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Old 03-26-2016, 08:29 AM   #41
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Interesting thread. I believe the CICO is pretty much true, but that some people do burn calories faster than others due to factors such as medications, intestinal flora (the longer food stays in your intestine, the more nutrients get absorbed) and whether your body is in "starvation mode".


I don't count my daily calories in although I do log workout calories and those are close to 5,000 per week. I also read a lot of labels because, as noted earlier, a "serving" can be a joke. I calculate total calories in the package, then figure what % of the package I'm likely to eat in one sitting. Over the last few years I've changed what I eat to include far more fruits and vegetables, less refined sugar, less meat (vegetarian 2 days a week) and more nuts and legumes. It's worked well. I just bought 4 Russell Stover chocolate-covered, cream-filled Easter eggs (110 calories each) but will enjoy them over the next few weeks, not all at one sitting.
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Old 03-26-2016, 10:28 AM   #42
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Where I come from, a pound is two whole boxes of spaghetti. I cook one 8-ounce box for 3 people, and none of us is dieting. Never occurred to me to open a second box.

Not judging; just finding this interesting.

Amethyst
Interesting, every brand of pasta I can find is a pound of dry pasta. Except the lasagne noodles I'm cooking for a traditional Easter lasagna are only 13.5 ounces. How does that figure?

This is considered a overweight state, perhaps that's the cause?
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Old 03-26-2016, 03:00 PM   #43
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I think the main point lost in all of this discussion about we we 'do' is that if we eat real foods (not stuff made in plants, but food grown on farms) our bodies will automatically adjust our appetite to even things out in the long run.

I have photos of some of my ancestors in their 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's. Most are fairly thin, though some in their 60's and up seemed to had become bigger (but, that was after the time the gubmint told us to eat less fat and more processed carbs). Somehow they stayed thin most of their lives without counting calories or anything else.
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Old 03-26-2016, 11:41 PM   #44
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My guess would be that your ancestors lived a modestly different lifestyle. I suspect they weren't spending three hours a day commuting by auto, to and from their completely sedentary jobs, and then slumping in front of Iron Chef, The Biggest Loser, and Serious Eats at night. Your great-grandmother was probably at home cooking, rather than trapped in the office all day. I'm pretty darn certain that there weren't hyper-palatable fast foods on every street corner and eight aisles of hyper-palatable treats in every supermarket. Or any supermarkets.

Of course, it could also have been the government's anodyne, common-sense recommendations, too.
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Old 03-27-2016, 10:43 AM   #45
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My guess would be that your ancestors lived a modestly different lifestyle.
However, the actual "ancestors" that are troubling are those who lived in my lifetime. In the Fifties (for instance) everyone had 2nds... or as many helpings as they needed to be "done" eating. We had big bowls of cereal with milk and lots of sugar for breakfast. In fact, everyone was encouraged to eat more. There were no "fat" people, however... well okay maybe a few but they were nothing of the size that the average person is today. (I seem to recall a photo of the "Fat Man" in the 1800's Barnum & Bailey Circus who looked like today's "normal-sized" man.)

Something happened in the 60's and 70's that changed things -- perhaps food production, perhaps Government interference, perhaps something not yet thought of, perhaps all of the above. I suspect that this issue is so complex (even, more so, complicated) that the solution will turn out to be a long time in coming.

In the meantime, we each, as individuals, must find our own unique answer -- the "n=1 experiment" -- and not accept someone else's simple solution -- particularly from those with a financial incentive to get people excited.
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Old 03-27-2016, 01:14 PM   #46
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My guess would be that your ancestors lived a modestly different lifestyle. I suspect they weren't spending three hours a day commuting by auto, to and from their completely sedentary jobs, and then slumping in front of Iron Chef, The Biggest Loser, and Serious Eats at night. Your great-grandmother was probably at home cooking, rather than trapped in the office all day. I'm pretty darn certain that there weren't hyper-palatable fast foods on every street corner and eight aisles of hyper-palatable treats in every supermarket. Or any supermarkets.

Of course, it could also have been the government's anodyne, common-sense recommendations, too.
The amount of processed food in any modern grocery store is amazing. An early attempt to clean up our diet and eat more nutrient rich food was to eat the majority of your food from the perimeter of the grocery store. Why? Generally stores have produce, meats and dairy there. What else do we need for sustaining life? (OK, grains) That's only three aisles of how many? The Super Walmart I go to has two aisles of chips and another one for candy. Don't get me started on those "meals" made from fake chicken and other ingredients.

I belive the amount of cheap, nutritionally poor, calories is a big factor in why so many folks have weight issues. Even after weighing our food for months I don't feel comfortable winging it. People are naturally poor estimators of what they consume.
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Old 03-27-2016, 02:39 PM   #47
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We've found that after going back to unprocessed foods and going without the so-called hyper-palatable foods for a while, the processed foods are not palatable any more. You can actually taste the added crud.

We humans are not, thank goodness, pet animals who blindly eat any kind of fake nutriment that's been treated to smell good to them.

The hard part, for me, is that preparing whole, unprocessed, balanced meals is time-consuming and kind of tiring. I'm not a born cook or foodie; simply a woman who is determined to feed herself and others on healthy food. I can well see why many others do not bother.

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Old 03-27-2016, 02:45 PM   #48
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We've found that after going back to unprocessed foods and going without the so-called hyper-palatable foods for a while, the processed foods are not palatable any more. You can actually taste the added crud.
An excellent example of the kind of n=1 experimentation I was referring to.
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Old 03-27-2016, 03:25 PM   #49
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That doesn't mean it's good. The best working model could still be crap. Just because it's all we have doesn't mean it's good enough.
It's not 'all' we have, but it is the most accurate, imho. Unless you have another model that explains it better

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And the willfully ignorant person who wrote that page about No it's the calories. Is sniffing glue. Just because he cheats doesn't mean other people cheat. I know how to keep track of my diet better than any worst case diabetic I have ever seen, and have done so for years. His theory is wrong.
And yet has worked perfectly fine for me. I've lost 50 pounds just counting calories -- which is pretty amazing for a wrong theory...

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As has been stated, not all calories are the same or have the same effect on a person and every person is different.
This is true, but the difference is rather small.

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And it doesn't count to say "oh yeah! Well starve for 2 weeks and see how much weight you lose", 'cause that's just stupid and admitting defeat
It's a perfectly valid point. If no food = death, and a LOT of food = weight gain, then that proves CICO. If someone could continually eat more and more and never gain weight, well - that would prove it wrong. Fairly simple, really...
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Old 03-27-2016, 03:31 PM   #50
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It's that nagging "how" thing that keeps getting in the way.

No matter how much we think we are in control of what and how much we eat, that's more of an illusion than most of us think. Sure, in the short term, we can will ourselves to do about anything, but over the long-term, not so much. That's why diets that ignore satiety fail in the long run, and "move more eat less" is basically the same as saying "work-up an appetite", which is why it's not very helpful advice, imho.
Well satiety is certainly part of the equation. I make no claims to having some sort of extraordinary willpower. If I had such, I'd have never gained all the weight I did. I didn't hit 240+ eating rabbit food

But I did lose 50+ over the last couple of years. I switched to more nutrient-dense foods (vs calorie-dense). I dropped most meat and dairy. I laid off the sweets and drank less. But I did so in a way which avoided 95% of anything approaching a hunger pang. I've never felt starved or deprived. Just lighter. I also walked more. I keep intending to do more exercise but have never been able to get that habit going (yet). So I am moving more and eating less, taking my own advice. I can only say that it has worked wonderfully for both myself and my wife.
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Old 03-27-2016, 07:44 PM   #51
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CICO is like walking past a local restaurant that is packed with customers while the others on the block are nearly empty. You ask "Why is that one restaurant packed?" and a passerby answers " Because more people walked into it than have walked out of it." True, but it doesn't really tell you why so many people are walking into the restaurant. It does not explain the behavior of these people.

A more useful answer might be, "The owner is celebrating his 20th anniversary and has priced everything tonight using the prices he charged 20 years ago. And the beer is free." Now that is information that is helpful as it helps us understand the behavior that caused the restaurant to be packed with people while others are nearly empty.

That said, if CICO or vegetarianism, or low-carb or being a breatharian works for a person, then great! and I am happy for that person.
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Old 03-27-2016, 09:58 PM   #52
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CICO is like walking past a local restaurant that is packed with customers while the others on the block are nearly empty. You ask "Why is that one restaurant packed?" and a passerby answers " Because more people walked into it than have walked out of it." True, but it doesn't really tell you why so many people are walking into the restaurant. It does not explain the behavior of these people.

A more useful answer might be, "The owner is celebrating his 20th anniversary and has priced everything tonight using the prices he charged 20 years ago. And the beer is free." Now that is information that is helpful as it helps us understand the behavior that caused the restaurant to be packed with people while others are nearly empty.

That said, if CICO or vegetarianism, or low-carb or being a breatharian works for a person, then great! and I am happy for that person.
What you mean by "CICO" and what I mean are quite clearly two different things. CICO, unlike vegetarianism or low-carb, is not a specific diet. Reducing intake to a number of calories less than output works for everyone. There's no other way to lose weight. That doesn't mean that there aren't an infinite number of ways to make that reduction. You can certainly do it with a vegan diet as well as a HFLC diet, but if you don't produce the deficit, you won't lose weight no matter what the diet. Look at some of the low carb forums. People frequently ask why they can test positive for ketones and still not lose weight. While different dietary choices affect things like satiety, health markers, and compliance, no one has ever shown that anything but calorie deficit is the key to weight loss. Vegan, potato hack, Twinkie, paleo, ketogenic, Atkins, Weight Watchers, Zone, South Beach, Eat Right 4 Your Type, etc. all work when you produce a calorie deficit.

Anyway, on a completely unrelated matter, here is an actual government publication from 1980 with the dietary recommendations. Weirdly, they don't recommend candy, Snackwells, or fast food.

http://health.gov/dietaryguidelines/1980thin.pdf
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Old 03-28-2016, 11:08 AM   #53
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On my one, and so far only, cruise, it seemed obvious that some folks came just for the unlimited food. Anecdotally, of course, but many of the chubbiest, least mobile cruisers seemed to be the worst "offenders"...

I just can't eat 2-3 plates of food. I did, however, drink my share. :-P
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Old 03-28-2016, 11:55 AM   #54
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What you mean by "CICO" and what I mean are quite clearly two different things.
I wasn't really replying to your post, just adding some thoughts of my own to the discussion but....

+1 and Bingo!

The term CICO is often seen as a specific tactic to achieve weight control, when it is more like a strategy, IMHO.
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Old 03-28-2016, 12:57 PM   #55
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See this:

The Best Ways to Lose Weight After 50 – Next Avenue

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“The biggest mistake people over 50 make is believing it’s inevitable to gain weight as we age,” says Levy. “Implementing healthful strategies can result in better overall health and weight control.”

Endless gimmicks and empty promises of rapid weight loss tactics abound, however, but nearly all result in only temporary weight loss. They’re even less effective for those over 50. “For both sexes, you are going to have to fight harder to lose those extra pounds,” says Quebbemann.

Here’s how:

You’ll need to up your exercise routine or start one if you’re not currently working out, says Levy. “Not only for overall health, but to shed those excess pounds by increasing metabolism and muscle mass,” she notes.

You also need to simply eat less, says Quebbemann, who adds most people experience less of an appetite as they age, but not always. “For those people that do not experience a decrease in appetite, it is even more important to maintain your activity level.”
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Old 03-28-2016, 02:35 PM   #56
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You also need to simply eat less, says Quebbemann, who adds most people experience less of an appetite as they age, but not always. “For those people that do not experience a decrease in appetite, it is even more important to maintain your activity level.”
I can't believe people are still trying to peddle this junk science.

Surely there is a pill we can take, right?!
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Old 03-28-2016, 03:12 PM   #57
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I can't believe people are still trying to peddle this junk science.



Surely there is a pill we can take, right?!

Yeah, it's called Fen-phen.

Oh, wait, never mind. ;-)
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Old 03-28-2016, 04:35 PM   #58
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I have a sneaking suspicion (not backed by science) that different people "absorb" different percentages of the calories they consume.
I have to agree with this. The nutrients in food are going to be available for absorption in your digestive system differently at different times and depend on what else is going on with your biology.

I'll give a simple example that folks who have had colonoscopies may be able to relate to:

If you eat a big meal of 5 pizzas (not slices, but the whole pizzas) and then wash them down with a gallon of liquid oral laxative, then you will not make productive use of those pizza calories. However, calories out still happens.
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Old 03-28-2016, 05:05 PM   #59
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I am a little worried about what effect the colonoscopy prep "cleansing" has on one's gut flora. It can't be good for them. Wouldn't it be awful if new, obesity-friendly flora decided to take up residence in one's newly clean digestive tract?

Then again, maybe it's like cleaning out the septic tank: the same "flora" eventually return to the familiar "habitat."
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I have to agree with this. The nutrients in food are going to be available for absorption in your digestive system differently at different times and depend on what else is going on with your biology.

I'll give a simple example that folks who have had colonoscopies may be able to relate to:
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Old 03-28-2016, 05:39 PM   #60
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I am a little worried about what effect the colonoscopy prep "cleansing" has on one's gut flora. It can't be good for them. Wouldn't it be awful if new, obesity-friendly flora decided to take up residence in one's newly clean digestive tract?
My (less than perfect) understanding is that your gut flora's permanent home is as a bacterial film in the mucus lining your small and large intestines. The colonoscopy cleansing doesn't really affect that, but rather flushes out the larger "stuff" (undigested food and bacteria all mixed together) that is normally transiting through.
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