point. Move the yield higher in a flat or falling interest rate environment, and I'm all in on bonds.

One final note with regard to adviser vs do it yourself. In my particular case DW shows no interest in investments and is easily mislead. So that lends itself more to having some independent adviser for at least some of the money in case something happens to me.
 
Thank you the tools I've added them to the spread sheet.

I now see the correct adjusted value. I'm learning. :blush: ...

Glad it could help. I've learned a lot from others on this forum, I'm pretty sure those two total return sites were from here too.

... Thought about this exchange some more last night. My interest in adviser vs doing it myself, is compounded by some bad picks early in my investing career (3 went to zero), ...

That's a psychology I've seen a few times. Someone has a bad experience with something, and rather than analyze what went wrong, and see if it makes sense to 'fix it', they just shun it. Sometimes that's the right thing to do, and sometimes an adjustment is all that's needed to get back on a positive track.

... and my relatively good performance with investing in real estate (which offers total control). All of my gains or luck in marketable securities have happened in the past 10 years. The first 10 years were blah. In addition my wife has a TIAA/CREFF 50/50 fund, which hasn't really done much in 20 years.

So I'm exploring continuing forward with the do it yourself approach vs adviser route. My thinking is that an adviser should be re balancing according to macro economic trends to minimize risk and maximize gains just like an individual would do. ... My distaste of bonds is not because I truly dislike them, I just think as a macro economic trend the tide is against them at this point. Move the yield higher in a flat or falling interest rate environment, and I'm all in on bonds..

But it doesn't seem that we can count on finding someone that can follow macro (or micro) trends well enough to bring an advantage. If they could, those studies would show it.

And I don't disagree with the view of bonds - we know they won't do well in a rising rate environment. But it seems the masses have missed the timing of that rate rise. And I don't think of bonds so much in terms of performance, but as that buffer that I can draw on if stocks take a big dive. So I just pretty much stick to my AA.

... One final note with regard to adviser vs do it yourself. In my particular case DW shows no interest in investments and is easily mislead. So that lends itself more to having some independent adviser for at least some of the money in case something happens to me.

Thanks for bringing that up. With the new year, it's a good time for me to focus and stop procrastinating, and update a simple set of instructions for DW. But an FA that understands and can be trusted to just do a simple index based plan could be the right choice for some.

My instruction sheet will show a switch from our current situation to my somewhat modest non-cola survivor benefits, her cola-lite modest pension, and survivor SS for her. And then a broad outline of expenses.

My investments are down to just a couple broad-based index funds (and some BRK in the taxable account to keep div income low for now). And after the pension SS, there shouldn't be much to withdraw, and with RMDs, more than enough.

Even though she has no interest in this financial stuff, she's plenty smart enough to grasp a plan like that if spelled out, and more if she had the interest.

OK, I'm gonna go work on that - NOW, I gotta stop procrastinating (and posting!) - ERD50
 
Had an interesting afternoon. My parents for some reason had IRA accounts at Waddell Reed in addition to Fidelity.

So we went in to sign for rolling over my father's IRA into my mother's IRA account.

The advisor there sensed there was more money and tried to get us to move more funds to invest with him.

If anything, my plan after the rollover is to move the IRA to VG, because they're charging $18 a year or quarter for an IRA and all they have in those accounts is a single fund.

He showed me this Sabrient UUT fund, which has been outperforming the S&P supposedly with a baker's dozen of stocks since 2008 or 2009.

These guys are pretty aggressive about their 1%.
 
...

He showed me this Sabrient UUT fund, which has been outperforming the S&P supposedly with a baker's dozen of stocks since 2008 or 2009.

These guys are pretty aggressive about their 1%.

But was he showing people that fund in 2008 and 2009? It's easy to pick one of the relatively few outperforming funds... in hindsight. :cool:

-ERD50
 
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