How bad is it in California?

[RonBoyd]

This is an issue that has been discussed extensively by the RV folks in the last several years -- various Google searches, such as this, will give you some idea.

Hawaii is, as Nords says, a special case but only in the sense of the weather. That combination of high-priced real estate and low wages is a growing problem everywhere -- the Ski Resorts of Colorado are examples of where the workers cannot afford to live where they work. (But there is no sleeping "on the beach" when it's 20º below.)

The dog I have in this fight has to do with the unintended consequences of these types of ordinances. I mentioned last week being unable to enjoy the National & State Parks in Hawaii because of the early evening closings -- I am sure that thinking will migrate to the mainland and won't that be fun. I should have also mentioned visiting a City Park (Botanical Garden) in the middle of Honolulu and finding only a single parking place. The rest of the slots were filled by vehicles used as temporary housing -- meaning that most of the people's possesions were spread on the ground around the vehicle and the many scruffy-looking individuals were not "visiting" the Park. I really had to convince myself to leave my vehicle there while I went inside --very uncomfortable feeling. Or that all of the Picnic Tables inside the park where occupied by sleeping individuals or groups in animated conversation.

But more importantly is the restrictions on where I can park my RV when on the road. Many Rest Stops on the major (mainland) highways, for example, forbid overnight stops -- I suppose someone believes it is safer for a drowsy driver to just keep on going.

Another example is Wal-Mart which has for many years had a reputation, in the RV community, for being a "Safe Harbor." Unfortunately, this is becoming a thing of the past because of local zoning laws -- Aurora, Colorado, for instance, has heavy fines for parking in a commercial parking lot for purposes other than shopping. (It should be noted that Wal Mart's Corporate policy has not changed -- they still welcome RV folks with open arms wherever they can.)

(Oh! I am getting way too serious... need more coffee.)

 

[dex]

Chill out dude, haven't you watched the full season of Startrek: The Next Generation + franchised movies?

The future's so bright, I gotta wear shades!

I think before they got to that time there was a period of time akin to feudalism.

 

[Sam]

Definitely not in Silicon Valley. The medium price of a home is over $800K.

Spanky,

But how much was the median price 2 years ago? Over 1MM, right?

Sam

 

[Nords]

That was what I was thinking, too. Also, given the choice, I'd so much prefer to sleep out on the beach, with the sound of the surf and light breezes over me...

While your slumber is interspersed with the sounds of the squabbling families, the crying kids, the drunks with their breaking beer bottles & loud music in the parking lot, the barking guard dogs, the guy scavenging all the garbage cans for redeemable beverage containers, and the iceheads trashing the restrooms for scrap metal or fighting over the last hit. People use other parts of the beach for their bathroom needs because there's no way they're going into those restrooms. Until the night rains & tradewinds rip your shelter off its pegs into the shorebreak.

Unless, of course, you're in [-]Disneyland[/-] Waikiki or Ala Moana. Then the beach is cleaned & raked each midwatch until not even a cigarette butt is left, and it's very very hard to find a homeless person sheltering themself in the area. But that's brought to you by local merchant's associations and the Hawaii Visitors & Conventions Bureau, which leaves the [-]government[/-] homeless shelters responsible for the "real" Hawaii in Nanakuli, Waianae, Waialua, & Mokuleia...

 

[LOL!]

A few years ago I was in CA on business. The limo driver described to me how he lived in his camper parked at the local State Park. Lots of folks did this. Apparently you could not stay continuously in the park, so you had to leave one day a (year, month). This was accomplished by finding someone in a different State Park to trade that day with.

The limo drive was thinking of living on a boat that was permanently docked and not seaworthy, but the same kind of deal. Paying for a slip was less expensive than paying for an apartment.

So because the weather is nice for the most part in California, there will be people living in their cars no matter what the economy is doing.

 

[haha]

So because the weather is nice for the most part in California, there will be people living in their cars no matter what the economy is doing.

I have a friend who lived in his Volvo wagon for over a year. Some of it was nice weather, some was horrible.

But good weather or bad, the sheer unhandiness and misery of living in a car is overwhelming. Constant rousings by cops, struggling to keep clean. what to do when you are sick-yuck! And he was well employed. He choose the car to save money to pay off some medical and credit card debt. He couldn't live with me because it was too far to his work.

And though we didn't talk about it much, I think cars are not the best place to have a woman friend over for a drink.

Ha

 

[Spanky]

Spanky,

But how much was the median price 2 years ago? Over 1MM, right?

Sam

As Ha Ha says, $800K would not be able to buy a decent place in Palo Alto:
Date Medium price
1/05 1.8M
1/06 1.8M
1/07 1.8M
7/07 2.5M
11/08 1.8M

I guess if one had bought a house back in 7/07, he/she would have considered the decline as a bubble. Otherwise, the loss in value is minimal (if 7/07 is excluded).

Sunnyvale is more affordable (relative to Palo Alto):
1/05 700K
1/06 825K
1/07 750K
1/08 700K
11/08 650K

This shows that the decline is quite moderate.

 

[NW-Bound]

I am fortunate to never have been in such dire straits, though my parents had some financial troubles in my late teen years.

I wonder how people couldn't save enough for a run-down camper parked in a slum RV park. How much does it cost in a park like that, if you pay monthly?

 

[Sam]

As Ha Ha says, $800K would not be able to buy a decent place in Palo Alto:
Date Medium price
1/05 1.8M
1/06 1.8M
1/07 1.8M
7/07 2.5M
11/08 1.8M

I guess if one had bought a house back in 7/07, he/she would have considered the decline as a bubble. Otherwise, the loss in value is minimal (if 7/07 is excluded).

PALO ALTO, CA Real Estate Report for January 18 2009

The first graph says that the 90 days median price was 2.1MM in March 08, and 1.7MM today. 10 months difference.

Sam

 

[Danny]

And that is a piece of junk out in the middle of some former orchard. $800K likely would not buy you a garage in Palo Alto or Menlo Park, let alone in the hills up from these.
Ha

East Palo Alto?

 

[haha]

East Palo Alto?

Perhaps you are not aware that East Palo Alto is its own incorporated city, and not part of Palo Alto. I didn't say that $800k wouldn't buy something in East Palo Alto

Would you want to live there? The weather is very similar to Palo Alto .

Ha

 

[Danny]

Perhaps you are not aware that East Palo Alto is its own incorporated city, and not part of Palo Alto. I didn't say that $800k wouldn't buy something in East Palo Alto

Would you want to live there? The weather is very similar to Palo Alto .

Ha

I am aware (from S.F.) and it was tongue in cheek which from your reaction I should have kept in check - next time I do something like that I'll ..weather is the same and conveniently located on 101. No I would rather live here on the tundra where homes are heavily discounted from even EPA prices and the murder rate here is like the temp right now - 6 below zero

 

[haha]

I am aware (from S.F.) and it was tongue in cheek which from your reaction I should have kept in check - next time I do something like that I'll ..weather is the same and conveniently located on 101. No I would rather live here on the tundra where homes are heavily discounted from even EPA prices and the murder rate here is like the temp right now - 6 below zero

The weather is rarely the same from block to block. An earlier thread reminded me of the risks of absolute statements, so I was trying to avoid them.

Absolute statements are more colorful, which I like. But at the same time I strive for accuracy, so there is a tension.

PS: Danny, I'm sorry for being short. Some unpleasant real world conversations today.

Ha

 

[Danny]

The weather is rarely the same from block to block. An earlier thread reminded me of the risks of absolute statements, so I was trying to avoid them.

Absolute statements are more colorful, which I like. But at the same time I strive for accuracy, so there is a tension.

PS: Danny, I'm sorry for being short. Some unpleasant real world conversations today.
Ha

Ha, not a problem at all. hope the conversations get more pleasant....true about the bay area's micro-climates I suppose since EPA is down closer to the water it would be different than up towards the hills? I lived in SF and BA but not the Peninsula from 67 - 94 - temp differences between the city and areas north & east were dramatic. much milder in SF although it did snow in 73 I think Van Morrison wrote a song about it...

 

[Spanky]

I lived in SF and BA but not the Peninsula from 67 - 94 - temp differences between the city and areas north & east were dramatic. much milder in SF ..

The best climate in the Bay Area, IMHO, is Alameda/Oakland. We looked at some houses when we were there during Xmas last year. A typical 1,400 sq. ft house in Alameda is about $750K. A 4,000 sq. ft house in Oakland hills (with a view of the Bay) is almost 1.5M. More affordable homes can be found in Fairfield or Vegaville (40 miles north of Oakland). A 2,400 sq ft house (with a view of mountains) at a golf community is about $400K. DW liked the model homes but would not consider either city as a place for retirement because of congested traffic and heavy Hispanic population. Anyway, I am still looking for an ideal place for retirement.

 

[Urchina]

Around here, foreclosures are showing up and bank-owned properties are sitting on the market, but we haven't had the horrific glut of foreclosed properties that's paralyzed parts of Stockton, Fresno, etc.

Nearly every major intersection and freeway on-ramp has people with cardboard signs asking for change, though. The regulars are still there, and now they're competing with new folks.

It takes money to move somewhere new. For people who are utterly destitute, sometimes leaving town isn't a choice.

PS. Honobob, how do you define "crash?" I am thinking that maybe that word does not mean what I think it means....

 

[laurence]

Around here, foreclosures are showing up and bank-owned properties are sitting on the market, but we haven't had the horrific glut of foreclosed properties that's paralyzed parts of Stockton, Fresno, etc.

Nearly every major intersection and freeway on-ramp has people with cardboard signs asking for change, though. The regulars are still there, and now they're competing with new folks.

It takes money to move somewhere new. For people who are utterly destitute, sometimes leaving town isn't a choice.

PS. Honobob, how do you define "crash?" I am thinking that maybe that word does not mean what I think it means....

Don't mind Hono, he's just looking to start a fight. As always.

 

[Urchina]

Damn! I hate being a sucker for chain-yanking! Maybe someday I, too, will be cool enough to filter it out.

 

[W2R]

While your slumber is interspersed with the sounds of the squabbling families, the crying kids, the drunks with their breaking beer bottles & loud music in the parking lot, the barking guard dogs, the guy scavenging all the garbage cans for redeemable beverage containers, and the iceheads trashing the restrooms for scrap metal or fighting over the last hit. People use other parts of the beach for their bathroom needs because there's no way they're going into those restrooms. Until the night rains & tradewinds rip your shelter off its pegs into the shorebreak.

Unless, of course, you're in [-]Disneyland[/-] Waikiki or Ala Moana. Then the beach is cleaned & raked each midwatch until not even a cigarette butt is left, and it's very very hard to find a homeless person sheltering themself in the area. But that's brought to you by local merchant's associations and the Hawaii Visitors & Conventions Bureau, which leaves the [-]government[/-] homeless shelters responsible for the "real" Hawaii in Nanakuli, Waianae, Waialua, & Mokuleia...

Wow - - I guess things have gotten pretty bad in the past 35 years. Back in the early 1970's, I camped at Nanakuli with a dozen friends each weekend all summer (one friend was one of my students at the U. of H., and he was also a dive instructor so he was teaching us science geeks to dive, plus a few Navy guys including my then-boyfriend, now-ex). We had a campsite reserved there. Most of the time the beach was nearly deserted. We spearfished and cooked our catch over a camp stove. We had none of the problems you listed at that time. The restrooms were no worse than any public restroom, and not far away. That part of the beach was completely clean and we made several beach walks each day looking for any trash (but didn't find much). The other campers further down the beach were all locals and they took pride in keeping the beach clean as well. I probably never slept so well and waking up at dawn just a few feet from the water, when everyone else was asleep, was spectacular.

Growing up in the islands I have also slept at a number of other beaches on Oahu back "in the day", though not in the city. I even slept on Kailua Beach, where my family's waterfront home was. Why, when I could have slept in our yard right there on the beach? I dunno. I guess because I was a teenager. Security walked up and down that beach all night, so you can't sleep out in the open there.

 

[RonBoyd]

Wow - - I guess things have gotten pretty bad in the past 35 years.

Hawaii has been our vacation destination of choice since the early 70's and we have visited there at least once a year. From an "outsider's" encounter with the conditions of the homeless in Hawaii, I can assure it is even worse then Nords describes (or could).

A couple of years ago we spent a week at the Makaha Resort & Golf Club in Waianae. (Much less impressive than it sounds, BTW... but still a nice property.) We traveled the Farrington Hwy every morning and evening. It didn't take long to realize that these people (and it is shoulder to shoulder along that whole coast) are not there because they want to be. They are simply trying to make the best of a bad situation -- many, for instance, have potted plants around their "space." But you can imagine what happens when you pack that many people together who have little if any hope for a brighter future -- not as bad as refugee camps in third world countries but close. Each day is a separate incidence with no real connection to an uncertain tomorrow or to that "don't-want-to-think-about-it" yesterday.

In any event, there are no simple solutions. And it is becoming less and less unique to Hawaii so everyone should "listen up."

 

[RonBoyd]

In any event, there are no simple solutions.

Nevertheless, there are numerous suggestions. The NIMBY coaliton should welcome this one:

Plan would buy airfare to send Hawaii homeless to Mainland | HonoluluAdvertiser.com | The Honolulu Advertiser

 

[honobob]

Damn! I hate being a sucker for chain-yanking! Maybe someday I, too, will be cool enough to filter it out.

 

[Hal3]

My son works for the State of California. Mandatory 10% pay cut. He's young, no family, no debt. He's not complaining. He worries about the families with credit card debt, car payments, mortgages, kids in college.

No doubt some of them are going to have to start eating 34% to 49% default rates on their credit cards after a few late payments.

Late fees, over limit fees, miss a house payment. It's only a matter of time.

 

[jazz4cash]

Ironic to me to have a large group that is homelesss while simultaneously having a large group being foreclosed.....someone should introduce these groups to each other.

 

[kumquat]

Nevertheless, there are numerous suggestions. The NIMBY coaliton should welcome this one:

Plan would buy airfare to send Hawaii homeless to Mainland | HonoluluAdvertiser.com | The Honolulu Advertiser

WE've done it up in the frozen north )or at least thought about it): earlier stance on welfare he had taken, which was to offer destitute people: Online Encyclopedia and Dictionary - Ralph Klein

Ralphie offered "a bus ticket to Vancouver" to exploit the more generous social assistance of British Columbia."