Wealth Inequality - again

[Martha]

+1

But, cb7010, it's more sanctimonius to try to do it with other peoples money...

I find it interesting that no one on this board who advocates for higher taxes has voluntarily stepped up and sent the IRS a big fat goodwill check to salve their conscience. (AFAIK, I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) If you really feel that way, what difference does it make what your neighbor is doing? Do you donate to your favorite charities because they do? Do you try to match what they put out for the Goodwill truck? Buy the same amount of Girl Scout cookies? When the rubber hits the road, talk is cheap.

How is that interesting? If I don't like our tax policy and don't like our social policies how could my sending in more taxes than I owe help at all? It isn't an effective political statement. It doesn't establish programs, improve education, or improve health care access. Because society doesn't step up the best I can do is try to personally step up and do what I can on a small level.

 

[Andre1969]

Every time there's a recession, it tends to widen the gap between rich and poor, and stretch the middle class. There's really nothing political about it though; often it just depends on luck. If you're middle class, and managed to keep your job, then during the recession you were able to keep on investing, buying more shares at fire sale prices, so when the economy improved, your standing improved with it.

However, if you got laid off, you might have had to dip into savings or retirement, or borrow against your home. Or if it was bad enough, you might have even lost your home.

Or even if you still had your job, but were living beyond your means and had a low-interest mortgage that happened to reset, you might have had to cash in some savings/retirement, or lose the house, or just go further under water in some way.

An improving economy only benefits those who are lucky (or smart, in some cases) enough to take part in it.

 

[RetiredGypsy]

...the failures of [-]a few[/-] all communist countries...

Martha, I don't know how easy it is to blame the education system. If someone feels they're lacking a worthwhile opportunity to learn in school, there are so many places to supplement that and learn something worthwhile. An unwillingness to learn and more rigidity in keeping someone unwilling in the classroom instead of dropping out of school doesn't help.

 

[Martha]

Writing to your Congresscritter? Please. If voting really changed anything, they would make it illegal. That goes double for letters to Congress.

It is depressing to send a very well thought out letter raising a particular issue and get a form letter back which entirely misses the point.

I think that if an issue is very important to you and you want to effect change the best thing to do is be active as an organizer or as part of an organization that lobbies. Even so, it is a long shot that you will make a difference. But doing nothing certainly won't make a difference.

 

[Martha]

Martha, I don't know how easy it is to blame the education system. If someone feels they're lacking a worthwhile opportunity to learn in school, there are so many places to supplement that and learn something worthwhile. An unwillingness to learn and more rigidity in keeping someone unwilling in the classroom instead of dropping out of school doesn't help.

So you want the kids to figure it out.

 

[lets-retire]

The rich keep doing the things that made them rich and the poor keep doing the things that made them poor.

I think this sums up the situation completely. 20 years ago I couldn't even afford to buy new clothes, or clothes from Goodwill for that matter. I had little more than a high school education and no hope for any type of advancement. I decided to change what I was doing and took several risks. Now is a much different story. It took me 20 years, but I have all of the things I want, and money on the side for enjoyment and savings for a rainy day and retirement. The wife no longer has to work if she doesn't want to, but she chooses to work. In four days I receive what will probably be my last promotion at work. If the next 20 are as good as the first 20, retirement is going to be awesome.

 

[brewer12345]

It is depressing to send a very well thought out letter raising a particular issue and get a form letter back which entirely misses the point.

I think that if an issue is very important to you and you want to effect change the best thing to do is be active as an organizer or as part of an organization that lobbies. Even so, it is a long shot that you will make a difference. But doing nothing certainly won't make a difference.

Agree on all points.

 

[lets-retire]

Martha, I don't know how easy it is to blame the education system. If someone feels they're lacking a worthwhile opportunity to learn in school, there are so many places to supplement that and learn something worthwhile. An unwillingness to learn and more rigidity in keeping someone unwilling in the classroom instead of dropping out of school doesn't help.

So you want the kids to figure it out.

I don't think forcing a kid to stay in school is the answer. A person has to want to learn in order to learn. If the kid has the desire to be a plumber, auto mechanic, electrician, but not the desire to stay in school, I see no reason not to offer those particular classes for those particular students. I don't know how fesible it would be to implement, but having a vo-tech type high school would probably be better for those who don't want to stay in school. At least it would give them the education to perform some type of function in our society.

 

[RetiredGypsy]

So you want the kids to figure it out.

So what does the wonderful world of perfect education look like in your mind then?

 

[rescueme]

No I am not talking about those who add in their pensions and SS and count the toilet paper in their closets when they figure net worth.)

Believe me, if you were sitting in a public toilet and suddenly realized there was no TP, you would probably pay a lot for a few sheets.

It has value .

 

[Westernskies]

I find it equally interesting that nobody who's advocated for lower government spending and cutting entitlements has ever returned a social security check or withheld their medicare card when getting health care or given money to their parents so they could do those things.

FWIW, I have never collected a cent in SS or Medicaid; but I have been paying into the system for 40 years with the promise of a future benefit; i.e. a contract with the federal government. Now that contract is being unilaterally changed because they comingled/overstated/mismanaged/wasted/overspent the funds I paid them... and now [-]you[/-] they want more. I held up my end of the bargain; they didn't. That is why I have a hard time with those who feel we have a "duty" to pay higher taxes to prop up a bloated, wasteful self-serving government with no accountability. Time to start cutting instead of spending. If tax hikes are inevitable (like death and taxes? ) then everyone needs to shares the burden; we all have a stake in the outcome.

PJ O'Rourke said it best ~" "Giving money to the Federal Government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys"

 

[nun]

many of those "tax-comparison" between countries articles ignore SS, Property, State, and sales taxes.

When the all-in comparison is made tax levels are more equitable than the articles would lead you to believe.

Agreed. I have looked at my overall tax bill in the UK vs the US and find that I pay slightly less in the UK. The definition of tax has to be quite broad to include, income, property, SS, and healthcare, sales taxes

UK has higher income, SS taxes and sales tax but there's no state tax, property tax is far less and of course those higher income and SS taxes pay for healthcare. Just from property tax and healthcare in ER I would pay $10k less a year in the UK than the US.

 

[RetiredGypsy]

It is depressing to send a very well thought out letter raising a particular issue and get a form letter back which entirely misses the point.

I think that if an issue is very important to you and you want to effect change the best thing to do is be active as an organizer or as part of an organization that lobbies. Even so, it is a long shot that you will make a difference. But doing nothing certainly won't make a difference.

If you're lucky, what you want changed is already on the mind of a very large and influential lobbying group. If everyone else is unlucky, that potential is just as true in some cases.

Fighting the good fight has a history of working in affecting the change you want. Doing nothing has a 100% chance, backed by all of human history of, of doing the exact opposite.

If the kid has the desire to be a plumber, auto mechanic, electrician, but not the desire to stay in school, I see no reason not to offer those particular classes for those particular students.

I don't know how many classes they went to, but when taking a CAD, design and drafting course in high school, a local HVAC company came around to try and do just this. They offered a chance to apprentice and learn, gave a very good lecture on the type of work, a history of the pay they've given. One of the few days in high school where I retained something, and I love to learn.

I don't know how legitimate vocational schools are, but it'd be nice if they were more mainstream than they seem to be now. Not everyone cares that George Washington fake teeth; and it sure as hell wasn't true that Christopher Columbus once sat on the docks as a child, saw a mast coming over the horizon and first thought the world was round (and equally untrue that we're the only country that's had stupid crap like this stuffed in our textbooks).

 

[HFWR]

PJ O'Rourke said it best ~" "Giving money to the Federal Government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys"

These young people and their sense of entitlement. We had to buy our own whiskey...

 

[RetiredGypsy]

Now that contract is being unilaterally changed because they comingled/overstated/mismanaged/wasted/overspent the funds I paid them... and now [-]you[/-] they want more. I held up my end of the bargain; they didn't.

Hard to read the fine print when they feel like they can add it in long after you've signed.

 

[rescueme]

...given money to their parents so they could do those things.

Actually, in a way I have.

The taxes (SS/Medicare) during my wo*king years paid for SS/Medicare for my parents (and grandparents) while they were all alive.

That's how the system works. It's not an "investment" and it's not "free". I may not have covered all their payments over the years, but I covered a portion of them.

Nothing more than the folks still in the wo*kforce do today for us "old pharts"...

BTW, not all folks have "kids" to help them out in life, as you suggest. Many have chosen a child-free life. Others have other situations that don't fit the old idea of family helping family. Support of elderly folks is a social problem, not strictly a financial one, as many in the popular press are trying to make a case for, by elimination of "entitlements".

 

[Martha]

So what does the wonderful world of perfect education look like in your mind then?

I don't believe in perfect. How about looking at schools that do well for people in similar circumstances and see what can be done to emulate them? Some charter schools have been great experiments. Plus, I have some strong feelings on other school issues but sharing them they probably violate the community rules of this forum.

 

[haha]

Our education system may be much of the problem.

No doubt with only a little more money our government and public schools can make it all better. They have certainly worked wonders so far!

Ha

 

[Martha]

I don't know how legitimate vocational schools are, but it'd be nice if they were more mainstream than they seem to be now. Not everyone cares that George Washington fake teeth; and it sure as hell wasn't true that Christopher Columbus once sat on the docks as a child, saw a mast coming over the horizon and first thought the world was round (and equally untrue that we're the only country that's had stupid crap like this stuffed in our textbooks).

See, there are things that can be done to improve education!

 

[Texas Proud]

You might have missed the point; there have been quite a few members clamoring for higher income taxes for everyone, but no one seems to want to lead by example...

I agree with you, BTW; with one caveat- check the operating expenses of your favorite charities; you may be shocked at how little actually trickles down to where it's really needed; some of them make the federal government and television ministries look like paragons of efficiency.

Very true about charities... some only get 5% to the real charity aspect... the rest is wasted on overhead or just plain stealing of money by the head of the charity... (stealing with a high salary that is legal)

 

[Independent]

FWIW, I have never collected a cent in SS or Medicaid; but I have been paying into the system for 40 years with the promise of a future benefit; i.e. a contract with the federal government. Now that contract is being unilaterally changed because they comingled/overstated/mismanaged/wasted/overspent the funds I paid them... and now [-]you[/-] they want more. I held up my end of the bargain; they didn't. That is why I have a hard time with those who feel we have a "duty" to pay higher taxes to prop up a bloated, wasteful self-serving government with no accountability. Time to start cutting instead of spending. If tax hikes are inevitable (like death and taxes? ) then everyone needs to shares the burden; we all have a stake in the outcome.

PJ O'Rourke said it best ~" "Giving money to the Federal Government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys"

Yes, it's time to start cutting instead of spending. The problem is, any politician brave enough to specify exactly where he'd cut loses the votes of the people who benefited from that spending. It's always "Don't cut me, and don't cut thee, cut the guy behind the tree". Every beneficiary of federal spending believes that lots of spending is wasteful, but their favorite program is different.

Regarding SS and Medicare, I'm quite sure you can't find a signed copy of that contract anywhere in your files. Maybe you believed a marketing pitch from a fast talking salesman. Sorry, if you believed you had a contract, you got scammed. Most of the people who sold that idea are already dead.

OTOH, I never believed I had a contract. I could see that SS was a pay-as-you-go retirement system that formalized our prior paygo system, and I knew that all retirement systems are sensitive to demographics. So I'm not irate about SS (I've got other things I can get mad about, but they are all tangents).

 

[RetiredGypsy]

Some charter schools have been great experiments.

I'll have to look more into that.

Regarding SS and Medicare, I'm quite sure you can't find a signed copy of that contract anywhere in your files.

Seems to me, when it says Social Security deduction in my weekly check, that's spelling it out pretty clearly. That's no longer "This tax money is going to the general slush fund for whatever purpose."

 

[MasterBlaster]

Seems to me, when it says Social Security deduction in my weekly check, that's spelling it out pretty clearly. That's no longer "This tax money is going to the general slush fund for whatever purpose."

You may feel as if there is a contract there - real or implied, but alas there is none.

 

[RetiredGypsy]

And so went George Orwell, laughing in his grave.

 

[Nords]

It seems logical to me concentration of wealth slows the velocity of money.

Others would claim that the return of conspicuous consumption (and threads like "Could you spend $300K/year") would only raise the velocity of money...

So what does the wonderful world of perfect education look like in your mind then?

Y'know, for the number of times we've had that heated discussion on this board, cynical & confrontational vocabulary seems like a leaky can of gasoline sitting next to the campfire.

Hawaii has a shortage of workers in the skilled construction and shipyard trades*, but I think vo-tech is on the rise again. With a combination of federal & state funding, the local trade unions have started aggressively recruiting high-school sophomores. Three years later my college daughter (studying civil eng) is still ticked off that she didn't make the time in summer school for that four-week "Building & Construction" course, or take advantage of more of the community-college trade classes that were brought into the high schools.

Meanwhile, by coming from the college campus to the high-school classrooms, the community colleges helped a lot of high-school seniors realize that not all classes are like high school and that college isn't such a scary place after all. Many high-school grads (if they graduate at all) don't have that epiphany until they're well into their 20s.

* Pearl Harbor shipyard realized they were in demographic trouble when their optical shop was overwhelmed with a wave of requests for trifocal safety goggles...