RV Expenses

[FIREd]

I know it's futile, but this is how I justify the RV purchase to the wife:

No RV: at least $100 a night for the kind of hotels we would feel comfortable booking. RV: about $40 a night on average for a campground?

No RV: skip breakfast, eat 2 meals out per day, I figure $40 per day for 2 people (seems low for the kind of food we like to eat).
RV: cook our own meals, about $20 per day for 2 people (that's what we spend at home)

So assuming RV carrying costs of $5,000 per year, the break even point would be around 2 months on the road. Not bad at all. I dream of spending the summers up north (Maine, Vermont, Quebec...). Bama summers start getting to me.

The ability to sleep in your bed each night, travel with the pets, and eat homemade food while touring the continent on your own terms, priceless...

 

[RonBoyd]

The way I figure it is you would need to stay in it four to five months a year to break even vs. a $50 motel room.

It would take me four to five months just to get over staying in a $50 a night hotel room... possibly as long as a year.

 

[NW-Bound]

...So assuming RV carrying costs of $5,000 per year, the break even point would be around 2 months on the road. Not bad at all.

Stay on the road even longer. The more you travel, the more you save.
But if you are going to live in it for 3-4 months, wouldn't you need something larger? And a toad for even more convenient excursions?

I dream of spending the summers up north (Maine, Vermont, Quebec...). Bama summers start getting to me.

Oh man, just think of it this way. A RV+toad is cheaper than a 2nd home.

PS. Of course when comparing RVs to a 2nd home, I mean a more modest RV and not one of those monstrous 45 footers. And yes, RVs sometimes leak, but dealing with these leaks is a lot easier than dealing with home roof leaks. Or having to stain the exterior, and the deck.

 

[RonBoyd]

...spending the summers up north (Maine, Vermont, Quebec...). Bama summers start getting to me.

The ability to sleep in your bed each night, travel with the pets, and eat homemade food while touring the continent on your own terms, priceless...

"Priceless" is the correct word... however, inadequate it may be.

 

[NW-Bound]

...RV: about $40 a night on average for a campground?

When we take to the road, I am thinking that we will want to stay in public parks and campgrounds as much as we can. There are all kinds of campgrounds run by the Fed, the States, and local governments such as counties and cities. These are the public amenities that I have overlooked for years because we never camped and only made day trips to the countryside from the hotel/motel in the cities. I have been studying the Web, and just this preparation is already fun for me.

We will do the reverse of how we traveled before. We will stay in the "wilderness" and take day trips to the cities.

And of course, there is nothing wrong with staying for one night in a cheap RV park along the road while in transit. We are still sleeping in our own bed, and cooking our own food, yes?

Regarding boondocking, here's an example I found on the Web. The writer did this boondocking trip in a fifth wheel. Imagine how much easier it would be with a smaller RV. I begin to wonder if my toad is going to be a liability. Nah! Just unhook it and have the wife drive it when the road gets narrow and the goin' gets tough.

RV Boondocking on the North Umpqua River, Oregon

 

[REWahoo]

When we take to the road, I am thinking that we will want to stay in public parks and campgrounds as much as we can. There are all kinds of campgrounds run by the Fed, the States, and local governments such as counties and cities.

Good plan.

Don't forget to pick up one of these at your first opportunity - big savings at COE campgrounds and other Federal sites:

America the Beautiful – National Parks and Federal Recreational Lands Pass – Senior Pass. - Cost $10.

America the Beautiful – National Parks and Federal Recreational Lands Pass – Senior Pass This is a lifetime pass for U.S. citizens or permanent residents age 62 or over. The pass provides access to, and use of, Federal recreation sites that charge an Entrance or Standard Amenity. The pass admits the pass holder and passengers in a non-commercial vehicle at per vehicle fee areas and pass holder + 3 adults, not to exceed 4 adults, at per person fee areas (children under 16 are admitted free). The pass can only be obtained in person at the park. The Senior Pass provides a 50 percent discount on some Expanded Amenity Fees charged for facilities and services such as camping, swimming, boat launch, and specialized interpretive services. In some cases where Expanded Amenity Fees are charged, only the pass holder will be given the 50 percent price reduction. The pass is non-transferable and generally does NOT cover or reduce special recreation permit fees or fees charged by concessionaires.

 

[NW-Bound]

...This is a lifetime pass for U.S. citizens or permanent residents age 62 or over...

Sadly, we still have a few years to go. No, I am not Bebel (Belmondo)

 

[REWahoo]

Sadly, we still have a few years to go. No, I am not Bebel (Belmondo)

I said "at your first opportunity". Always nice to have something to look forward to...

 

[audreyh1]

Audrey, off topic but...

Since you are now a resident of Mission, does that make you Missionaries?

I think there are more missions around San Antonio than around here! (but there is one).

Audrey

 

[Helen]

We will do the reverse of how we traveled before. We will stay in the "wilderness" and take day trips to the cities.

And of course, there is nothing wrong with staying for one night in a cheap RV park along the road while in transit. We are still sleeping in our own bed, and cooking our own food, yes?

This is sounds so good to me. I'd do a combination of boondocking on Federal and state lands (and there is an abundance of it in the NW), State and National campgrounds, Walmart type of overnight stays and hotels. I would also do the occasional short visit to family and good friends who are scattered around the country.

I like the idea of a 19 - 21 foot van. We'd put one of these on the back of the van:

http://www.etrailer.com/tv-demo_thule_terapin_cargo_carrier_TH684.aspx

to store our backpacks, tent and blow up boats. Then park for days at a time and do over night backpacking trips or day hikes while spending the night in the van. After that we would move on to a campground with electrical hook up (for the luxury of laptops, AC, TV), then move on to a city and rent a hotel for a few nights. We would just wing it and go where ever sounds good.

I'm thinking we could start out cheap with a queen size air mattress, Coleman propane cooking stove, large cooler with a block of ice, and wag bag plus 5 gallon bucket or port-a-potty. If we enjoy this type of travel we could go to sportsmobile and have it upgraded.

We like to backpack, but it is getting more difficult to carry the backpacks for longer trips. A van would enable us to still get out and enjoy the wilderness in a way that accommodates our physical capabilities.

At the moment a Dodge or Chevy van sounds good for the stealth factor. I'd go with a forest green to blend with the forest. One thing I don't want to do is make it look like we have a lot of wealth. Some conversion vans look like regular vans and not like small RVs, I'd just like to blend and go unnoticed.

In addition to this, in the winter I’d like to rent a house/condo/apartment for a month or two in various locations. We could use the van to travel there but live in the rented accomodations.

This just sounds so heavenly to me. I have been on call every other week for seven years now and I can't wait to have freedom to go when and where I want to go.

I have less than 3 years to RE; I can not wait.

 

[FANOFJESUS]

It would take me four to five months just to get over staying in a $50 a night hotel room... possibly as long as a year.

I am not knocking RV'ing God Bless you all I hope you have a good time. But on the pen and paper side I don't think it comes out on top money wise.

 

[tstiles]

RV costs can vary significantly. My experience was as follows :
- New / Highly Discounted Class A Gas Coach
- 1st couple of years we did 5,000 miles per yr
- Next couple of years we did 3,000 miles per yr
- The last year of ownership we did maybe 1,500 miles
- The kids loved it at 1st , as they aged they grew to hate it
- Nothing better for going to NASCAR / IRL / SCCA races !
- Nothing better for going to the beach and festivals !
- My maintenance cost were not that bad , but I was under warrantee when the chassis had expensive problems ... I did all my own routine R&M ... But to be quite honest , having a big R&M issue was always in the back of my mind.
- Don't forget storage cost if your primary residence is deed restricted
- Don't forget about insurance costs , not bad when you are using your coach alot , but huge when it's just sitting
- DO NOT finance your RV ... It's also a certainty that you will be upside down when you want to sell / trade
- You've got to have another towed vehicle ... you always forget / run out of something and need a quick run to the store or just do an exploring day
- Big class A's are NOT fun to drive.
- Depending on where you live and what your expectations are , finding good campgrounds can be a real problem

OK , here's the real deal about expenses ... forget about the cost of R&M , insurance , storage , fuel , ect. ... It's about DEPRECIATION ... That's the big number ... To get an idea of what the real cost are , check out actual selling prices @ PPL Motorhomes in Houston , then go check out what these coaches sold for when new ( MSRP less 25-30% ) ... Don't forget that today's depreciation trends are in the age of $ 2.75 fuel , when it's goes to $ 5.00 hold on tight .

I love many aspects of RV'ing , but I decided I wanted to keep as much as possible in appreciating assets.

 

[NW-Bound]

...
OK , here's the real deal about expenses ... forget about the cost of R&M , insurance , storage , fuel , ect. ... It's about DEPRECIATION ... That's the big number ...

Yes, you've hit on the nail head. If you can't handle depreciation, GET OUT OF THE RV!!!

OK, OK, I can't handle the big D either. So, I bought a gently used one. With that purchase, I am really at ease with my frugal conscience.

...I'm thinking we could start out cheap with a queen size air mattress, Coleman propane cooking stove, large cooler with a block of ice, and wag bag plus 5 gallon bucket or port-a-potty. If we enjoy this type of travel we could go to sportsmobile and have it upgraded....
...At the moment a Dodge or Chevy van sounds good for the stealth factor...

Back when I was first looking into RV'ing and having had no experience in camping, I researched a lot on the Web to see what would work for us. Though I have found that a small class C RV is best for us (for travel, as I have no intention to full-timing), I remember running across a blog of a young couple in their 30s who quit their jobs, sold their house and lived in a van that they converted themselves. Though we like more creature comforts than that, I thought I would share their link so you can see what they have done. Now, these people are mountain climbers, so they are certainly more active and daring than we ever were, back when we were that young.

Van Construction - Off the grid and on the map

 

[audreyh1]

I love many aspects of RV'ing , but I decided I wanted to keep as much as possible in appreciating assets.

Well, I hope you don't stay awake at night thinking about all that STUFF you have filled your house and yard with that is busy depreciating.

With rare exceptions, no one expects their car to appreciate either. People expected real estate to appreciate too - but that rug got pulled out from under a lot of people 5 years ago. And how many people really get money back for all the home remodeling they "invest" in? Probably very few.

Basically, IMO this last point is a red herring. Mainly because you don't buy an RV as an investment or even to achieve some kind of magic savings - you buy it because you want to enjoy using it - you expect it to enhance your lifestyle - the same reason you might buy a lot of other things.

But the rest of your points are very well taken. If you aren't using the RV heavily each year, it really is a waste.

Audrey

 

[REWahoo]

- The kids loved it at 1st , as they aged they grew to hate it

I don't think a Class A or other 'expensive' RV is a good idea if you still have the kids at home with you (homeschooled may be an exception). Too many other priorities and opinions (see above) get in the way of utilizing it the way it was intended. Get a pop-up or a travel trailer and save the big motorhome dollars until you are FIRED and can really enjoy it.

(This message posted from our MH, parked a few feet from the lake. )

 

[REWahoo]

But on the pen and paper side I don't think it comes out on top money wise.

Once again, if you search on other RV threads posted here you'll find those of us who choose to RV as a hobby/lifestyle totally agree. We aren't trying to convince anyone that it is about saving money.*

*With the exception of NW-bound's efforts to his DW

 

[dex]

Well, I hope you don't stay awake at night thinking about all that STUFF you have filled your house and yard with that is busy depreciating.

With rare exceptions, no one expects their car to appreciate either. People expected real estate to appreciate too - but that rug got pulled out from under a lot of people 5 years ago. And how many people really get money back for all the home remodeling they "invest" in? Probably very few.

Basically, IMO this last point is a red herring. Mainly because you don't buy an RV as an investment or even to achieve some kind of magic savings - you buy it because you want to enjoy using it - you expect it to enhance your lifestyle - the same reason you might buy a lot of other things.

But the rest of your points are very well taken. If you aren't using the RV heavily each year, it really is a waste.

Audrey

Good points. I never RVd before I bought one. I discovered the lifestyle fits me - even if I only do it for 3-4 months a year.
The question is not if an RV is a depreciating asset. The question is what is the cost benefit breaking point for it. Meaning - what level of use justifies the cost to the owner.

Another way to analyze the cost of an RV is versus an equally rewarding endeavor to the owner. We are taking about travel here so an example would be the total cost of 3 months of traveling in an RV versus traveling via another method - analyze the costs and qualitative differences between the two.
And don't forget the admonition about 'knowing the cost of everything but not knowing the value of anything'

A final thought, who thinks a airline flight to England and hotel costs should be an appreciating asset?

 

[RonBoyd]

Another way to analyze the cost of an RV is versus an equally rewarding endeavor to the owner. We are taking about travel here so an example would be the total cost of 3 months of traveling in an RV versus traveling via another method - analyze the costs and qualitative differences between the two.

I started a thread a couple months ago that gave an example of the "cost" of RV travel that may provide some direction to this thread:

http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f27/cost-of-rving-49691.html

 

[youbet]

Another way to analyze the cost of an RV is versus an equally rewarding endeavor to the owner.

There ya go.

Travel by any means is generally considered discretionary spending. So
if RV travel appeals to you and fits within your discretionary spending budget, do it. If you'd rather take theater tours to NYC and that fits within your discretionary spending budget, do that. Prefer to rent a cabin on the lake "Up Nort" for a couple of months? Hey, go for it!

Dex makes an excellent point concerning "value." It's unique to each of us. Trying to value an activity funded with discretionary dollars and partaken for personal pleasure by different individuals is futile.

 

[brewer12345]

fireDreamer, you might consider trying to get the RV up the driveway when the time comes. Our driveway is quite steep and was a problem until we discovered that a couple of 5 foot long 2X8s gave us just enough lift over the problem area to get the trailer up the sharp slope. Easy peasy now. And I do not have to pay for storage...

 

[xyz]

We are not retired yet (actually DW is, I have a year to go). We started with a travel trailer about 6 years ago then bought a fifth wheel and now have a luxury 43' class A. We don't do it to save money we do it for a diffrent kind of vacation. I am a million miler on multiple airlines (work related) and love to travel but we decided years ago we needed to do something diffrent than flying and staying in hotels / condos / rentals for vacation. The RV has turned out to be exactly what we wanted to do. We put kayaks, bicycles, golf clubs in the toad and pets in the RV with us. We love the freedom it gives us.. We keep ours at our house, have it fully stocked including most of our clothes we take so the decision to go somewhere can be made almost anytime. We really like doing 4 day weekends from April to November (we live where it is cold in winter) but have taken it out in -5F weather too. We fully intend to go on the road for months at a time once retired as our biggest complaint is we have to come home. We don't really plan on going full time but who knows.. we plan to go as long as we are having fun. I really think it is about the experience and the flexibility.. When we are traveling in the RV we stop when and where we feel like it and if we don't like a place we pack it up and move out. In the 6 years we have been doing this we probably have put in about 10,000 miles per year so we have covered a very good part of the country already, we just want to spend more time at places in the future.

Another part of the culture is the many groups you can get involved in. We have been involved with a few and it is amazing how friendly all these people are and how much fun we have had with them. One idea I have is to tour the entire country and attend rallies(the good ones are like 3 day parties) every week.

There is some value to RVing in that we cook most of our meals and campgrounds are much less expensive than high end hotels (our RV is better than most hotel rooms). But maintance is not inexpensive (and there is lots of it) and fuel is very expensive but we have planned it in our budget and manage our expenses to what we can afford.

We typically do not spend a lot of time at the campgrounds we park at as we like to hike, bike, visit museums, tour and anything else we can think of. It's all really a lifestyle you have to like. I started years ago when I was financially lean and we would tent camp and hike.. It really was a lot of fun but the RV's sure looked good when it was raining or snowing out..Now that we have one we found they really are!

 

[RonBoyd]

There is a BLOG called The Frugal RV Travel Blog that would be useful in the "RV Cost" aspect of this thread. Here is one of the early posts:

Traveling Frugally

On our 4 longest RV trips, I kept close track, recording every expense.

To show you how possible and how affordable traveling frugally by RV can be - our way – I'll share with you exactly how much it cost and where we allocated every penny we spent on those 4 trips.

When we plan a long road trip we plan on traveling frugally. We budget $500.00 per person per month for our travels. This includes all expenses of our trip including food and personal items that we'd be purchasing even if we were staying home. And, as you'll see from our records below, we don't hold back on mileage.

We're not traveling to go and sit in one spot. We're going to see and experience as much as we can at a pace that keeps the trip relaxing but, at the same time, exciting and spontaneous.

This Blog might also be useful:

Fulltime RVing Budget

The biggest question I think most people have before they run away
to a traveling lifestyle is: Can I afford it? I spent a lot of time
studying other travelers' budgets online before we left, and I thought
it would help future adventurers if I added a year of our actual
expenses to the mix.
This section includes:
• Our monthly "fixed" costs from 9/1/07-8/31/08
• Our monthly "variable" costs in the same time period
• Capital costs & RV depreciation considerations when
budgeting for fulltiming

 

[audreyh1]

Good points. I never RVd before I bought one. I discovered the lifestyle fits me - even if I only do it for 3-4 months a year.
The question is not if an RV is a depreciating asset. The question is what is the cost benefit breaking point for it. Meaning - what level of use justifies the cost to the owner.

Another way to analyze the cost of an RV is versus an equally rewarding endeavor to the owner. We are taking about travel here so an example would be the total cost of 3 months of traveling in an RV versus traveling via another method - analyze the costs and qualitative differences between the two.
And don't forget the admonition about 'knowing the cost of everything but not knowing the value of anything'

A final thought, who thinks a airline flight to England and hotel costs should be an appreciating asset?

Dex - you own one of those very rare RV models that barely depreciate. When we sold our Casita, we pretty much got all our money back less sales tax and a few add-ons. Two years heavy use - virtually free!

But I still find the cost comparison difficult. Unless it's a very inexpensive RV like a trailer (and you can use your current vehicle to tow it), cost of the RV even amortized over 10 years or so easily blows away travel expenses.

And on the other hand - how do you quantify "ease of travel", or enhanced flexibility, or no need to pack and unpack, or having your own space - kitchen, bed, bathroom all the time, or being able to stay in places only accessible by RV? You can't really quantify that stuff, and I'm not sure there is a point. This is the area where some people are willing to pay a lot for these benefits (like us), and others are willing to put up with the lack of benefits because they can save a lot of money doing so.

Personally, if something will really enhance my lifestyle, and I can afford to buy it, I do so with no concerns about the cost. Because what else is money really for? If you aren't FIRE yet, then saving is really important. Once you are FIRE, it's about aligning your spending with your priorities, no longer about trying to spend as little as possible.

Audrey

 

[Helen]

Personally, if something will really enhance my lifestyle, and I can afford to buy it, I do so with no concerns about the cost. Because what else is money really for? If you aren't FIRE yet, then saving is really important. Once you are FIRE, it's about aligning your spending with your priorities, no longer about trying to spend as little as possible.

Audrey

I need to show this great quote to my partner (she's Scottish and gets stressed at the thought of spending money .)

This thread has me back exploring the options of a class B. I'm really liking the ~20 ft. Sportsmobile with the pop up roof.

The sprinter van is really nice, but the Ford or Chevy would aid with the stealth mode. I have no doubt that we would really use one of these when we retire. We both love road trips and have planned to travel a lot once we retire. We could spend a long time just exploring the Pacific NorthWest.

I'm going to start hitting the RV shows again. With three years to go to retirement it is time to start getting serious. I'd like to buy one about 1 year before pulling the plug. I don't want to buy one any sooner as I am on call every other week. There is no use buying one and letting it sit most of the time; plus it would make being tethered even more painful.
< 3 years to go!!!!

-helen

 

[NW-Bound]

We aren't trying to convince anyone that it is about saving money.*

*With the exception of NW-bound's efforts to his DW

Hey, why pick on me? Didn't you see Firedreamer's post above?

Once you are FIRE, it's about aligning your spending with your priorities, no longer about trying to spend as little as possible.

True, but for most of us, money is not an unlimited resource. A retiree still likes to maximize the return on the money expended, even if that return is something intangible and difficult to measure like the pleasure of travel. In our case, we forgo leather seats, real-wood cabinets, and nice countertop in our RV because we figure that the lack of those would not detract from the pleasure we will get from this mode of travel.

OK, OK, that's just Uncle Scrooge talking... But the truth is how does one know what he can afford? The market giveth and the market taketh. In the bull market of 2004-2007, we took several European trips, bought a 2nd home, and our portfolio still set a new high! And then, in the crash of 2008-2009, I "lost" something equivalent to a few new mid-range diesel pushers. Just now been recovering, and I won't spend more until I reclaim that old water mark.

Ah, the joy of counting your moolah... Uncle Mick knows all about this too, I am sure. And I have posted the following quote before.

"Money is much more exciting than anything it buys." - Mignon McLaughlin