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Old 03-03-2008, 10:42 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny View Post
Did you really want to go another 12 rounds with me and end up looking like a blowhard...as usual?

I thought this stuff wasnt "fun" for you any more...
Well, I was going to limit it to just warning prgsdw that he was wasting his time - CFB will be 'right' no matter what...

But as usual, you don't answer the question, and you throw a bunch of chaff out there. So:

Vulnerabilities or exploits? (same question to Marquette)? Big difference.

-ERD50
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Old 03-03-2008, 10:49 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Vulnerabilities or exploits? (same question to Marquette)? Big difference.

-ERD50
A quick Google search indicates that it has vulnerabilities and that some vulnerabilities have been exploited. So, yes, both.

edit: and sorry, I didn't realize I was stepping into a "mine's bigger" discussion.
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Old 03-03-2008, 10:51 PM   #43
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Def Vulnerability: In computer security, the term vulnerability is applied to a weakness in a system which allows an attacker to violate the integrity of that system. Vulnerabilities may result from weak passwords, software bugs, a computer virus, a script code injection, a SQL injection, a Blue Pill, or malware. A vulnerability may exist only in theory, or may have a known instance of an exploit.

Def Exploit: An exploit (from the same word in the French language, meaning "achievement", or "accomplishment") is a piece of software, a chunk of data, or sequence of commands that take advantage of a bug, glitch or vulnerability in order to cause unintended or unanticipated behavior to occur on computer software, hardware, or something electronic (usually computerized). This frequently includes such things as gaining control of a computer system or allowing privilege escalation or a denial of service attack.

Both known vulnerabilities and exploits crafted to take advantage of those exploits have been well published for OSX. Several articles written by well respected publications have tabulated higher numbers of problem areas, particularly high severity ones, in OSX vs windows.

And Apple keeps patching them, so obviously they were there.

You paid too much for something and now you're both defending your poor choice and trying to get some attention to fill your sorry, depressing life, such as it is.

You still wanna go another ten rounds wandering around in areas where you have no experience or actual knowledge, but think you might? Or are you close to retreating to your "I was just trying to learn something" or "I was just trying to complete the discussion" thing after you get beaten into a corner?

*DING*
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Old 03-03-2008, 11:42 PM   #44
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Microsoft's 'Vista Capable' pitch was wrong and bad for customers. So is Apple's implementation of a music distribution that requires their own products to play. MS/Apple are both focused on their bottom lines and don't pay enough attention to their customers. (That's why Apple doesn't sell a high performance $800 desktop system). When using a computer, I don't really care what OS it runs. I can figure out what I need to do using any modern OS. And they seem to be converging, borrowing features that the other system does better.

I'm running Windows XP now because I have some software that's designed to run on it and use some decent hardware that was relatively inexpensive. I own Apple stock because the brand loyalty is already at cult status and is still growing, they are able to sustain very high margins while keeping their customers happy, they have great marketing, and the press coverage is outstanding.
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Old 03-03-2008, 11:45 PM   #45
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need to stop thinking about windows 98
I give up. Yes, I guess DLLs just disappeared on 1/1/99. THEY DIDN'T. XP has DLLs.. AND (naturally) DLL conflicts. As far as Vista is concerned, I don't know. I don't WANT to know. [Ok, I don't want to remain ignorant.. Gee, what a surprise.. like zombies they still haunt the living.. Google "vista dlls" see what you get: "Windows Vista DLL patching.." "Vista Dll manifests", "Vista: DLL register fails during install" and those are 1/2 of the first six entries.] I hear DH cursing DLLs on a continual basis. They're always missing! You can download them, but they won't be recognized! You may have to rewrite them yourself!

CFB, think of every crappy company that put out a bad product and gave you bad service; I know you've got a passle of 'em. Now tell me why you should be LOYAL to that crappy company. Why should you be loyal to a company that hates it customers and --to get back to the OP-- can only think of how to screw them harder by misleading them in order to push trash that more likely than not won't work as advertised? Because they have a guaranteed customer base of people who are too fearful to throw them over? Coming late in the game to a middling level of competency, even if it costs a few bucks less, doesn't cut it with me. There's more than one PC person who is dissatisfied here even with the (pseudo OSX clone) Vista; it's not just me and ERD.

What I want out of a computer is what I want out of the banking system: Trust. That it will work when I turn it on. That I can get my main job done and that it will be secure without my having to think about it. What HFWR spent in buying Vista and re-installing XP is just fantasy "free" time and money, right? It has no impact on the real world whatsoever. If it works out it goes on the positive side of the balance sheet, but any pain is invisible and sloughed off on someone else? A write-off/write-down?

Marquette: this is CFB's "hairball" and you won't win. Real world experience pales before arcane possibilities.

Compare: DH spends several phone calls and more than an hour in the inconclusive attempt, a few days ago, to figure out what will happen to his Visual Studio and OS licenses seeing that he has to reformat the machine due to its bad behavior. I would not have to make those calls, stay on hold, or wait for them to call me back. I would wipe the machine, take my OSX disk -strangely that actually COMES WITH the computer-- and install it, and install it and install it.. however many times necessary. [It hasn't BEEN necessary for many many years, not since the last power surge at the office.] I guess that is the benefit of an inferior and execrable OS that no one wants. But it's not my business on the line, it's his, unfortunately, so he can't risk M$ giving him a hard time about OS re-installs or getting abruptly cut off from Visual Studio.

Cost of not staying on hell-hold? Priceless.
Value of continuous work time? Whatever your project and billing rate tell you.

I don't care about patches if the patches work. Since I never perceived a problem and there was no damage, who cares? A 'problem area' is different from a real incursion, which trusting Windows users have suffered on a regular basis. I know CFB wants to conflate the two; what I don't know is why.

---
JB, I really never got into the music distribution aspect. When I explored the quality of MP3s I wasn't impressed. Anyway I see that as a separate animal.. and there's no harm in you avoiding iTunes and just buying CDs as you normally would, or choosing another digital music service. There's also a big difference between a restriction that is known, and outright deceptive advertising.
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Old 03-03-2008, 11:45 PM   #46
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Mac vs PC?

On your marks, get set, ......

Click for editorial comment - can we get back on topic now
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Old 03-03-2008, 11:45 PM   #47
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Hey, guys? Can I interrupt for an on-topic second here? Guys?

Listen, I'm sorry I brought up the Mac comment. I thought that was old news and it was really just intended to be an old Berkun-style joke about software-development projects. I won't make that mistake again.

Truth is, I don't really give a sh care which OS I use because I don't touch any of them until at least SP1. I was perfectly happy with Win95 until the PCs were only shipping with XP. I bought Apple stock in anticipation of the release of OS X and ditched it when we'd made our 50%-- before the post-release bug reports started rolling in. I tinker with either one of them because spouse needs one for her Navy work and kid prefers another for school and I'm happily maintaining my multilingual skills. I don't pay retail, either, so I'm not price-sensitive.

As for you death-before-dishonor types arguing over which is bigger better-- how many of you can get a Mac and a PC to coexist peacefully on the same computer desk, hmm?

I posted this Intel-Microsoft thread to hear from the former Intel employees I know and to see if there are any other Microsoft or Intel alumni here. Youse guys wanna argue Mac vs PC, take it somewhere else.
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Old 03-04-2008, 12:27 AM   #48
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Sorry Janet & Nords!
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Old 03-04-2008, 01:12 AM   #49
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Look, I run an wintel shop at home, but my parents run Macs. My windows boxes need to be rebuilt for performance every 3-5 years (we have a flow down process in the house) where the Mac I used for high school term papers is still running just fine on Mom's desk (I'm 33 now). In addition, my good friends run a Mac house, and fully utilize the features. Every peripheral, streaming to their plasma t.v. music, iphone, etc. and it all just "worked" right out of the box. I'm very impressed with the quality, the look, and the feel of all the Apple goodies. I have the top of the line Blackberry and it looks almost clunky when he brings his iphone over.

My (small) beef with apple is it seems to channel me on one path, that I'm not really allowed or at least not encouraged to look under the hood or do much tweaking. I'm also a gamer and looking at the Mac game section reminds me of the Betamax section of the video rental store.

Apple has embraced their appliance/furniture/accessory identity, and I think that's a good thing. My buddy has a Mac that's just a slightly thicker 24 inch flat panel monitor. It's amazing to behold. Apple stuff is a status symbol, it's a fashion statement, and the stuff actually looks good in your home right out of the box. I don't think it's fair to attempt to compare wintel and mac, they've carved out different spaces.

FYI, I've been running Vista for almost a year now and had exactly two hits with my virus scanner....medium risk cookies. Tip for lowering your virus count, when windows says, "Hakkerwarezpornbot would like to install Active X control, would you like to continue?" don't click yes.
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Old 03-04-2008, 01:18 AM   #50
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Tip for lowering your virus count, when windows says, "Hakkerwarezpornbot would like to install Active X control, would you like to continue?" don't click yes.
How much is your employer paying you for your executive network-security position?!?

In case you happen to have access to my IP address, I'm just kidding...
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Old 03-04-2008, 09:42 AM   #51
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Marquette: this is CFB's "hairball" and you won't win. Real world experience pales before arcane possibilities.
Sorry, just one more comment. I've been giving you my real-world experiences. Like I've stated, I've never had downtime with any machine like your husband has. Then again, my computer is vital to my livelihood so I take the necessary steps to make sure I stay gainfully busy.

One recommendation, but I'm not sure how good the product is since Norton bought them, might be to invest in a hard-drive imaging program like Ghost. Your husband can freshly install everything, make an image, and then restore back to that image at any point. I'm sure he's heard of it, but, if not, he might find it to be an excellent time-saver.
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Old 03-04-2008, 09:53 AM   #52
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Ok, back to the OP.

I'd like to find out more about the claims in the class action. I've already posted one article from "back in the day" wrt what Vista Capable meant. Here's another article from Ars Technica:

The meaning of "Vista Capable": good, not great

Quote:
Hence, it's no coincidence that Vista Capable means something less than "Vista ideal." To get the Vista Capable sticker, a computer needs only to be able to sufficiently run Windows Vista's core features, not everything that the OS can do in all versions. In practical terms, this means that Vista Capable embraces systems lacking all of the graphical horsepower to run the Aero Glass interface. For some, this is a confusing set of affairs. I think it's confusing, in part, because Microsoft has touted a new user interface that is not actually present in all versions of its new OS.
Al already pointed out that Microsoft kind of screwed up in having so many versions of the same core product available. Between the multitide of skus, a delayed ship date, and generally poor training at the retail stores, I can just imagine the confusion when trying to buy a new computer touted as 'Vista Capable'. I have no doubt that any Vista Capable machine would be able to run the core of Vista Home Basic. However, that doesn't mean that extended features would work well and, of course, the Aero desktop isn't even part of the Home Basic sku.
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Old 03-04-2008, 10:36 AM   #53
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My last 2c. Ladelfina, I suspect your husbands DLL problems are related to his work with VB. IIRC some VB programs require different versions of the run-time DLL's that are compatible with the version of VB they were compiled with. That IS a pain in the butt but as far as I know its the only "DLL problem" thats been anywhere near windows in a very long time, its related to an archaic language product, and its got nothing to do with windows.

When Windows did have problems with conflicting DLL versions, it had more to do with people installing too many different software products. And I think XP solved about 99.9% of those problems.

OSX has its own version of "dlls" and you can get into some interesting problems with those too. Its just that most mac users dont install that much software on the machine.

So it seems that your opinion is based primarily on second hand anecdotal evidence from old software products installed on 3rd tier hardware platforms. No wonder you're sour on the subject. My Apple experience is first hand from using current platforms starting with the IIe and progressing through the iMac and macbook. I liked them. But I didnt think I got my moneys worth.

As far as this being a "hairball"...you bet...I hate paying extra and not getting a commensurate value in return, and I have to object to people who claim an operating system is impervious to being hacked. Its just not so. If you want to say "I know its all cachet and looks and impressing other people with my good taste, so I paid extra"...well...I get that! But dont make up attributes to try to justify something when they just arent true.

I dont think I'd go with vista basic over windows XP. Theres nothing there that would make it worth the extra footprint and lack of time in the market. Vista Premium has some niceties mostly in system security and protection, but frankly Aero just doesnt tickle me. I played with flip3d for 3 minutes, oohed and ahhed over the transparencies and then 5 minutes later didnt even notice any of it. Its like high def tv. You notice at first, then you really dont.

Funny part is they put some stuff in vista ultimate that I think oughta be in Basic. Like system backup capabilities. Nutty. Definitely bad stratification.
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Old 03-04-2008, 11:43 AM   #54
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reason for VB is that he probably programs for MS Excel or MS Access that his clients use

where i work we have a ton of MS Access apps. it's a MS Access file that's not only a database, but it's own standalone small application. we are getting rid of them and our devs are writing java and .NET apps to replace them. but our company is larger than a small CPA office and we have our own SQL 2005 servers for the backend to host the databases
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Old 03-04-2008, 05:28 PM   #55
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One recommendation, but I'm not sure how good the product is since Norton bought them, might be to invest in a hard-drive imaging program like Ghost. Your husband can freshly install everything, make an image, and then restore back to that image at any point. I'm sure he's heard of it, but, if not, he might find it to be an excellent time-saver.

One more recommendation for someone that needs to stay on the edge with software installs. Your husband should really consider something like Microsoft Virtual PC or some other virtualization solution. He can create a virtual image to do the messier stuff on and, if it gets corrupted, just restore back a previous version of the image. A semi-beefy system will handle that work fairly well and it might feel rather seamless. One other advantages if he needs to work with multiple products is that he can have a common base on his pc and then a delta in each image with the required tools.

I do understand what a pain it can be when you have unruly software on your hands.
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