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Old 08-08-2011, 08:38 PM   #61
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Hi Jonnie36. Thanks for sharing your experience. This thread has been an interesting read. My much younger little sister's best friend from high shcool plans on doing ROTC and just got a huge arm tattoo. I immediatley thought of this thread and cautioned her that she may be giving up her dream for a tattoo (and one I think is very ugly btw lol).
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Old 08-08-2011, 08:57 PM   #62
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He'd have to volunteer for submarine service, so if he doesn't want it then it won't happen. Submariners do not want non-volunteers, and volunteers who change their minds are quickly persuaded to leave.
Nords, last I checked the Aviators were all volunteers also. Least wise in my time.
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Old 08-08-2011, 11:13 PM   #63
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My niece's son is a Marine and he has a bunch of tattoos. I don't know if he had them before he joined the military or not. He seemed to be able to function fine with his tattoos, the year he spent in Afghanistan. Just saying. It does sound like your grandson needs to lose his attitude though and maybe he will once he gets into a different type of atmosphere.

I also have to admit to be late to the maturing game. I was 25 when I had my son and he caused me to grown up in a hurry!
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Old 08-09-2011, 06:01 AM   #64
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I also was also a late bloomer. My environment at home was not the best. Looking back...joining the military was the best thing I could have ever done. Once out on my own, and away from a dysfunctional environment my mind cleared and I became in control of my destiny. That was eons ago. I can thank those early military years for giving me my start in life and an awakening. Looking forward, I will be eligible to retire in just a little over 2 years...in my mid 50s. I think most young people need something like that in their early lives to wake them up on the realities of life and becoming independent.

Johnnie...It's the best thing your grandson could do. I see so many of my friend's kids just hanging around wasting time and their lives. He will become a changed man and someone to be proud of.
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Old 08-09-2011, 09:11 AM   #65
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Johnnie, I'm not sure exactly how to say this, but much of my sympathy and concern bypasses Grandson #1 and lands squarely on Grandson #2. He has shared, knowing the probable outcome, a desperately personal description of who he "really" is with the family. From this, he's been blamed for the #1s violent outbursts? And it would seem from your comments that he's been devalued by sharing this information as well.

He's still the same person, the same baby you watched grow up, the very same person you've always loved. This is who he has been the whole time, but for the first time, you know something that he's kept hidden, however well. Please spare some thoughts for him, too, in the emotional upheaval that the family is experiencing.

I know that's not what you wrote about, and it is probably my most controversial threadjack ever, but I just yesterday had a friend I've known since middle school tell me she's gay, even though she's lived a hetero life, including marriage and kids, but realized she's always been this way and refused to acknowledge it until after her husband left her. I feel very sorry for her, thinking of how it must be to know you are different, to know that people, even family members, will ostracize or become angry with you, about something you are powerless to change.

Peace to you and your family.
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Old 08-09-2011, 09:52 AM   #66
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I never really understood the policy on tattoos. Sure, I understood the ban on extremist/sexist, etc ones. But tattoos are just everywhere now. I'd say a good portion of the recruits I worked with had them.
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Old 08-09-2011, 12:36 PM   #67
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I think any visible tattoos (and a giant eagle across one's chest could be visible through a white shirt) constitute a personal statement vs. the overall anonymity of people in uniform, especially for a recruit. Inadvertantly calling attention to oneself via tattoos in a battle situation might be a problem for the individual and the unit?

I like military tattoos, personally:

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Old 08-09-2011, 01:00 PM   #68
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Nords, last I checked the Aviators were all volunteers also. Least wise in my time.
... and they probably still all are volunteers, but there seemed to be some concern that a recruit could end up in the submarine service if they applied for nuclear training.

My point was that someone entering the Navy can't be ordered to submarine service unless they volunteer for it. I wasn't attempting to imply anything about aviators.

Someone entering the Navy on a minimal obligation with no rating preference and little/no schools would have a high probability of ending up on an amphibious ship or an aircraft carrier whether they thought it was a good idea or not.

Frankly it sounds as though the Navy is more interested in recruits who have a preference and some initiative, even though it may turn out to be different from what they wanted.

Anyone who thinks someone should be pointed toward the military to "grow up and straighten out" (no matter how good it turned out) should be appointed that person's military supervisor for the duration of their enlistment!
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Old 08-09-2011, 02:48 PM   #69
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Sounds like boot camp itself would be good for the kid. What the grandson needs is a good old-fashioned kick in the ass.

My experience was that of a USMC drill instructor and a tough Navy CPO. Either one can certainly deliver. Hopefully the grandson here gets what he needs.

If he doesn't change his attitude, he'll have a very tough time wherever he goes.
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Old 08-09-2011, 08:42 PM   #70
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Johnnie, I'm not sure exactly how to say this, but much of my sympathy and concern bypasses Grandson #1 and lands squarely on Grandson #2. He has shared, knowing the probable outcome, a desperately personal description of who he "really" is with the family. From this, he's been blamed for the #1s violent outbursts? And it would seem from your comments that he's been devalued by sharing this information as well.

He's still the same person, the same baby you watched grow up, the very same person you've always loved. This is who he has been the whole time, but for the first time, you know something that he's kept hidden, however well. Please spare some thoughts for him, too, in the emotional upheaval that the family is experiencing.

I know that's not what you wrote about, and it is probably my most controversial threadjack ever, but I just yesterday had a friend I've known since middle school tell me she's gay, even though she's lived a hetero life, including marriage and kids, but realized she's always been this way and refused to acknowledge it until after her husband left her. I feel very sorry for her, thinking of how it must be to know you are different, to know that people, even family members, will ostracize or become angry with you, about something you are powerless to change.

Peace to you and your family.
Sarah, a lot of this will come to a head when grandson #2 returns from Chicago on Aug 12th. Their family is planning a family get-together shortly after. I'm anxious to see how everyone gets along. I'll let you know.
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Old 08-09-2011, 09:36 PM   #71
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... and they probably still all are volunteers, but there seemed to be some concern that a recruit could end up in the submarine service if they applied for nuclear training.

My point was that someone entering the Navy can't be ordered to submarine service unless they volunteer for it. I wasn't attempting to imply anything about aviators.

Someone entering the Navy on a minimal obligation with no rating preference and little/no schools would have a high probability of ending up on an amphibious ship or an aircraft carrier whether they thought it was a good idea or not.

Frankly it sounds as though the Navy is more interested in recruits who have a preference and some initiative, even though it may turn out to be different from what they wanted.

Anyone who thinks someone should be pointed toward the military to "grow up and straighten out" (no matter how good it turned out) should be appointed that person's military supervisor for the duration of their enlistment!
I disagree with you on that. You are not old enough to have been drafted. What about those?? You know who got drafted? The people who could not afford college or those who did not make good grades while in college. I am quite sure those who served in Viet Nam really did not want to go. I am also sure many needed to grow up and I can bet you they did real fast when they got there.
It sure made a different person out of me. I knew if I messed up what would happen. When at home that rule did not apply. I see no reason this person should not be able to serve with the tattoo. Whats the big deal anyway. Tom
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Old 08-09-2011, 09:45 PM   #72
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I talked to grandson #1 last night and asked him about his brother. His initial reaction was one of disgust and that's what triggered the fight. #1 tells me the issue is over and he wants to move on. #2 has been gone all summer working for a company in Chicago installing security systems. He is due home Aug 12. Might be an interesting homecoming. Sure, I will always love grandson #2 but I don't have to agree with his ways or be around him if he's with a "friend".
I agree with Sarah on this . It's tough on grandson # 2 also . Realizing you are different and telling people has to be extremely tough . He's still the child you loved no matter his life style . My son was gay and yes it was a heartbreak but he was still the same person before and after the announcement . I did accept it and his friend.I would rather have a gay son than a druggie son or one of the other horrors that can happen to our children.
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Old 08-09-2011, 10:04 PM   #73
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I agree with Sarah on this . It's tough on grandson # 2 also . Realizing you are different and telling people has to be extremely tough . He's still the child you loved no matter his life style . My son was gay and yes it was a heartbreak but he was still the same person before and after the announcement . I did accept it and his friend.I would rather have a gay son than a druggie son or one of the other horrors that can happen to our children.
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Old 08-09-2011, 11:43 PM   #74
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I agree with Sarah on this . It's tough on grandson # 2 also . Realizing you are different and telling people has to be extremely tough . He's still the child you loved no matter his life style . My son was gay and yes it was a heartbreak but he was still the same person before and after the announcement . I did accept it and his friend.I would rather have a gay son than a druggie son or one of the other horrors that can happen to our children.
Moe, you have had more than the usual number of growth opportunites in your life. Congratulations on making it through so very well.

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Old 08-10-2011, 12:10 AM   #75
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Sure, I will always love grandson #2 but I don't have to agree with his ways or be around him if he's with a "friend".
So if he finds someone who makes him happy and who he wants to share his life with you would choose not to be around him when he was with that person?
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Old 08-10-2011, 04:35 AM   #76
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I agree with Sarah on this . It's tough on grandson # 2 also . Realizing you are different and telling people has to be extremely tough . He's still the child you loved no matter his life style . My son was gay and yes it was a heartbreak but he was still the same person before and after the announcement . I did accept it and his friend.I would rather have a gay son than a druggie son or one of the other horrors that can happen to our children.
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Old 08-10-2011, 07:16 AM   #77
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I disagree with you on that. You are not old enough to have been drafted. What about those?? You know who got drafted? The people who could not afford college or those who did not make good grades while in college. I am quite sure those who served in Viet Nam really did not want to go.
Amen (been there, done that )...
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Old 08-10-2011, 03:41 PM   #78
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I disagree with you on that. You are not old enough to have been drafted. What about those?? You know who got drafted? The people who could not afford college or those who did not make good grades while in college. I am quite sure those who served in Viet Nam really did not want to go. I am also sure many needed to grow up and I can bet you they did real fast when they got there.
It sure made a different person out of me. I knew if I messed up what would happen. When at home that rule did not apply. I see no reason this person should not be able to serve with the tattoo. Whats the big deal anyway. Tom
You don't have to agree or disagree with me-- those are just the rules under which today's Navy would decide how to assign a recruit to duty. I think the rules are designed to help people who don't know what they want to do in the military get a good solid nudge into figuring out their priorities & goals.

I personally think you're oversimplifying your Vietnam example, but you're right-- I'm too young to know more than what I've learned from the history books, my college military instructors (which included a surprising number of POWs), and a few shipmates. I'll let you and the rest of this board's Vietnam vets sort that one out to your satisfaction.

I've had to work for, work with, and supervise quite a few of those "needed to grow up" servicemembers. The beauty of an all-volunteer force is that you don't have to put up with that crap anymore. Sure, the military can make adults out of children, but why should that be the military's mission? Imagine if high-school graduates could say "I don't know what I want to do, but life sucks and I'm gonna join the police/firefighters to help me grow up and straighten out".

I'd rather serve with people who are at least as motivated as I am.

Personally I don't care about the tattoo issue either, but the pendulum is swinging all the way over on this one and it'll need a few years to settle down. The military will keep on coming up with little "gotchas" like this as long as they keep making quota with qualified recruits... recruits who actually want to be in the military and are not just hoping to run away from the rest of their personal problems.
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Old 08-10-2011, 04:29 PM   #79
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Nords, you got that right (i.e. the military wants the highest possible recruits it can get as long as they make quota). I was a Navy Recruiter for Nuclear candidates (maybe I recruited you if you lived in Wis/Mich LOL) in the 80's. Standards were very high then (I had a student with a 3.9 GPA disqualified as he had some bad acne on his back!!!). I asked the Dr, WTF - "Well, if the reactor spewed out water and it got in his acne pockets, he would be in a bad situation." I guess so!!! And how many times has that happened I asked?? "Well, never as far as I know" Geeez, I've seen lots of crap but that was the worst.

If your nephew or grandson, gets a deal to become something in the Navy, in this period of time he should RUN for it and BEG to get in. Otherwise, good luck with the frying machine at McDonalds. . . .
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Old 08-10-2011, 07:49 PM   #80
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... and they probably still all are volunteers, but there seemed to be some concern that a recruit could end up in the submarine service if they applied for nuclear training.

My point was that someone entering the Navy can't be ordered to submarine service unless they volunteer for it. I wasn't attempting to imply anything about aviators.

Someone entering the Navy on a minimal obligation with no rating preference and little/no schools would have a high probability of ending up on an amphibious ship or an aircraft carrier whether they thought it was a good idea or not.

Frankly it sounds as though the Navy is more interested in recruits who have a preference and some initiative, even though it may turn out to be different from what they wanted.

Anyone who thinks someone should be pointed toward the military to "grow up and straighten out" (no matter how good it turned out) should be appointed that person's military supervisor for the duration of their enlistment!
Say what you want Nords, but the Marines made a man our of my son. He was so gung-ho that he finished high school early in order to enlist. He was at MCRD San Diego when his buddies were walking across the stage to get their high school diplomas. He actually "grew up" in the Marines. Came out bigger and stronger than I could have imagined and really cared about how he presented himself, grooming, dressing, manners, etc. We are so very proud of him. That was 20 years ago.

This is in effect what I am hoping for my grandson #1. If it works for him like it did for my son, all the trials and tribulations will have been worth it.
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