Homeowner Associations/Condo Associations

[donheff]

I have always lived in the city so I had no experience with a HOA until I built a weekend place on the tidal Potomac. I got a great deal on land during the real estate slump in the early 90s and it happened to be in a waterfront development with a POA (we called it the property owners association since there were not a lot of homes up). After 15 years I have to say I appreciate the advantages. Some of the pictures posted above look a lot like dumpy trailers I have seen planted next door to nice water front homes. A friend of mine looked at a beautiful place, right on a point, but there was a dump fifty yards inland occupied by bikers of the 9% persuasion (or whatever the outlaw number is). Our POA covenants set minimum lot sizes, minimum home size, prohibit trailers, limit parking (no boats, campers, semis in the driveways, etc) but otherwise pretty much leave people alone. I am amazed at some of the goofy stuff people put up in this "classy" area - e.g. lawn fountains out of the Sopranos (no offense to you fountain fans . I would hate to see what might happen without restrictions.

The unfortunate part of the POA is that I got drafted to serve on the board. I am the Treasurer and could do without the extra responsibilities. Luckily there are two energetic retired senior military officers who do the brunt of the board's work. They are pretty controllling but generally well intentioned and good natured so things have gone smoothly.

 

[Andre1969]

well, I don't understand how someone could get a house up to 136 cats without it getting reported well in advance. And at that point yeah, it's a real health issue.

But again, there should be rules on noise, smell, and health issues. Those things affect the neighbors. Whether I have two cats or dogs or three has, in and of itself, no bearing on anybody else. The annoying thing about the condo where I lived was that we did have people who had dogs that would bark constantly. They'd put the dogs out in their courtyard and then leave, and the dogs would howl incessantly the whole time they were gone. On this issue the association wouldn't step up. They'd just tell you to call animal control. Same for dogs running loose through the condo property. Even if you could trace down the owner, they'd tell you to call animal control; they wanted nothing to do with it. Yet they wanted to tell you how many animals you could have which, quite frankly, is none of their business.

Now if you rent a home, yes, the owner has the right to tell you if you can have pets or not. And if you go into a restaurant, you are entering someone else's private property, and they have the right to enforce rules. But when I own the home I live in, sorry. You can enforce the common grounds area as much as you want. But as long as there's no county regulations regarding how many animals you can have in your own home, and as long as it's not affecting anybody else, it's simply nobody else's freaking business!

Plus, in my case, this was a rule that they came up with after the fact, and not set into place from the get-go. There was no rule on animals when I moved in, but it was placed several years later.

 

[REWahoo]

It's those HOA's that draw the discussions that are making some uncomfortable.

You can always back away and ignore this thread if it makes you uneasy...

Luckily there are two energetic retired senior military officers who do the brunt of the board's work. They are pretty controllling but generally well intentioned and good natured so things have gone smoothly.

There is little in this world more dangerous than a "well-intentioned, controlling, retired senior military officer"....

(For those of you who care to point out such things, yes, I do realize that "controlling" and "retired senior military officer" are redundant terms.)

 

[Cut-Throat]

Now if you rent a home, yes, the owner has the right to tell you if you can have pets or not. And if you go into a restaurant, you are entering someone else's private property, and they have the right to enforce rules. But when I own the home I live in, sorry. You can enforce the common grounds area as much as you want. But as long as there's no county regulations regarding how many animals you can have in your own home, and as long as it's not affecting anybody else, it's simply nobody else's freaking business!

Plus, in my case, this was a rule that they came up with after the fact, and not set into place from the get-go. There was no rule on animals when I moved in, but it was placed several years later.

Yes it is their freaking business as long as you choose to live there.- Why are you willing to accept the State and county's rules, but not the HOA? The Federal, State, County and City all make rules after you move in. Your choice to to get politically active or move.

 

[OAG]

I have lived in a couple of HOA type communities. The last was down in FL. Golf Course Community, Gated and very nice place. I served on the "Covenient Enforce Committee" both as a member and as the Chair. Believe me the main problem with most if not all HOA is getting owners to participate. We had 630 homes and you would be lucky to see 25-30 of those homes represented at ANY type of meeting, monthly or annual. Getting members to volenteer for committies was next to impossible. It is sad since for most of us and them our home is our biggest monetary investment yet we, for the most part, are not interested in participating in the communities management in a positive manner - but many sure can sit around the clubhouse and complain an the management; thats is the easiest thing to do. The rules are usually very clear to buyers as they are furnished to them BEFORE they purchase. In some cases the builders will actually wait until just before closing to whip the booklet on the buyers JUST PRIOR TO SIGNING which does a disservice to the buyers and the community, but once signed they become the RULES to live by.

 

[ladelfina]

Cut-Throat.. maybe you thought I was attacking you.. I wasn't! I said it was "funny" about the kinds of people in the sense that it seems like both left/right seemingly laidback/uptight folks here have found something to like about them.

I wasn't aware there were areas where the majority of homes have these kinds of restrictions. (No sitting out front in a lawn chair drinking beer?) Sure, that rankles my sense of what should be "private property".. but hey.. I'm "over it.." I don't want to rain on anyone's parade if they're doing what makes them happy and not hurting anybody else.

It's true that the HOAs that tell you what kind of curtains you have to have give more reasonable ones a bad name. (No kids toys visible!?!?) But about enforcement and power trips, I just read someone complaining that when his HOA head (also head of local GOP) saw his Kerry bumper sticker, he started getting called on every tiny infraction--just him. Just sounds like a system set up for abuse (if not run by Cut-Throat, N.B.!!!!).  

Too many physical rules about minimum size lots, minimum size house (3000 s.f.? gag!), setback from roads, not only encourage sprawl but also alienate people. I went back to find something I was reading a while back that was food for thought:
http://www.lesstraffic.com/Articles/Traffic/SRactivity.htm
about ways to "reclaim the street" and calm traffic through "intrigue and uncertainty"!  

P.S. I have chickens on 2 sides, and cows (2 -- that must be the HOA limit   ) and geese on the other. No strange odors (or even common odors that might be perceived as bad...ask astromeria if you don't believe me). Plus the neighbors give us free eggs!  

Just curious.. are HOAs infinite? Could the majority vote the HOA out of existence? How come people/developers got along ok before HOAs became the norm? I also wonder what % of new construction is under HOAs...

 

[Cut-Throat]

How come people/developers got along ok before HOAs became the norm?

They didn't! - That's what caused HOA's to be created.

 

[Andre1969]

I actually tried serving on our board of directors for awhile when I lived in my condo. And yeah, community participation was a HUGE problem. We had 108 units. I think we had nine members on the board of directors and needed at least 6 people to make quorum. It was very rare that a homeowner would actually come to the meetings, and in many cases, we couldn't even get 6 of the members on the board to come!

Some of the people on the board actually DID care about the community and wanted to make a difference. But some of them were really just little spittles in the cesspool of life, and thought being on the board suddenly made them an important spit. There was too much in-fighting and arguing, and people with their own personal agendas.

As for the 2-pet rule, it never did get enforced. I think it ultimately got dropped because it really wasn't a concern. Plus, the president of the association had something like 3 or 4 cats! Other problems we had were with parking. You needed a permit to park on condo property, and they issued two per unit. Each condo had a 1-car garage and a reserved spot in front of that garage, plus there was overflow parking scattered about. So theoretically you could have 3 cars on the property. One car without a permit in your garage and two with permits outside of it. However, we had people park sloppy and take up two overflow spots, or sometimes park in a way that it would block a reserved spot in. Towing was always a problem, because we never could find a reliable towing company. And again, it seemed the association would pick and choose who it went after.

Another problem was with people leaving their trashcans sitting out. These places were designed as quadriplexes, and 3 out of every 4 units had its own private courtyard. The 4th, which sat over a row of garages, had a deck. However, since everybody had a garage and 75% of people had a courtyard, there was no reason for anybody to have their trashcans sitting out, except for trash day. It finally got to the point that the president of the association would walk around and if a trashcan was still sitting out at the curb a day or two after trash day, she took it.

As for the units with the deck, another problem was people storing items underneath it. The only thing that was supposed to be under there was the outside unit for the heat pump. When I moved in, somebody left a huge round planter, about 2 feet across, underneath my deck, filled with gravel, tucked back in the corner. Nobody ever griped about it for the whole 10 years I owned that place. When I moved I took it with me, thinking I'd use it one day, but to this day it sits behind one of my outbuildings. However, some people would store bikes, toys, and other junk under those decks. And the way some of the quads were set up, some of them had all the electric meters for those units under there, so there were problems with the meters being blocked. The quad across the parking lot from me was set up so that one neighbor's entrance was right beside the other neighbor's deck, so they started storing their own junk under the neighbor's deck!

I actually don't have a problem with some rules, and I know that HOAs and condo associations are a necessary evil. However, a rule really has to have some basis in reality, a reason for being. Not just "I don't like something, so let's make a rule against it."

Back to the animal thing, again, 2 animals is just an arbitrary number, and there is no logic behind it. Set up a noise rule, smell rule, whatever, but have the rule be based on that. If you know that your neighbor has three cats in their house when the rule says they should only have two, but those cats are not actually bothering you (i.e., no noise, smell, etc) then as I said before, it's really none of your business. In this case, a rule like this is an invasion of privacy. It's like a rule saying that you can only paint the INSIDE of your house a certain color or put certain color rugs down. If it's inside the house and it doesn't affect the health, safety, or well-being of others, it's simply nobody's business, and associations have no business sticking their noses in it.

 

[donheff]

I went back to find something I was reading a while back that was food for thought:
http://www.lesstraffic.com/Articles/Traffic/SRactivity.htm
about ways to "reclaim the street" and calm traffic through "intrigue and uncertainty"!

Time for a thread hijack? This is one of the reasons I like living in the city and why, if we can only keep one place, it will be the one in the city. In addition to "street intrique" sidewalks and fairly dense building encourage community - people get out and walk in the neighborhood, see more of each other, etc. This is why some new communities are intentionally building in denser patterns with sidewalks, intersterspersed with parks and other green spaces.

I grew up in a residential single family home area on the south side of Chicago. We had cars parked in the streets, sidewalks - the traditional city neighborhood. The kids owned the streets. We played football, baseball (on the corner, sewer caps for bases), kick the can. We moved out of the way for traffic except while a play was in motion during which any cars coming by had to yield. I suspect the kids would be hustled off the streets if they tried that almost anywhere today.

 

[haha]

I said it was "funny" about the kinds of people in the sense that it seems like both left/right seemingly laidback/uptight folks here have found something to like about them.

See 60s San Francisco worker-philosopher Eric Hoffer for an explanation of how the far right and far left hold hands and close the circle.

Ha

 

[BarbaraAnne]

I'd love to have someone like Cut-Throat on the board of our homeowner's association.  Sadly, there is little participation in ours,  even though people are quite picky about the neighborhood.  

When someone, who is fair, and has the time and inclination to handle the details and nuisances of dealing with homeowners and maintaining the covenents, volunteers for the job, I think some gratitude is in order.  It's a job I wouldn't want but I sure appreciate those who do it and do a good job.

 

[ladelfina]

60s San Francisco worker-philosopher Eric Hoffer

I had more in mind Hayek but will look this guy up..  thanks, Ha

I think the problem starts when people find themselves saying "no" more than saying "yes"..
NO pets, NO kids' bikes on the lawn, NO flags, NO Hallowe'en decorations = NO LIFE! I mean, you'll have plenty of time to appreciate a quiet, well-maintained lawn in the cemetary.. do you really need to get a jump on that?

Once you put something in writing, then you have to define it, which then leads to problems which means more rules, more definitions, more descriptions, more provisions for penalties.. what about this extraordinary circumstance? what about that extraordinary person?  The more you keep writing, the more you find you have to write!!

In my particular case (the communist/socialist world that is Italy, where there are 10x as many laws on the books as there are in France), it has reached at point where, since there are SO many rules, and they are SO absurd and restrictive, people just collectively ignore them and you might as well have no rules at all (well almost).   
O0

 

[Nords]

We've lived in three different HOAs for over 17 years in California & Hawaii, including a period as a controlling junior military officer HOA board president, and I think the "bad" HOAs consist of 2% of them getting 98% of the publicity.

Serving on the board is a thankless time-sucking task, which is why the power-hungry anal-retentive people are the only ones who find the motivation to do so.  (Kinda like politics & public office.)  CC&Rs should have a clause that all residents serve at least one term on the HOA every decade in order to appreciate the process (and maybe even improve it).  

IMO the bigger HOAs (of at least 100 units) have fewer problems than the smaller HOAs.  Bigger HOAs attract a deeper pool of talent and can afford to hire professional staffs.  One of the biggest advantages of our smallest HOA (40 units) was its professional community manager (with a string of acronyms after his name) who attended every meeting.  When we were considering an issue he'd tell us what other associations had done in similar situations and he'd run down the typical legal issues.  He never made a recommendation but his experience was invaluable and kept us from wandering off the beaten track by duplicating local ordinances or, even worse, contradicting them.  His basic guidance was that if we made the rules, we'd have to enforce them or risk being sued for failure to do so.  It encouraged us to operate with as few rules as possible, referring most complaints to the local govts & police without having to take official action.

Despite their potential for abuse, I think HOAs afford an extra layer of property-value protection.  Hawaii's version of this is the homeowner who doesn't take care of their home.  The climate is mild enough that there's little penalty for neglect (compared to a New England winter) and some don't paint their homes until the bare siding is literally exposed.  Yards would sprout untended (or paved by monster pickup trucks) and blue tarp awnings would wave proudly over driveways filled with card tables, chairs, and other personal-property storage.  

However apathy can kill the system just as quickly.  One of our HOAs recently changed the CC&Rs to permit initiatives to pass with only 35% of the votes being "Yes".  The rule change had to go through another annual-meeting process after it was pointed out that it was incorrectly written to allow that to occur even if the remaining 65% of the residents voted "No", but now it finally says that if at least 35% of the residents can outnumber the opposed then they can change the CC&Rs.  As always, though, apathy continues to rule the majority.

For those of you who've never lived in an HOA and don't see the need-- I've paid fire insurance all my life and never used it.  For those of you who'd never live in an HOA-- at least you've researched the issue to know what you're talking about.  For those of you who've inadvertently ended up living in a HOA home-- caveat emptor.  You've lost your right to complain unless you get involved in the process!

You're right.  I don't serve on a HOA anymore and I don't even bother to attend the meetings.  I participate to the extent of making sure that we vote and file our proxies.  Maybe someday I'll be more interested in the HOA process again, but not if they continue to hold their meetings on tae kwon do nights.

 

[Cut-Throat]

NO pets, NO kids' bikes on the lawn, NO flags, NO Hallowe'en decorations = NO LIFE!

When you start seeing these things gracing the pages of architectural digest, our HOA will probably decide that we need them. Until then, all of our residents here have decided that they have more of a life without them. We've raised our kids already, and really would rather enjoy other things.

Just don't move into an HOA. I can tell you would not like it. And I really, really understand that you don't. Please understand that some do like it. We are really not all alike nor want to be.

 

[haha]

I had more in mind Hayek but will look this guy up..  thanks, Ha

I think the problem starts when people find themselves saying "no" more than saying "yes"..
NO pets, NO kids' bikes on the lawn, NO flags, NO Hallowe'en decorations = NO LIFE! I mean, you'll have plenty of time to appreciate a quiet, well-maintained lawn in the cemetary.. do you really need to get a jump on that?

Once you put something in writing, then you have to define it, which then leads to problems which means more rules, more definitions, more descriptions, more provisions for penalties.. what about this extraordinary circumstance? what about that extraordinary person?  The more you keep writing, the more you find you have to write!!

In my particular case (the communist/socialist world that is Italy, where there are 10x as many laws on the books as there are in France), it has reached at point where, since there are SO many rules, and they are SO absurd and restrictive, people just collectively ignore them and you might as well have no rules at all (well almost).   
O0

This is Hoffer's best known book:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_True_Believer  

My wife spent her years from 12 to 19 in Naples. Ruined her for life  ; she is always trying to recapture the freedom and anarchy of Italy fused with the power of blossoming sexuality and opening up to life.

Italy has a lot going for it; where else could La Cicciolina become an elected official?

Signora Delfina, are you a lifer over there?

Ha

 

[astromeria]

But about enforcement and power trips, I just read someone complaining that when his HOA head (also head of local GOP) saw his Kerry bumper sticker, he started getting called on every tiny infraction--just him.

In my parents's previous community, an HOA resident ran for Town Council and got a seal of approval from the HOA, including unopposed address & meet&greet at an HOA meeting, and obvious encouragement to vote for him by the board. Well, this guy was elected and is one of the evil conservatives developer supporters who are paving over our town.

P.S. I have chickens on 2 sides, and cows (2 -- that must be the HOA limit ) and geese on the other. No strange odors (or even common odors that might be perceived as bad...ask astromeria if you don't believe me). Plus the neighbors give us free eggs!

Yup!

Speaking of Italy, just before we left Edisto yesterday--the gentleman of the other couple and I stole a few mmoents to talk investing and retirement behind our spouses' backs (they are bored silly by these conversations ). He told me he would rather not retire at Edisto, but retire to Europe instead, preferably Italy (where his mother was from and he's had several wonderful vacations) or Scotland (where he got his PhD in Business, specializing in Entrepreneurship). We're gonna try to convince our spouses to study Italian with us--he & I are both gung-ho. I probably won't reitre to Italy, but I'd love to spend a lot more time there.

 

[haha]

We're gonna try to convince our spouses to study Italian with us--he & I are both gung-ho. I probably won't reitre to Italy, but I'd love to spend a lot more time there.

Oh-oh. Thin edge of the wedge. 

Well, I don't know many well off men who could expect to get the kind of service we are talking about here. It may happen, but it seems that many women feel that they have better or more important or more intellectually challenging tasks to attend to.

Like Italian lessons, or modern dance, or spa treatments.

Ha

 

[TromboneAl]

How are these rules enforced -- lawsuit?

What are typical monthly dues?

 

[Cut-Throat]

How are these rules enforced -- lawsuit?

What are typical monthly dues?

We have fines that are levied. We don't need lawsuits, we have a management company that will start foreclosure procedures after 60 days of unpaid fines. We have done this, and the fines are usually paid rather quickly after that, in addition to attorney fees. Our monthly dues are $300, but this covers Lawn Mowing, Garbage collection, snow shoveling. Insurance. Exterior maint - Painting, Roofing, Landscaping, Driveways, sidewalks - Tree triming. We are currently save around half of the funds for future repairs.

It is meant for residents that want to travel, fly fish, golf etc. - instead of mowing the lawn and tending shrubs and are not interested in having neighbors that 'want to do their own thing' with their property that may create 'eyesores'. All of our properties are over $500K and the ones that have been put for sale have sold almost immediately. The last sale was 2 weeks ago at the asking price of $545K and was on the market for 4 days in a 'depressed' real estate market. There are plenty of people that want to live in this 'restrictive' development.

 

[farmerEd]

I'd live here:

before I'd live in one of these:

...but that just me.

 

[unclemick]

Live in both er ah sorta - at different times.

Actually the pre Katrina fish camp over Lake Ponchartrain was elemental like the first picture and post Katrina 'in da burbs' a lot like the second picture.

If I don't like it - well I guess I'll just move.

agile, mobile, and hostile - like Bear.

heh heh heh heh heh - in my case only one voter. In ER so no job to tie me down.

 

[REWahoo]

I'd live here:

before I'd live in one of these:

I chose to split the difference and live in "one of these", but it is located "here"...

 

[donheff]

Cut-throat: Where do you live? Is there a trout stream on those 40 acres? Send us the URL - inquiring minds...

 

[astromeria]

Looks real nice, C-T. You should provide directions--you know we're all heading up there with our RVs for the Coming Generational Storm, WW III, the new Great Depression/recession/deflation, the meteor/comet strike, or the giant tsunami from the Canary Islands quake. I'm ready--I already like kielbasa and venison, and I still have my down parka...and lots of hurricane supplies (canned chicken and dreid cranberries, anyone?).

 

[Nords]

As long as they don't cut down my Oaks, Maples and Birch trees.

Yikes-- what caliber of firearms are they hunting with?!?