This is sad, wanna work for 7 dollars an hour?

[ERD50]

And the huge increase in taxes would be painful! Right now, the private and parochial schools take care of themselves and taxes pay for the public schools. In your voucher proposal, all the kids who are currently private pays in the private systems would recieve vouchers at tax payers expense. No thanks........

OK, I'm sure the people sending their kids to private school now would be in favor of it!

I don't know, what % of students go to private schools in the US? Would it be such a big shift? Private high schools around me are pretty few and far between. The overall efficiency improvements might pay to pick up the extra students covered by vouchers? Maybe?

Of course, any of these private schools could still run bake sales for above-and-beyond expenses. Yes, there might not be the same incentive - it would be 'we paid you, now provide the services'. No 'guilt' pressure to help out. But it could be done, I think. For example, if School A and School B both provided very similar education and amenities, they could say - hey let's have a car wash to raise money for a new whatever, and then we will have that whatever, and the other school won't. Yeah team!

-ERD50

 

[youbet]

OK, I'm sure the people sending their kids to private school now would be in favor of it!

No sh*t!

I don't know, what % of students go to private schools in the US?

Not sure. If I can get it figured out, where should I send the bill to YOU to pay for their vouchers? Can't be more than a few million of them.

Of course, any of these private schools could still run bake sales for above-and-beyond expenses. Yes, there might not be the same incentive

Once the vouchers start, you could expect about the same level of private paying and fund raising as you have at public schools today.

Sorry, but I want private schools to exist as private schools, not semi-public schools. If I want my grandkids (and they and their folks want, of course) to attend private schools, I'll pay. No vouchers. No government restrictions, rules, bylaws, criteria, agendas. Private. Period.

 

[ERD50]

sorry double post.

(oops, I see our posts are crossing, but I'm too lazy to edit this one, so here you go. I won't be offended if you're too lazy to read it!)

I'll give a double reply anyway

I just looked up the nearest Parochial HS, and compared to a local public HS.

Expenditure per student, $7,700 Parochial, $10,800 public.

A difference, but maybe not so great really. Tough to compare what you get for your money. Typically only people that value education enough to pay that tuition on top of taxes are going to send their kids, so it is a 'self-selected' group of students. They likely would do better with less money spent. And the public school does need to take everyone.

Would that get watered down if the Parochial parents had a voucher to use for some/all of the tuition? I don't know. The parochial school could still be 'choosy' about who gets admitted. Or do you think that the infusion of money would 'corrupt' the parochial school? The govt is already involved as far as standards and all sorts of requirements.

And, theoretically, the private, competitive schools should be able to come closer to the $7,700 number from the $10,800 number. That would lessen the effect.

And to be clear, I'm not arguing the point. I'm just trying to think it through. I don't know the answers.

-ERD50

 

[youbet]

(I just looked up the nearest Parochial HS, and compared to a local public HS.

Expenditure per student, $7,700 Parochial, $10,800 public.

And you want to screw this up? Why?

Would that get watered down if the Parochial parents had a voucher to use for some/all of the tuition?

Absolutely. Just think about human nature.

The parochial school could still be 'choosy' about who gets admitted.

Could they? Lots of tax payers would make a career out of questioning why they're paying for that neighborhood school but their child is excluded. Especially if they suspect part of the criteria is religion, or a fraternal organization, etc. And if you want to exclude religious attributes, well there you go screwing up the school again. What do you have against private and parochial schools that you want to screw them up?
[/quote]

 

[ERD50]

Expenditure per student, $7,700 Parochial, $10,800 public.

And you want to screw this up? Why?

My premise is that the competition would move the new private-business schools to the $7,700 level. hmmm, I just checked - that is $7,700 tuition which may be different from 'expenditure', assuming gifting, fund raising, etc. If so, that closes the gap between parochial school and public school spending.

So maybe this would be a savings for all involved? Just say 10% of students attend private schools now. If the current public school costs came down 10% due to competition, it would be a wash, right?

Would that get watered down if the Parochial parents had a voucher to use for some/all of the tuition? I don't know.

Absolutely. Just think about human nature.

You're probably right. It's the old 'I've got a stake in it' factor. But maybe overall, we would be better with the other 90% (or whatever) now 'having a stake in it' also?

The parochial school could still be 'choosy' about who gets admitted.

Could they? Lots of tax payers would make a career out of questioning why they're paying for that neighborhood school but their child is excluded.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding how vouchers would work (a distinct possibility). I thought it would be something like ' here is a $10,000 credit, use it at any school you choose, and yes each school may have specific entry requirements'. I don't think the govt would be paying for any school itself, just provide the credit for you to use?

I'm not sure how they deal with 'problem' students that the private schools would not want. MAybe the public schools have to take any overflow? I guess I need to google or wiki on this - but later.

-ERD50

 

[barbarus]

The area where I would most like to see this applied is at the state universities. No tax subsidies! No schlorships! Students at state universities should pay the full cost of providing their education.

This is already happening youbet. States pay for less and less of university cost. Why throw the money away on powerless professors? Your tax money is much better distributed to political cronies. Scholarships are being replaced by loans that the students will spend some years paying back.

The one thing you won't get if school funding is cut is a reduction in your taxes. It will just go to a different group of people.

 

[Wags]

This is already happening youbet. States pay for less and less of university cost. Why throw the money away on powerless professors? Your tax money is much better distributed to political cronies. Scholarships are being replaced by loans that the students will spend some years paying back.

The one thing you won't get if school funding is cut is a reduction in your taxes. It will just go to a different group of people.

You got that right let's see there's been about a trillion dollars spent on the current Wars and I almost forgot about the millions of dollars thrown at No Child Left Behind.

We've got to clear some of the room out of the prisons so we can put the bad guys in there, like the pedophiles and the politicians. Kinky Friedman


GOD BLESS

 

[youbet]

The one thing you won't get if school funding is cut is a reduction in your taxes. It will just go to a different group of people.

Good point. I have no rebuttal to that at all.......

 

[youbet]

I'm not sure how they deal with 'problem' students that the private schools would not want. MAybe the public schools have to take any overflow? I guess I need to google or wiki on this - but later.

-ERD50

Yep, there are lots of issues. That's just one of dozens and dozens.

On that one issue in particular, if you force schools that were previously referred to as public schools to take all the special needs students, handicapped students, ESL students, etc., you haven't created a competitive playing field at all. You've just decided to use tax dollars to fund private and religious schools.

If the only private schools within a reasonable distance won't take my kid because he/she is the wrong religion, color, needs wheel chair access, etc., then you've forced me to waste my life making local politicians as miserable as possible 24x7.

So, yeah, do some research and try to think of specific answers to questions like that one, or how the cost reductions will actually be realized while increasing taxes to pay for private/religious students to attend their schools.

 

[ERD50]

Yep, there are lots of issues. That's just one of dozens and dozens.

On that one issue in particular, if you force schools that were previously referred to as public schools to take all the special needs students, handicapped students, ESL students, etc., you haven't created a competitive playing field at all. You've just decided to use tax dollars to fund private and religious schools.

If the only private schools within a reasonable distance won't take my kid because he/she is the wrong religion, color, needs wheel chair access, etc., then you've forced me to waste my life making local politicians as miserable as possible 24x7.

So, yeah, do some research ...

I will do some more research, I've pretty much ignored the voucher idea in the past though I know it gets a lot of support in some areas (but so do some wacky ideas, so that is not meant as a quality measure).

But the special needs student issue does not strike me as deal-breaker at all. Since the school district is currently paying more to help those kids, that could be part of their voucher. And the private schools could be required to accept their 'fair share' of special needs students (how do parochial schools deal with this today?). Maybe certain schools would be allowed to 'focus' their programs - one could be better equipped with physical therapy, another with more ESL facilities, etc.

While there may be significant issues with vouchers, the relevant thing to keep in mind is - are those issues worse than the issues with the current system?

I also don't want to sound as if I'm bashing the current system. There are the dramatic flaws like the New York 'rubber room' for some non-functional teachers, and many less dramatic flaws. But despite those flaws, I think the vast majority of teachers and administrators are trying hard to do a good job, and for the most part they do. But I've seen competition drive people to perform beyond where they ever thought they could. Overall, I'm leaning towards the idea that competition would help our schools too.

-ERD50

 

[lynxville]

You can compare tuition prices between parochial and public schools all you want, some schools are just better. I am not catholic but I have the deepest respect for Nuns that teach, it’s not about money to them, but they teach well. They also don’t tolerate cut ups.

The voucher program does include parochial enrollment and it should. But the number of vouchers is very limited, because of the strong teachers union, and an x-teacher for our governor.

Competition gives the consumer the best possible service for the best price. Our teachers union owns there own heath care insurance company. They have the highest cost for insurance anywhere I have ever heard of. They then pass that expense on to the tax payer. They also can retire at 50 years old and only work 6 to 7 months per year, so what is there real hourly wage? When they retire they get the pension at 50, social security from the union until they reach 65, and free health care. Exactly who else has better benefits than them?

Yes education is wonderful, but the public schools were ruined by me 45 years ago, and they are worse now.

At my grandsons Lutheran school they taught him to use computers in first grade, one foreign language mandatory, and he plays 3 different instruments. He is in 5th. Grade now and can read excellent, his spelling is better than mine, and his math skills are excellent.

 

[Spanky]

They also can retire at 50 years old and only work 6 to 7 months per year, so what is there real hourly wage?

6 months = multiply pay by 2
7 months = multiply pay by 1.7
8 months = multiply pay by 1.5
9 months = multiply pay by 1.3

When they retire they get the pension at 50, social security from the union until they reach 65, and free health care. Exactly who else has better benefits than them?

police chiefs and officers, FBI/CIA agents, fire fighters, congress men/women, air traffic controllers, CEOs, etc.

 

[dumpster56]

I keep hearing this oh it only costs 7700 at the private HS and 10400 at the public HS. You forget, at the public HS we must provide Security, Busing and other fixed costs that the private schools well just do not have.

 

[Spanky]

I keep hearing this oh it only costs 7700 at the private HS and 10400 at the public HS. You forget, at the public HS we must provide Security, Busing and other fixed costs that the private schools well just do not have.

.. also public schools incur additional cost for children with special needs; higher administrative costs because of compliance with federal, state and local laws in educating children, such as funding, program development and curriculum; higher teacher salaries; pension benefits.

 

[dumpster56]

I taught a class of ED high school students who would tear up a private high school! These students were the most disturbed teenagers that I had ever worked with. Yep the public HS had to have IEPs and kept some of them to the age of 21. Almost all the private HS in the country would NEVER ACCEPT THESE STUDENTS!!! Oh it IS cheaper to keep them in a public HS even at 15K a year than a prison cell at 50K a year!

I just love the BS about Competition to make the public schools better, whata crock of....

 

[ERD50]

I just love the BS about Competition to make the public schools better, whata crock of....

newguy888, I agree that the private to public school is not an apples-to-apples comparison, for many reasons.

But skip that for a minute - wouldn't competition be a good thing? Why not? It seems to work fairly well just about everywhere, or at least better than alternatives.

-ERD50

 

[Spanky]

I taught a class of ED high school students who would tear up a private high school! These students were the most disturbed teenagers that I had ever worked with. Yep the public HS had to have IEPs and kept some of them to the age of 21. Almost all the private HS in the country would NEVER ACCEPT THESE STUDENTS!!! Oh it IS cheaper to keep them in a public HS even at 15K a year than a prison cell at 50K a year!

If discipline problems persist in the classroom, it will prevent the children who want to learn from receiving the best education possible regardless of how good the teachers are and how involved the parents are. Since private schools can select their students, they tend not to exhibit this kind of problem.

 

[youbet]

newguy888, I agree that the private to public school is not an apples-to-apples comparison, for many reasons.

But skip that for a minute - wouldn't competition be a good thing? Why not? It seems to work fairly well just about everywhere, or at least better than alternatives.

-ERD50

There is competition between private and public schools right now, today, at this very moment. I like that. How do you feel about it?

 

[youbet]

6 months = multiply pay by 2
7 months = multiply pay by 1.7
8 months = multiply pay by 1.5
9 months = multiply pay by 1.3

police chiefs and officers, FBI/CIA agents, fire fighters, congress men/women, air traffic controllers, CEOs, etc.

Spanky..... You didn't convert to the "real hourly wage" requested by lynxvile. You converted to an "annualized" wage. For example, if my neighbor pays me $20 to spend one hour cutting his grass, that is the equivalent of $41,600 annualized. ($20 x 2080 hr = $41,600.)

That's what irritates me about those "illegals" who sneak across the border and do landscaping work here. We let them stay and they make $41,600 annualized for doing one lousy hour of work cutting my neighbor's grass.

Teachers are cheap. It's those landscaping guys who are ripping us off! $41,600 annualized for one lousy hour of work......sheeeze.....!! We should be issued government vouchers to pay anyone we want to cut our grass! With a $41,600 voucher, I bet I could get thefed to drive out here and do it!

 

[FinanceDude]

I taught a class of ED high school students who would tear up a private high school! These students were the most disturbed teenagers that I had ever worked with. Yep the public HS had to have IEPs and kept some of them to the age of 21. Almost all the private HS in the country would NEVER ACCEPT THESE STUDENTS!!! Oh it IS cheaper to keep them in a public HS even at 15K a year than a prison cell at 50K a year!

I just love the BS about Competition to make the public schools better, whata crock of....

My neighbor is a history teacher at a private high school. He told me his students are awesome, then added "But I suppose when Mom and Dad are paying an extra $12,000 a year for them to attend, I get "total cooperation"..............

 

[FinanceDude]

I keep hearing this oh it only costs 7700 at the private HS and 10400 at the public HS. You forget, at the public HS we must provide Security, Busing and other fixed costs that the private schools well just do not have.

A lot of private schools don't have free health care or pensions..........

 

[HFWR]

"It's a verb: to shank..."

It seems to me that the argument is somewhat analogous to end-of-life care. When do we pull the plug on disinterested, disruptive, unmotivated students?

Where the analogy breaks down is that when you "pull the plug", the patient dies. The "student", however, will still be around...

Guess they can make license plates...

 

[REWahoo]

It seems to me that the argument is somewhat analogous to end-of-life care. When do we pull the plug on disinterested, disruptive, unmotivated students?

Where the analogy breaks down is that when you "pull the plug", the patient dies. The "student", however, will still be around...

Guess they can make license plates...

As I was reading this quote, it struck me that this would equally be true if you replaced the word "students" with "trolls"...

 

[HFWR]

Trolls can make license plates?

 

[FinanceDude]

It seems to me that the argument is somewhat analogous to end-of-life care. When do we pull the plug on disinterested, disruptive, unmotivated students?

Where the analogy breaks down is that when you "pull the plug", the patient dies. The "student", however, will still be around...

Guess they can make license plates...

I don't understand the "dis-connect". Ultimately, teachers should not be "baby-sitters". I suppose it was easier in the old days when they could actually inflict discipline without the fear of lawsuit..........

One of my friends had two teenage daughters expelled from their school for smoking pot in the bathroom. No second chance, no appeal, or anything.

She had to move them to a different school farther away, go through a bunch of hassles,etc. All I can say is their behavior has been modified 1000% to the better. And, knowing her, the girls got some behavior modification at home that made them LOOK FORWARD to school to escape her wrath............

So, in the end, it's about PARENTING..........