Retirement real estate—what did you ask before buying?

T(snip)There's a reason that this "opportunity" has been publicly languishing for such a long time. That reason may only be fractionally due to housing prices and the Great Recession.
I don't know where you got the idea the property has been on the market for a long time. The trustee's sale was the end of July, and the bank took possession at the end of August. I first saw the listing two weeks ago. But it looks like it's a moot point anyway. I was just looking on the Assessor's website to see when the bank got title, and there's a new record of sale dated last Thursday. So it "languished" for all of about five weeks.

Oh well, at least now I have a sample that I can give to an agent for an idea of what I'm interested in.
 
I probably formed my mistaken impression here:
Originally Posted by kyounge1956
Then the house sat empty and eventually got really rundown. That's why it was torn down.
I see how what I wrote could be understood that way, but AFAIK, all that happened before the property went on the market. I think that the couple who lived there were renting it; when the wife died and the husband moved out, the owner of the house (an elderly widow) didn't find a new tenant. I think it said in the her late husband's obit that he had been a builder—maybe he was the one who managed and kept up their rental(s). If I had to, I'd guess the house needed work and the owner had neither the ability to do it herself, nor the money to pay someone else to do it; without a tenant, there'd be no money coming in to pay the mortgage, let alone renovate, so the house sat empty.

I spent yesterday afternoon with my parents. They are revising their wills. Looking at this property and thinking about wills is so sad. If that husband had appointed someone to manage their property, maybe his widow would still have rental income coming in, instead of losing the properties to foreclosure. At least she would have gotten something from selling the property. If what I saw on the assessor's website is the final price, this lot sold for less than the bank was asking, not even enough to pay the remaining balance on the loan. She won't get a penny from it.
 
Once again I need to draw on the collective wisdom of E-R. I'm now looking at one of the properties on the tax foreclosure list in Grays Harbor County WA. The property is in Aberdeen, about 1/4 acre with an existing house on it that is much larger than I am interested in owning. I'm trying to decide whether I want to bid on it, with the intention, if I am the high bidder, of dividing it into two parcels and selling the one with the existing house on it.

So far, the things I've thought of to ask are:

  • Is the property big enough to divide (at least twice the minimum square footage for the zoning)?
  • If divided, would utilities be available to the new lot? What would be required for utility access either to existing water and sewer, possibly natural gas, in the street in front of the property? Are there utilities in the paved alley at the rear of the property?
  • If subdivided, how salable would the house be on a smaller lot than it has now?
  • What are the fees and application process for subdividing a property?
  • The local newspaper had an announcement of death of someone with the same name as the owner of the property shown in the assessor's records. Is the house at current going through probate? If so, do the heirs have any right of redemption after the foreclosure auction?
What other potential problems do I need to find out about?

I already know it's unlikely I will be the high bidder (the property is worth quite a lot more than I have available to bid), so no need to point that out.
What I'm trying to figure out at this point is whether or not I should even try to buy it. What questions do I need to ask to find out whether my plan of subdividing is a workable one? If it isn't I'll skip the auction altogether.
 
I thought of one thing to add (that I didn't see mentioned). Many times when you rebuild, you can't rebuild in the same place exactly - you need to follow current codes and be farther from the curb or the side property lines, that sort of thing.

We tore down a garage and had to place the new one several feet further from the property line. It cost a lot more and we had to file plans, etc. This was 30+ years ago so I don't remember the details except it can happen.

I think the advice already given is excellent. :cool:
 
Whatever you do, it will be a more complicated path than is absolutely necessary.


But enjoy the process!

Ha
 
You need to talk to the governing authority that reviews and approves subdivisions in the area. Ask them your questions relating to the process, minimum lot standards, etc, and more importantly - would they grant approval for such a subdivision. These issues generally go to a public hearing where neighbors can voice their opinions on the proposal.

In addition, you'll have to do some due diligence on your own. Are there easements, flood plain, or other encumbrances that would prevent someone from building on the newly created lot? I would recommend hiring a surveyor or engineer to handle these issues.
 
I thought of one thing to add (that I didn't see mentioned). Many times when you rebuild, you can't rebuild in the same place exactly - you need to follow current codes and be farther from the curb or the side property lines, that sort of thing.

We tore down a garage and had to place the new one several feet further from the property line. It cost a lot more and we had to file plans, etc. This was 30+ years ago so I don't remember the details except it can happen.

I think the advice already given is excellent. :cool:

If I had gotten the property I was looking at when I started this thread, setbacks would definitely have come into the picture. The old garage is, I think, right on the property line.

I have added "check setbacks" to my list of questions to ask about this one.
 
You need to talk to the governing authority that reviews and approves subdivisions in the area. Ask them your questions relating to the process, minimum lot standards, etc, and more importantly - would they grant approval for such a subdivision. These issues generally go to a public hearing where neighbors can voice their opinions on the proposal.
I'm sure I wouldn't be able to get a definite yes or no answer about approval of the subdivision without actually submitting an application and jumping through all the hoops. I think if a public hearing is required, I'm out. I don't like the idea that I could meet all requirements of the land use code etc and still have some cantankerous neighbor derail my plans. I'm trying to remember whether I got any notice like that when the property down the street from here was subdivided. I don't think so, but I didn't have any objection, so maybe there was a hearing but I didn't go.

In addition, you'll have to do some due diligence on your own.
That's what this thread is for. I've never tried to buy a property at at the tax foreclosure auction, nor subdivided one, so I don't know what due diligence consists of.
Are there easements, flood plain, or other encumbrances that would prevent someone from building on the newly created lot? I would recommend hiring a surveyor or engineer to handle these issues.
I checked the property on floodsmart.gov, which says it is in an area of low-to-moderate flood risk. I also looked at the flood insurance rate map, which shows this as outside the floodplain, but the map is currently being updated and the new one won't be out for a year yet. Floodplain is the one of the first things I check when researching a property, because Hoquiam and Aberdeen are on the banks of the Chehalis River, and a significant fraction of the developed area of both cities is subject to flooding. I'm not sure how to check for easements. Maybe the county Recorder's office would have that info.
 
Sorry if I missed this in my quick scan of this thread, but beware of underground oil or gasoline storage tanks. Our older house had a boiler that had been converted from oil to natural gas, but the oil pipe was still there coming through the foundation. We eventually had the tank dug up and removed (with much difficulty) and it still had 800 gallons of fuel oil in it. The tank was almost rusted through. I mean it was a really close thing. If your fuel tank leaks and spoils an aquifer.... it's best that it not happen. I'm sure the likelihood of this (and your legal liability) varies greatly depending on location.
 
Sorry if I missed this in my quick scan of this thread, but beware of underground oil or gasoline storage tanks. Our older house had a boiler that had been converted from oil to natural gas, but the oil pipe was still there coming through the foundation. We eventually had the tank dug up and removed (with much difficulty) and it still had 800 gallons of fuel oil in it. The tank was almost rusted through. I mean it was a really close thing. If your fuel tank leaks and spoils an aquifer.... it's best that it not happen. I'm sure the likelihood of this (and your legal liability) varies greatly depending on location.

Thanks for that reminder! My previous house had an old oil tank in the back yard even though the furnace had been converted to natural gas back in the 1960's. I had the tank filled with foam before I sold the house in 1996. I wonder how I find out whether this house has an oil tank. It's certainly old enough...built in 1926. Maybe I can find out from the gas company when the main was put in. Who knows, maybe it still has oil heat. If it was there before the gas main, maybe it hasn't been changed over.
 
I'm sure I wouldn't be able to get a definite yes or no answer about approval of the subdivision without actually submitting an application and jumping through all the hoops.
True, but city/county staff will give you their gut feeling whether they think it will pass the board/council/plan commission or not. Real estate developers generally go over their proposals with staff early on, and will scrap or go on the proposal based on staff's recommendations.

I'm not sure how to check for easements. Maybe the county Recorder's office would have that info.
Maybe. Some counties have tract books that list all transactions by property description, making it easy to track down everything about a property. Others have grantor-grantee indexes that track by owner. Not as easy, because you have to know the owners through the course of time, and then research the owners to see if they granted easements. I would think someone at the county would help you get started. A title commitment would list easements, etc - but its tough getting one from a seller prior to closing.

Another thing to research is zoning. Find out the current zoning class of the property. There will be minimum lot sizes, frontages, building setbacks, etc listed in the zoning ordinance for each zoning class. Then determine if you can fit a decent sized house on your proposed new vacant lot given these standards. You also want to make sure that the new lot for the current house meets the standards. If you can't meet these standards, then you would have to petition to rezone the property to a zoning class that has lot area, frontage, setbacks, etc that would work.

And if you find out a public hearing is needed, then maybe you should contact the neighbors up front to see if they have any objections before you proceed.

Good luck!
 
True, but city/county staff will give you their gut feeling whether they think it will pass the board/council/plan commission or not. Real estate developers generally go over their proposals with staff early on, and will scrap or go on the proposal based on staff's recommendations.
I went on my fact-finding trip today. I didn't come right out and ask the staff at the building department, but they didn't throw up any obvious barriers. The property is definitely large enough to divide, it isn't in a floodplain or any other environmentally critical area, and there is a water main and a sewer in the paved alley at the back of the property, so the new lot could get utilities from back there. But it could be expensive—the sewer in back is shallow and the property slopes down away from the alley. A house that meets the minimum setback requirement might be lower than the sewer and require a pump. Alternatively, it might be possible to get gravity flow out to the sewer in the street in front, but it would be a very long side sewer—the lot is about 180 feet from back to front—and it would require work in a busy roadway with the sewer line on the far side of the street, so that would be expensive too.

Maybe. Some counties have tract books that list all transactions by property description, making it easy to track down everything about a property. Others have grantor-grantee indexes that track by owner. Not as easy, because you have to know the owners through the course of time, and then research the owners to see if they granted easements. I would think someone at the county would help you get started. A title commitment would list easements, etc - but its tough getting one from a seller prior to closing.
I didn't have time to make an in-depth search. I asked at the recorder's office and there was nothing in their computerized records, which go back to 1981. The house was built in 1926, so there could easily be something from before that date.

Another thing to research is zoning. Find out the current zoning class of the property. There will be minimum lot sizes, frontages, building setbacks, etc listed in the zoning ordinance for each zoning class. Then determine if you can fit a decent sized house on your proposed new vacant lot given these standards. You also want to make sure that the new lot for the current house meets the standards. If you can't meet these standards, then you would have to petition to rezone the property to a zoning class that has lot area, frontage, setbacks, etc that would work.

And if you find out a public hearing is needed, then maybe you should contact the neighbors up front to see if they have any objections before you proceed.

Good luck!

The property is zoned multiple residential. It looks probable that all setback requirements could be met for the existing house, but it would end up with a very small back yard, and I'm sure be less salable than it is with its current big yards on both sides. I didn't have time to ask a real-estate agent about that, whether it would make the existing house more or less impossible to sell. I think it's rented now, but I have no desire to be a landlady even though if I'm the successful bidder I will have gotten the house so cheaply I could pay a management company to deal with everything, and still make money. I always resented being a tenant, and I feel uncomfortable about making money by putting someone else in a position in which I felt taken-advantage-of.

As to the public input, I need to re-read the ordinance more carefully. Members of the public can appeal, but it doesn't sound like one cantankerous neighbor could veto the whole thing. I think they would have to convince the City Planner or someone that the proposed subdivision is a bad idea, or actually in violation of the code, or something like that.

But I am getting cold feet about the idea. It appears that the late owner owed a number of people money, and I got conflicting info about whether the owner's other creditors would still have a valid lien against the property after the tax auction. One office said yes, the other said no. I would have thought they would have to present their claims to his executor, but anyway it sounds possible that by buying the house I might be buying some of the late owner's debts. :eek:

The recorder told me about a website where you can look up court cases all over the state by name, and it looks like his estate is in probate right here in King County. The heirs may have right of redemption even after the auction, if they can show they didn't get the notices warning them of the foreclosure or there was some other fault. The same owner has property in the tax foreclosure list in another county, and when I looked online for info earlier in my researches I found what looked like a bank foreclosure against yet another property he owned. It may be that the heirs know about the foreclosure, but there's no money in the estate to pay the taxes.

It seems very possible this property will go into the auction. The person I talked to at the treasurer's office said last year there were about a hundred properties auctioned, of which 75 were actually sold—nobody bid on the others so now the county owns them. I will keep an eye on the website. Properties that are redeemed are taken off the web, so maybe the heirs will pay the taxes and take the decision out of my hands. I'm almost hoping they do because if this goes in the auction I'd be tempted to bid on it in spite of my doubts, and that might be a dumb thing to do.
 
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kyounge1956 - Sounds like you have the research pretty much done. And it doesn't look like subdividing/zoning is a huge problem. But I agree - the lien issue could be a problem. It's good that you are researching whether or not you would get clear title from a tax auction.
 
I will be retiring and moving next summer. Besides the obvious which has been described above, when I find a definite house I want to buy, I will go back and forth countless times, and talk to as many people and kids as I can to gather the feel of the neighborhood. Certainly you have to talk with your potential neighbors, and if they happen to be undesirable, there is no way you are going to be happy there.
I agree, it is "amazing" how strangers are so open to talk with you, so long as you present yourself as a decent person, friendly and willing to communicate. Even in "snob hill" it can be surprising how people can be so helpful and open to questions.
 
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