Plight of older people

[Gumby]

What I learn from this thread is John Prine, an obviously well-known artist, but I never ran across his music. Hmm...

Just researched this song, and found many covered it. Again, somehow I never heard it.

In my opinion, the best version was done by Susan Tedeschi.

 

[NW-Bound]

I never heard of Susan Tedeschi either, until I searched for renditions of "Angel from Montgomery". Found that Carly Simon also covered this song back in 1972, and I knew of Carly Simon.

 

[Calico]

Bonnie Raitt's version:

 

[Sunset]

If one has to pay for child care, most low wage jobs are simply not worth it. Add in the possible loss of food stamps (or whatever they are called these days), and the net result can be negative.

I read an article a while back that said the highest marginal 'tax' rate on wages in our country is on poor people who get a job. Granted it's not taxes they pay, but they pay dearly in lost benefits. Surely, some way can be found to decrease benefits on a sliding scale that preserves the incentives of working for a living.

Child care costs do make some folks realize it's cheaper to stay home with the child -> BUT once the kid is in school full time, it's time to get a job.
What often happens is a person gets used to not working - it's like early retirement with a welfare pension.

If someone is staying home with their child due to the high cost of child care, then obviously they should take in a couple of kids and EARN a living running a home based day care.
What often happens is some do this, and get the welfare + side $$$, living the good life at tax payer expense. At least they are being productive.

 

[youbet]

Prine is an older guy, a cancer survivor and clearly not the same guy he was back in the day. But I still recall DW and I seeing him at the Earl of Old Town, Holsteins, The Old Town School and a few other Chicago folk clubs back in the late 60's / early 70's. Terrific times!

It's easy for us to identify with him since we grew up in a Chicago 'hood not too far from Maywood where John was raised and DW and I (just highschool sweethearts at the time) were busy trying to be the next Ian and Sylvia. I'm guessing the "Rudy at the factory" mentioned in "Hello in There" was my boss on second shift at the can company (in Prine's neighborhood) where I worked for a while. Or not. Wish I could find out.

Didn't see him for decades until 5 - 6 years ago when we noticed he was doing a local concert in nearby Joliet. Had a ball. He's been coming back through the Chicago area annually and, when we can get tickets (they're expensive and hard to come by) we love going.

 

[Aerides]

Child care costs do make some folks realize it's cheaper to stay home with the child -> BUT once the kid is in school full time, it's time to get a job.
What often happens is a person gets used to not working - it's like early retirement with a welfare pension.

If someone is staying home with their child due to the high cost of child care, then obviously they should take in a couple of kids and EARN a living running a home based day care.
What often happens is some do this, and get the welfare + side $$$, living the good life at tax payer expense. At least they are being productive.

I'm a DINK but on behalf of SAH-parents... um no. Schools generally get out way before working shifts, and summer, and breaks etc., so even once kids are in school there is a huge benefit - if parents can afford it - to continuing to stay home. This is a decision for each family to make, not anyone else to dictate, and judge that "oh those SAHparents with kids in school are basically Peg Bundy" because no.

Let's please not judge those who make home and children their full time work.

 

[Mr._Graybeard]

Why? Because most people are incompetent? They are mental children unable to devise a plan to get to a better way of life, and sticking with it?

Don’t get me wrong... I am just a lazy as the next person. But I have “earned my laziness” when I am lazy, it affects no one but myself. I do not live at the expense of other people. Because I actually have respect for others.

The guy I was referring to, has leeched off of his father for decades. I would feel a deep sense of shame doing that. He was, and is not un-intelligent, but is completely unmotivated. His life ( or the window I have seen into it from FB) , is the life of a small child. Unable to grasp adult concepts because he has never needed to.

The similarly unmotivated person I knew also basically never grew up. Mom and Dad split when he was about 11, leaving him without a positive male role model, and critically, Mom enabled his sloth instead of pushing him out of the nest. It's a common template in the poverty cycle.

 

[Music Lover]

Why? Because most people are incompetent? They are mental children unable to devise a plan to get to a better way of life, and sticking with it?

Don’t get me wrong... I am just a lazy as the next person. But I have “earned my laziness” when I am lazy, it affects no one but myself. I do not live at the expense of other people. Because I actually have respect for others.

The guy I was referring to, has leeched off of his father for decades. I would feel a deep sense of shame doing that. He was, and is not un-intelligent, but is completely unmotivated. His life ( or the window I have seen into it from FB) , is the life of a small child. Unable to grasp adult concepts because he has never needed to.

Part of being an “adult”, often means having to do things you do not like. In my career there have been many weeks where I had not seen the sun all day, due to an early morning and late evening. Not so much any more, but I paid a price for that.

I believe that most people, most of the time can create a good life for themselves here in the US. But being a go getter is sort of a pre requisite to that.

One of the people I know who doesn't work is neither incompetent or uneducated. He's fairly intelligent and had an easy, well paying government job where he could have coasted working 2 or 3 hours a day and retired with a full pension at 55...basically a dream job for someone who just wants to do the minimum to get by.

But he quit when he was 30 and is now in his early 60's still living in his mother's basement (she's 91). I know one of his brothers quite well and he told me that the house is being sold and their mother is moving into a small apartment and he'll finally have to fend for himself.

 

[armor99]

The similarly unmotivated person I knew also basically never grew up. Mom and Dad split when he was about 11, leaving him without a positive male role model, and critically, Mom enabled his sloth instead of pushing him out of the nest. It's a common template in the poverty cycle.

I was standing in line at the supermarket one day. Minding my own business, not speaking with anyone. A guy in his early 20’s in front of me desperately needed to spread the gospel of {mod edit} his political views{mod edit}. some people just have so much anger and hatred inside of them, they feel the need to randomly share it... I am sure many here have met them.

I tried to be polite, let the tirade go on for a few. Was sort of a captive audience waiting in line. Eventually when he paused to breathe I asked him... “Hmmm that is a really interesting point of view you have, so tell me.... do you financially support yourself at this time.” That was met with a look of pure anger and confusion. And then I followed up with... “I will take that as a no.... so why exactly should I take anything you have to say even remotely seriously?”

Yes.... I was kicking a puppy.... but eventually the puppy that bites your finger is no longer so cute. I will never understand why our society goes out of its way to cater to children, or those that act as children. I take a dim view of people that expel enormous effort and energy into to the process of NOT having to work. The excuses, the lying, the “living for today mentality” etc.

I guess maybe I am just more optimistic than most. I do not believe that a very large percentage of people are physically and/or mentally incapable of creating a decent life for themselves. I truly WANT to help those that really are physically/mentally unable. But in my experience, that percentage is pretty small. The line of moochers, scammers, or people with low motivation is very long...

Apologies for the rant.... was in a mood... [emoji3]

 

[Sunset]

I'm a DINK but on behalf of SAH-parents... um no. Schools generally get out way before working shifts, and summer, and breaks etc., so even once kids are in school there is a huge benefit - if parents can afford it - to continuing to stay home. This is a decision for each family to make, not anyone else to dictate, and judge that "oh those SAHparents with kids in school are basically Peg Bundy" because no.

Let's please not judge those who make home and children their full time work.

I was a SAH Dad, raised both kids while Wife went off to work at her higher paying job. But once both were in school all day, it was fairly easy to find a neighbor to watch then for the 2-3 hours after school bus dropped them off until one of us got home from work.

So Been there Done that, and don't see the huge benefit to staying at home in the empty house while the kids are in school so I went back to work !

I don't feel I was being judgmental, just pointing out how having a child does not mean sentenced to never working again. Which is important as that choice leads one to the path of possibly being poor later in life, with no work skills if spouse dies/divorces/goes to jail/becomes unemployable, etc...

 

[HFWR]

In my opinion, the best version was done by Susan Tedeschi.

Will have to find that...

I have a number of Prine songs in my “passing the bottle of Crown around the campfire” acoustic repertoire.

 

[Winemaker]

If one has to pay for child care, most low wage jobs are simply not worth it. Add in the possible loss of food stamps (or whatever they are called these days), and the net result can be negative.

I read an article a while back that said the highest marginal 'tax' rate on wages in our country is on poor people who get a job. Granted it's not taxes they pay, but they pay dearly in lost benefits. Surely, some way can be found to decrease benefits on a sliding scale that preserves the incentives of working for a living.

I know a college educated 30+ single mom with a child. Minimal child support from father; he still lives with mommy and cannot keep a job. She was working 3 jobs as an ass't manager in a restaurant, and a waitress/server in another two. I got her an interview with a friend who owns a large expanding business. She blew his aptitude test out of the water, as well as all of her screenings. She was offered a job at $18/hour, medical/dental/eye care, 401k, and employee pricing, 40 hours/week. She turned him down and explained to me that she needed $22/hour to get ahead. At $18/hour, she would lose many government benefits for her and kid. Methinks that maybe the benefits are too generous?

 

[Gumby]

Thanks for an interesting discussion.