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Old 01-05-2008, 03:23 PM   #61
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Good god teachers getting the blame again.

Bottom line worthless parents who send their children unprepared to school. Parents who had no good reason to have the kids they have. Just because you can have sex doesn't mean you should be a parent.

You should have met some of the worthless dregs that had children that we taught. Damaged uncared for kids. I am not a social worker, I was a teacher who did not have the money or ability to fix the damage that the parents inflicted on these kids.
It has been my experience that when the teachers and the parents work together that the teaching process for our children is enhanced and it creates an en∑vi∑ron∑ment for learning. The parents involvement is crucial to a child's education.

There are some darn good teachers but they need the support of the parents, the school adminstration and the school board.

GOD BLESS
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Old 01-07-2008, 01:52 PM   #62
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Not all states put the burden of education expenses on the tax bill. Iowa is one. My grandchildren go to a Lutheran school and the tuition is $500.00 per year for grades 1-6. I have been to the school, it's beautiful, and has everything the children need. My point is why public schools canít compete on quality for the huge price they receive to teach.

I agree that public schools get dysfunctional kids, but then I think school vouchers are the answer. Close the underperforming schools.
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Old 01-07-2008, 02:07 PM   #63
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Not all states put the burden of education expenses on the tax bill. Iowa is one. My grandchildren go to a Lutheran school and the tuition is $500.00 per year for grades 1-6. I have been to the school, it's beautiful, and has everything the children need. My point is why public schools canít compete on quality for the huge price they receive to teach.
The local paper posted the pay of our local teachers. On average, they get about $30,000 a year in fringe benefits, which are pension, health care, etc. The average teacher in our district makes $55,000 + the fringe benefits. Maybe that's not awesome,but it's not a terrible job,IMHO..........
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Old 01-07-2008, 02:39 PM   #64
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K-through-12 represents one of the most venal manifestations of the lowest human drives existent. The politics is venomous: cliques of moronic, aggressive parents
Are you implying that that applies to some of the posters here?
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Old 01-07-2008, 02:53 PM   #65
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The local paper posted the pay of our local teachers. On average, they get about $30,000 a year in fringe benefits, which are pension, health care, etc. The average teacher in our district makes $55,000 + the fringe benefits. Maybe that's not awesome,but it's not a terrible job,IMHO..........
Remember, you and your neighbors, through the process of electing the officials in your taxing body, have agreed to all this. If you really disagree, start militantly protesting and, over time, do something about it!

If you can't get your neighbors to buy in, move. Find a community to join where values and beliefs are different than where you are now and there is a focus on low school funding.

Unlike state or federal taxes which cross many communities, real estate taxes are localized and can be influenced by the community over time. But you have to speak up loudly and consistently to do it. And again, if you find your neighbors aren't in agreement, you've joined the wrong community. You'll need to find a place in synch with your own beliefs, where policy is to pay teachers much less, that have fewer physical facilities, etc. It can be done.

Edited: I'm assuming you're in a town or suburb. If you're in a large city and you don't like the way real estate tax dollars are being spent, run for the hills because there won't be much you can do about it.
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Old 01-07-2008, 03:00 PM   #66
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Not all states put the burden of education expenses on the tax bill. Iowa is one. My grandchildren go to a Lutheran school and the tuition is $500.00 per year for grades 1-6. I have been to the school, it's beautiful, and has everything the children need. My point is why public schools can’t compete on quality for the huge price they receive to teach.
Wow, that's impressive. If a classroom had 30 students and every penny of their tuition went directly to the teacher, that would be a salary of $15k/yr and no benefits whatsoever. That assumes not a penny going for the physical plant, administration, text books and supplies, etc. Those folks really have their act together on cost control.
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Old 01-07-2008, 03:46 PM   #67
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I know this is going to cause a big explosion of words. Why not eliminate school taxes and just charge tuition? You got the kids, you pay, or maybe you could ask the Grandparents or the neighbors without kids to help out voluntarily.
The area where I would most like to see this applied is at the state universities. No tax subsidies! No schlorships! Students at state universities should pay the full cost of providing their education.
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Old 01-07-2008, 04:28 PM   #68
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OK, I can't believe I am saying this since I generally prefer lower taxes and smaller government.

But an educated public is an advantage to the entire community. An educated public improves the quality of life. We lift ourselves as a society when we improve the educational level of the public. Here in Louisiana we have some of the worst schools in the country and the lack of a common educational background makes a huge difference in the quality of daily life.

A lesser reason for public education is that businesses are attracted to places where they can find a well educated, trained workforce and to places where their workers can sent their kids to good schools without paying high tuitions. That improves the economy.

I don't think throwing money at our educational problems is the answer, but neither is making schools out of reach to anyone but the wealthy. Good parenting and relevant, motivational curricula are vital.
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Old 01-07-2008, 04:42 PM   #69
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Wow, that's impressive. If a classroom had 30 students and every penny of their tuition went directly to the teacher, that would be a salary of $15k/yr and no benefits whatsoever. That assumes not a penny going for the physical plant, administration, text books and supplies, etc. Those folks really have their act together on cost control.
My SIL taught in a Lutheran school and I believe her salary was around $20K with modest health care, no pension.
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:12 PM   #70
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Well I pay $1,200 property tax on a $47K home so I don't see $12,000 on a $470K home to be that outrageous...
Don't forget that is cost just as much to put out a fire in your house as it would in a mansion; if you have kids it would cost just as much to educate them as those of your neighbors in a mansion. Snow removal to get to your house would be no cheaper than to the homes of your big house neighbors. Police to patrol your neighborhood would cost as much or maybe more than patrols into wealthy districts.

So you are paying a pretty rate for your services.

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Old 01-07-2008, 05:33 PM   #71
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But an educated public is an advantage to the entire community. An educated public improves the quality of life.
Can't disagree with that W2R. I guess my real point was that if we are going to have parents pay tuition for elementary school as was suggested, I'd much rather see the tax subsidies pulled from public colleges and universities first. It's one thing to miss out on a college education. Another to never get to attend elementary school and be illiterate.
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:40 PM   #72
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If only the parents pay for tuition, then there would be a considerably (I'm totally guessing at about 65%) less people having kids.
If there were 65% less children being born for too long, that would mean that there may not be enough to support the population as they age. And I'm not just referring to Social Security.
Catholics have been paying school taxes AND paying high tuition for their kids to go to parochial school for many many years.

It hasn't kept them from havng their share of kids.

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Old 01-07-2008, 08:15 PM   #73
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OK, I can't believe I am saying this since I generally prefer lower taxes and smaller government.

But an educated public is an advantage to the entire community. An educated public improves the quality of life.
Agreed, but why not have both?

Along with the above beliefs, I also believe that competition is good. So, if we had some kind of voucher system, and private schools were competing for a family's voucher money, we might get more education for fewer dollars?

Competition also solves another problem. I know some people are concerned that teachers unions sometimes have too much power. But, I have also heard the teacher's side of this - since there is only one employer in their state, they need some protection. Competition fixes that. If one private school does not treat their teachers right, the teachers can more easily move to another employer.

Now, to be honest, that's the first time I've given much thought to school vouchers. Maybe there are downsides, but it looks pretty good to me.

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Old 01-07-2008, 08:37 PM   #74
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Agreed, but why not have both?

Along with the above beliefs, I also believe that competition is good. So, if we had some kind of voucher system, and private schools were competing for a family's voucher money, we might get more education for fewer dollars?

Competition also solves another problem. I know some people are concerned that teachers unions sometimes have too much power. But, I have also heard the teacher's side of this - since there is only one employer in their state, they need some protection. Competition fixes that. If one private school does not treat their teachers right, the teachers can more easily move to another employer.

Now, to be honest, that's the first time I've given much thought to school vouchers. Maybe there are downsides, but it looks pretty good to me.

-ERD50
The biggest issues with vouchers is the impact they would have on the private and parochial school systems. Currently these schools are extremely efficient and available to your kids right now. They collect tuition, run bake sales, car washes, Vegas nights, etc., etc. and somehow provide great educations for minimal bux. I don't want to taint them with public voucher money. They would never be the same afterwards.

And the huge increase in taxes would be painful! Right now, the private and parochial schools take care of themselves and taxes pay for the public schools. In your voucher proposal, all the kids who are currently private pays in the private systems would recieve vouchers at tax payers expense. No thanks........ In our town about half the kids attend private and parochial schools as private pays. A voucher system could nearly double my RE tax. Unless maybe you want to mail them vouchers from over your way.......
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Old 01-07-2008, 08:39 PM   #75
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sorry double post.
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Old 01-07-2008, 08:51 PM   #76
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And the huge increase in taxes would be painful! Right now, the private and parochial schools take care of themselves and taxes pay for the public schools. In your voucher proposal, all the kids who are currently private pays in the private systems would recieve vouchers at tax payers expense. No thanks........
OK, I'm sure the people sending their kids to private school now would be in favor of it!

I don't know, what % of students go to private schools in the US? Would it be such a big shift? Private high schools around me are pretty few and far between. The overall efficiency improvements might pay to pick up the extra students covered by vouchers? Maybe?

Of course, any of these private schools could still run bake sales for above-and-beyond expenses. Yes, there might not be the same incentive - it would be 'we paid you, now provide the services'. No 'guilt' pressure to help out. But it could be done, I think. For example, if School A and School B both provided very similar education and amenities, they could say - hey let's have a car wash to raise money for a new whatever, and then we will have that whatever, and the other school won't. Yeah team!

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Old 01-07-2008, 09:03 PM   #77
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OK, I'm sure the people sending their kids to private school now would be in favor of it!
No sh*t!
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I don't know, what % of students go to private schools in the US?
Not sure. If I can get it figured out, where should I send the bill to YOU to pay for their vouchers? Can't be more than a few million of them.
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Of course, any of these private schools could still run bake sales for above-and-beyond expenses. Yes, there might not be the same incentive
Once the vouchers start, you could expect about the same level of private paying and fund raising as you have at public schools today.

Sorry, but I want private schools to exist as private schools, not semi-public schools. If I want my grandkids (and they and their folks want, of course) to attend private schools, I'll pay. No vouchers. No government restrictions, rules, bylaws, criteria, agendas. Private. Period.
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Old 01-07-2008, 09:15 PM   #78
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sorry double post.
(oops, I see our posts are crossing, but I'm too lazy to edit this one, so here you go. I won't be offended if you're too lazy to read it!)

I'll give a double reply anyway

I just looked up the nearest Parochial HS, and compared to a local public HS.

Expenditure per student, $7,700 Parochial, $10,800 public.

A difference, but maybe not so great really. Tough to compare what you get for your money. Typically only people that value education enough to pay that tuition on top of taxes are going to send their kids, so it is a 'self-selected' group of students. They likely would do better with less money spent. And the public school does need to take everyone.

Would that get watered down if the Parochial parents had a voucher to use for some/all of the tuition? I don't know. The parochial school could still be 'choosy' about who gets admitted. Or do you think that the infusion of money would 'corrupt' the parochial school? The govt is already involved as far as standards and all sorts of requirements.

And, theoretically, the private, competitive schools should be able to come closer to the $7,700 number from the $10,800 number. That would lessen the effect.

And to be clear, I'm not arguing the point. I'm just trying to think it through. I don't know the answers.

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Old 01-07-2008, 09:26 PM   #79
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(I just looked up the nearest Parochial HS, and compared to a local public HS.

Expenditure per student, $7,700 Parochial, $10,800 public.
And you want to screw this up? Why?
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Would that get watered down if the Parochial parents had a voucher to use for some/all of the tuition?
Absolutely. Just think about human nature.
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The parochial school could still be 'choosy' about who gets admitted.
Could they? Lots of tax payers would make a career out of questioning why they're paying for that neighborhood school but their child is excluded. Especially if they suspect part of the criteria is religion, or a fraternal organization, etc. And if you want to exclude religious attributes, well there you go screwing up the school again. What do you have against private and parochial schools that you want to screw them up?
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Old 01-07-2008, 10:21 PM   #80
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Expenditure per student, $7,700 Parochial, $10,800 public.

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And you want to screw this up? Why?
My premise is that the competition would move the new private-business schools to the $7,700 level. hmmm, I just checked - that is $7,700 tuition which may be different from 'expenditure', assuming gifting, fund raising, etc. If so, that closes the gap between parochial school and public school spending.

So maybe this would be a savings for all involved? Just say 10% of students attend private schools now. If the current public school costs came down 10% due to competition, it would be a wash, right?

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Would that get watered down if the Parochial parents had a voucher to use for some/all of the tuition? I don't know.
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Absolutely. Just think about human nature.
You're probably right. It's the old 'I've got a stake in it' factor. But maybe overall, we would be better with the other 90% (or whatever) now 'having a stake in it' also?

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The parochial school could still be 'choosy' about who gets admitted.
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Could they? Lots of tax payers would make a career out of questioning why they're paying for that neighborhood school but their child is excluded.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding how vouchers would work (a distinct possibility). I thought it would be something like ' here is a $10,000 credit, use it at any school you choose, and yes each school may have specific entry requirements'. I don't think the govt would be paying for any school itself, just provide the credit for you to use?

I'm not sure how they deal with 'problem' students that the private schools would not want. MAybe the public schools have to take any overflow? I guess I need to google or wiki on this - but later.

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