How Should Americans' Health Care be Paid For?

How Should Americans' Health Care be Paid For?

  • Keep the status quo

    Votes: 4 2.7%
  • The Health Care Act, or something similar

    Votes: 4 2.7%
  • Individual responsibility with minimal, if any, government involvement

    Votes: 19 12.9%
  • A tax-funded, comprehensive government health plan

    Votes: 54 36.7%
  • A government plan for catastrophic illness/injury, plus optional supplemental coverage

    Votes: 22 15.0%
  • Hybrid—a government plan pays a set amount; the remainder is paid by supplemental coverage or out of

    Votes: 14 9.5%
  • Underwritten policies for catastrophic coverage + national risk pool + HSA + tort reform

    Votes: 22 15.0%
  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 8 5.4%

  • Total voters
    147
So you'd be in favor of some sort of committee that was empowered to deny life-extending care to individuals under some conditions. What criteria would you like to see in place to begin this process? Perhaps we can make that slope less slippery.

I would be in favor of any entity that would allow you to feel comfortable with the feedback that the cost of your care would exceed the value to the cultural greater good.

I would agree with any criteria that would allow individuals to view themselves as part of a larger, more important picture rather than an individuals with overriding demands.

Coming to terms with our own mortality is daunting. What has helped me to gain a perspective for myself is the the concept of value: how much is the attempt to deny/delay my nature worth? Death is inevitable. I had better be prepared to offer something really big in return in order for the expense to be worth it.

My very strong preference is to be much more aggressive in dealing with pain. In my very humble opinion.....pain is the enemy....not death. Hospice programs "get" that....and with supportive medical directors, try and allow pain to abate along enough for individuals to truly live for whatever time they may have.

In my opinion....after over 30 years as a registered nurse working in every layer of health care.....the American system is not just broken. It is corrupt. Everyone means well.....but the simple concept of our nature being what it is has been lost...and we have become a society that insists that attempting to live forever is our right.
 
As many posters have said, an individual should be able to pay for his own treatment, no matter how much it costs. On the other hand, if the public is to pay for it, then we should realize that health care is a limited resource, just like anything else, and we will have to look into its use for maximum benefits to our society.

About humane treatment, I think few would mind paying for a surgery to save even a homeless person from dieing of a ruptured appendix. Such an operation, I believe, is now routine and has a good chance of success.

On the other hand, an expensive cancer treatment with, say 50% chance of success, would be better used on a 30-yr old than an 80-yr old. Some might say that, but, but, but there might be a chance the 80-yr old can get to live to 82 with the treatment. True, but we still have to draw the line somewhere. It is for the survival of society that we have to do that. Again, an individual should be allowed to expend all his personal assets to pursue whatever treatment he desires.

I just hope that if and when I face the condition as described by a nurse in this dire situation (that I posted the link in an earlier post) that my family would make the right decision and let me die with as little pain and with as much dignity as possible.

Her “large tumor” was so grotesque it is difficult to describe. She had visible growths resembling giant warts extending in a solid mass from her backside, around one hip, and covering one side of her belly from her navel to her groin. There were blackened, necrotic (dead) areas scattered throughout and other sections festered, oozed and bled. The smell was horrific... Although she had been prescribed oral pain medications, rolling and cleaning her still was physically agonizing for her... An earlier scan of her chest and abdomen had shown widespread metastatic disease in her lungs and tumor growth in her groin that pressed on a main artery. She had intractable anemia that transfusions relieved but would not cure.

Doctors and nurses generally know when a patient's condition is hopeless. We have made many medical advances, but there is a limit to what humans can do. We do not live forever! And in the case described above, I am not a doctor but it appears to me the patient could only be healed by God appearing by her bedside.
 
From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs. :whistle:

If you think health care in the US is expensive now, wait until it's free...:(

I think we already have enough bumper stickers, thanks.


And if I were in a mental state to be able to make the decision, I would absolutely decide to stop seeking medical treatment based on cost. At some point, I would not want to leave my family penniless, when the odds were against me, and I might not have much quality time left anyhow. If it's somebody else's money, sure - why not? Maybe that is what is immoral?

-ERD50

In order to evaluate this situation, I try to do as you have done -- reduce the variables to a minimum, see how it looks and then expand the variables.

Thus, I first ask myself what I would do in the following situation: I am clearly dying, but there are machines and drugs that could keep me alive for another week. However, in order to do that, my children will be forced to give up every asset they own to pay for it, which will lead to their eventual starvation and death. In such situation, I would hope that I could muster the strength of character to say "I'm not going to be any more ready to go next week than I am now, and I would prefer that my children not starve, so I won't get the treatment." I think most parents would say the same.

Now, expand the variables. Since I don't have any children, I am really talking about having other people's children bear the cost of my continued week of life. And what if it just meant that they couldn't buy a big screen TV? And what if it were a month or a year? And what if the outcome were entirely uncertain? What about only a 10% chance of life extension? 20%? etc.

The situation can quickly become very complex and convoluted. But at heart, it is the same question -- how much should I burden my children to extend my own life? At some point, given technological advances in medical care, we will be unable to avoid making these decisions, individually and as a society. I hope that we can be both rational and compassionate when we finally do address the issue.
 
... she could no believe that we called and had an appointment in less than one hour... the doc ran some test etc.. gave a shot, got some prescriptons and we were out of there...

Not exactly a typical experiencing over here. Most folks in America would also have a hard time believing it would be possible to get an appointment that quickly.
 
Since I worked on London for mega for a bit over a year.... (back in 2000).. my experience is a bit different than what you state... almost all of the people that I met (also professionals) seemed to have negative things to say about their system... most people who had something minor would not even go to the doctor since it would be weeks before they could get an appointment....

Well, yes. Fewer doctor visits implies a reduction in medical expenses, which IS the goal.

Mission accomplished.
 
Yes they do. But that is not all due to health care.

But we spend more than other developed nations per capita!


Since this was about Canada vs US cost, I did not see the exact figure for the UK... But there is a Bar Chart... The US spends about double the amount per person compared to the the UK.

Comparison of the health care systems in Canada and the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which implies that even a 20% VAT and $8/gallon gas would not be enough to have the same type of system in the US. Cost control is the key, but it's not going to be cut in half overnight either.
 
The situation can quickly become very complex and convoluted. But at heart, it is the same question -- how much should I burden my children to extend my own life? At some point, given technological advances in medical care, we will be unable to avoid making these decisions, individually and as a society. I hope that we can be both rational and compassionate when we finally do address the issue.

That's why I personally think it is important to meet with a doctor and put together a living will that specifies when 'enough is enough', while I can think clearly about the issues, and am not already so far along 'the process' that I cannot clearly express my wishes.

One of the nice, but often overlooked items in the recent health care legislation modifies Section 1861(s)(s) of the Social Security Act to permit Medicare providers to have this discussion about end of life care with their patients. This was the bit that Rep. John Boehner said would "start us down a treacherous path toward government-encouraged euthanasia." (There is a possibility that he may have been exaggerating a bit.)
 
Interesting Topic - Poll Results Surprise Me

This is a favorite topic of mine. I've spent hours writing elected officials, debating the pro and con. The answer seems obvious to me. I realize it's a complex topic and it's likely there is not a simple, one size fits all method of addressing health care and health care insurance. Yes, they are two different topics. While many interchange the phrases health care with health insurance they are separate.

I have not taken time to read the entire thread but I will come back to it when time permits. As I said above the answer seems obvious. In my mind at least part of the obvious answer is we all (as invidviduals) must realize that when you spend other people's money (OPM) you don't spend it as wisely as when you spend your own hard-earned money. Therefore, I am clearly on the side of less governement involvement. That being said, I think the government needs to establish a framework to make a health care and health care insurance system work well for most if not all citizens. Let me stress that government only provides the framework - less is better - let the individual decide how much insurance to purchase - let the individual decide if they want a high deductible or a low deductible. Let the individual decide if they want insurance to cover out of pocket expenses.

So what's up with the nearly 43% of you that voted (as of 12/20/2010) for a tax-funded, comprehensive government health plan? You actually want to redistribute your money (i.e. taxes) to the governement so they can waste it on programs like Medicare and Medicaid? Those programs (like most government programs) have become so convoluted they don't make sense.

I'm a compassionate person... I can understand society has obligations... but a tax-funded, comprehensive government health plan. Maybe I gotta go back and read the thread. Maybe this is a joke. It's a joke right?

If you voted for a tax-funded, comprehensive government health plan in the above poll please take time to read the article September 2009 article in The Atlantic by David Goldhill.

How American Health Care Killed My Father - Magazine - The Atlantic
 
So what's up with the nearly 43% of you that voted (as of 12/20/2010) for a tax-funded, comprehensive government health plan? You actually want to redistribute your money (i.e. taxes) to the governement so they can waste it on programs like Medicare and Medicaid? Those programs (like most government programs) have become so convoluted they don't make sense.

Well, ya gotta remember, there's a bunch of those damn old people that hang out here. Those greedy ole pharts paid into Medicare for 40-50 years in many cases, and actually expect to collect some benefits from the program.

Yeah. Shocking how the government would waste all that money they collected on some old people, when they could be losing it in unreconciled transactions (24.5 billion in 2003), or spending $108 million on unused airline tickets, or dumping $8.5 billion into overpayments of Earned Income Tax Credits.

(Between me and my employers, I have $244,758 in Medicare. That's enough to cover a $1500 a month medical policy for over thirteen and a half years. If y'all decide Medicare is wasted on old people, I'd like that money back, please. kthxbai.)
 
I just read through the Atlantic article above.

Nearly 30 years ago, my former employer, a large aerospace company, was already alarmed by the rising cost of health care. It organized and pushed for health care reform at the state level. It has been a while, and I do not remember all the details, but one of the objectives was to make the hospital charges more transparent, and to have the customers, i.e. the patients, understand the cost of the service that they were getting.

That proposition was voted down. The health care customers simply did not care; they believed that the cost was not directly borne by themselves, and the measure would simply restrict the availability of care that they would get. This was back when we did not have any copay, and the insurance premium was still dirt cheap.

About the article, a friend of mine in his 60s said something similarly regarding his experience. His father was a blue collar worker, and did not have insurance. Yet, he never had problems going to a doctor if he needed to. The payment was in cash, and it was never that big a deal to his father. As the article pointed out, when there were fewer middle men between the service provider and the consumer, and the consumer was more informed to shop for better deals, the costs would be lower.
 
Shocking how the government would waste all that money they collected on some old people...

I don't think the question is really whether we should get some benefits from Medicare that we have been paying into, but rather if we get our money's worth. There is a difference between price and quality and efficacy, whether health care or anything else.
 
(Between me and my employers, I have $244,758 in Medicare. That's enough to cover a $1500 a month medical policy for over thirteen and a half years. If y'all decide Medicare is wasted on old people, I'd like that money back, please. kthxbai.)

Don't forget the $200+ per month you will spend on Medicare supplements and premiums even when you're getting the benefits...
 
I don't think the question is really whether we should get some benefits from Medicare that we have been paying into, but rather if we get our money's worth. There is a difference between price and quality and efficacy, whether health care or anything else.

I'd say we get OUR money's worth. It's just that the money goes about half as far as in other countries.

Everything seems to be more expensive in the US. Now, some would say that is just our natural burden as we have to fund all that R&D work, but it turns out that a bit over half the medical (including pharmaceutical) R&D spending takes place outside the US. We do lead in Marketing expenditures for pharmaceuticals and medical expendables, though. Must be all those print and TV ads to keep us informed. Yay us.

Alas, we don't have exactly a competitive marketplace in the US for the medical industry. About half of medical care spending comes from government programs (Medicare/Medicaid/VA/Tricare/SCHIP) with it's own pay per service price schedules. Much of the rest comes from bulk insurance coverage, mostly corporate group plans, with negotiated pay per service pricing, often tied to Medicare rates. The supply of physicians is restricted by negotiated limits on the number of medical residencies (set between Congress, the Association of American Medical Colleges, and the AMA). The cost to train a physician sets a floor on what the indebted newly minted doctor needs in income.

So far, the focus of reducing the cost of health care in this discussion has been on denying care. Dex mentioned the NIH model for determining appropriate care late in life. It's good to have some information. Thanks.

Now, what else can be done to actually lower the cost of treatment, or make some level of treatment more widely available?

We could set things up so that free market forces are actually at work. Move everyone to private individual insurance, for example, so everyone sees the full insurance cost and not just their co-payment. Loosen up the doctor supply. Heck, I bet for less than the indigent support paid through Medicaid that the government could flat out pay physician education through grants, improving the supply of doctors and lowering their indebtedness on graduation. (Yes, technically that's a subsidy. Like what we do for wheat, corn, cotton, rice, and soybean farmers across the country, 29.8 BILLION in FY 2000.)

I'm pretty sure that the centrally planned medical economy that we effectively (or ineffectively) have could be significantly improved on.
 
Each of us do it every day.

As an example, I don't know anyone who pays to have a fully certified mechanic on their personal staff. Their car should get a full safety inspection prior to every single drive. What if your brakes failed? But it would be too expensive to do that.

You can give so many examples of this. How many CO2 and different types of smoke detectors do you have in your house, different types are better at detecting different types of smoke. Do you have a sprinkler system? On and on. We all make this decision. But, if those mechanics or other things were available 'for free', many more would insist on frequent inspections. Total expenditures would go through the roof.

And if I were in a mental state to be able to make the decision, I would absolutely decide to stop seeking medical treatment based on cost. At some point, I would not want to leave my family penniless, when the odds were against me, and I might not have much quality time left anyhow. If it's somebody else's money, sure - why not? Maybe that is what is immoral?

-ERD50

You are mixing apples and oranges. Mechanic checks, smoke detectors and the like are preventive measures—they guard against negative outcomes that may possibly happen in the future. But there is a difference between failing to prevent death, and actively withdrawing or withholding treatment when the certain outcome of that withdrawal will be death within minutes, hours or days. The only person who has the right to make the decision to cease treatment is you, or someone to whom you have given authority to make it on your behalf in the event you are incapacitated.

If you were in a mental state to make the decision and elected to decline further treatment, I would have no argument. What is immoral is for someone else to decide to withdraw treatment from you, without your consent and possibly against your wishes, solely because of the cost. The question "what is the right thing to do?" cannot be answered by a dollar amount.
 
Come on... just a pile of words.

I am not going to pretend that I know every detail of the problem. But I have read a lot... because there are tons of reports that have been published.

I am not saying we should model our system exactly like the UK or the other Industrialized nations.

The data shows that we are spending more per person and have higher mortality rates.

Which implies that even a 20% VAT and $8/gallon gas would not be enough to have the same type of system in the US.

The only thing I can figure is you aren't thinking about what you are saying or are not thinking about the actual numbers or what the words mean.

Cost control is the key, but it's not going to be cut in half overnight either.

Yes... this is part of the problem. But a broad generalization that is like stating crops will have problems if we have a drought.



Wikipedia provide some basic facts and figures. You can find these from other sources.

United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Look at this chart.

Healthcare Costs Around the World - VisualEconomics.com


The UK has 1/6 of the US GDP. They have 1/5 of our population. In other words we are worth more/make more and have fewer people per $ of GDP. However, we pay double what they pay per person on average for health care.

What do we get for it? Not better health results... but apparently for non-life threatening situations... faster service.

Fast service is good... but if it is not sustainable something will have to give. On an economic basis people will choose to wait if it cost too much... they make choices.... even with our current system.

As our costs continue to spiral upward... we will all be in jeopardy.

Those of us that work and or have nicely subsidize plans do not see it too directly yet (the company pays it)... But business will not be willing to shoulder the burden... they will pass it through. Many are passing it through!

Health care inflation is outpacing income growth (for families and individuals).

Family Health Premiums Reach $13,375 Annually in 2009 Up 5 Percent as Inflation Fell Nearly 1 Percent - Kaiser Family Foundation


Ultimately, the way we manage it is out of whack and has to change.



If you keep it up with the half truths and misinformation... I am going to call you an insurance agent. :D
 
You are mixing apples and oranges.

OK, but it was to point out that we make $ vs life risk decisions everyday, and we all often side with money. And we may put our children in those cars or homes with less than perfect maintenance, and they have no say in the matter. So maybe we are all immoral, even when we have control of the situation? Having say, five CO2 detectors instead of just one or two (or none!) is within just about everyones budget. It is different (preventative), but it still makes the point (albeit from a slightly different angle).

But my second example is a direct comparison. So let's stick with that.

If you were in a mental state to make the decision and elected to decline further treatment, I would have no argument. What is immoral is for someone else to decide to withdraw treatment from you, without your consent and possibly against your wishes, solely because of the cost. The question "what is the right thing to do?" cannot be answered by a dollar amount.

Except money isn't some infinite resource, so we do need to ration it. Extending a poor quality of life for a short time at high expense means those dollars are being taken from someone else who might need it more. I'll call that immoral. I also see it as somewhat immoral to make a decision with someone else's money that I wouldn't make with my own money. That is a big issue with cost controls in general.

There needs to be some guidelines here if it is going to be funded with public money. It can't be whatever someone wants without limits. And I guarantee that not everyone will agree with those limits. Such is life (and death).

-ERD50
 
This is a favorite topic of mine. I've spent hours writing elected officials, debating the pro and con. The answer seems obvious to me. I realize it's a complex topic and it's likely there is not a simple, one size fits all method of addressing health care and health care insurance. Yes, they are two different topics. While many interchange the phrases health care with health insurance they are separate.

I have not taken time to read the entire thread but I will come back to it when time permits. As I said above the answer seems obvious. In my mind at least part of the obvious answer is we all (as invidviduals) must realize that when you spend other people's money (OPM) you don't spend it as wisely as when you spend your own hard-earned money. Therefore, I am clearly on the side of less governement involvement. That being said, I think the government needs to establish a framework to make a health care and health care insurance system work well for most if not all citizens. Let me stress that government only provides the framework - less is better - let the individual decide how much insurance to purchase - let the individual decide if they want a high deductible or a low deductible. Let the individual decide if they want insurance to cover out of pocket expenses.

So what's up with the nearly 43% of you that voted ...

I happen to be in the 18%, not the 43%. But I wonder what you mean by "framework".
Suppose I buy private insurance and then get cancer. My insurer will see that the rationale profit seeking decision is to refuse to renew my insurance.
Or, suppose I get my insurance through employer group and my employer goes out of business or decides to drop group insurance. I'd like to continue my coverage at normal rates, but the insurer wants to drop me.
Or, suppose I'm a young person with a congenital problem. I've aged out of normal "family" coverage and my parents' insurer doesn't want to continue my coverage.
Or maybe I'm a young person and I believe I'm immortal, until I'm injured in a one car crash. I don't have any insurance for my injuries.
Do these situations involve the government "framework"?
 
My conversations took place just prior to the election.... not 10 years ago.

They said there were some problems that had to be ironed out.

I have no illusions... I am sure their system is not perfect. For that matter, it may not be a good fit for America. But they seemed to be happy and healthy.

On that note, ever meet anyone who didn't have a complaint? For that matter, ever see a complex system that couldn't use some improvement?


I hear a lot of complaining here in the US.... and it is getting louder as prices spiral upward.... and that is from the people that have coverage.

Those who do not have coverage really have something to complain about!


I don't think the system has gotten better over the years... but who knows, I could be wrong..

BTW, when I left the big thing that was starting to be offered was private health insurance... I do not know how big it has become, but it seem strange that if a system is so good you can give incentives to employees to get around that system...
 
I chose individual responsibility. If I choose to go it alone, so be it. At no time are you responsible for my bills or bad choices, but I am not responsible for yours. I believe that if people we actually involved in the fiscal transaction prices would go down. A doctor or hospital would have to compete for your business and set prices accordingly. I mean would you go in to the ER for a small cut if you knew it would cost $500 dollars? Would you go to the doctor if you had the flu, if a clinic would see you for half the cost? People do it now because its included in their plans. Might as well use it if you got it and who cares what it really costs.

With the overwhelming government control of the industry competition is non-existent. Can't a tech give you a shot or stitch up a small wound? Can't a RN at a clinic interpret your blood work or prescribe antibiotics? I think they can. Sure surgery and complex cases require a doctor, but you can always be referred if you are beyond the skills of a tech or RN. For instance if you cut your hand and needed stitches would you go to the ER for $500 or a clinic and see a tech for $100? I would trust an ex military medic or retired EMT to do something like that. I don't mind the Fed or the states regulating certain aspects, but if I want to pay a tech to sew up my hand (or any number of other things) I should be able too. Information and the free market are my protection, not some bureaucrat.

To me this doesn't mean we can't have catastrophic insurance, but now I pay into a pool for colonoscopys. They cost a few hundred bucks and you maybe have 3 or 4 during your life. I pay into a pool so I can get a $20 copay for a doctors visit that costs $100, but only because that is the negotiated rate not what the market will bear. Considering I usually see the doctor for about 2 minutes, does that make sense? We all pay into a pool to help reduce the cost of mundane services that without the regulation and insurance price setting would likely be very affordable.

Government regulation and oversight doesn't solve problems, it creates them. Then it claims we need more oversight and regulation to fix the unintended consequences, not to mention money. I realize medical care costs more today because of the technology employed, but the current system is like paying for auto insurance that covers burned out taillights and dirty windshields as well as catastrophic damage to your car. I don't mind paying for insurance that covers major surgeries and illnesses, but I don't want to pay for some over protective mom's or hypochondriac's constant visits to the doctor and ER or for some dude's AA treatment or some gal's methadone. And I definitely don't want the government telling me I have to buy that coverage and then telling me how to live my life or rationing my access to care to make it affordable.

And by the way, government means Federal Government. The Constitution does not preclude the states from playing with this stuff and in my mind that's the way it should be. 50 experiments in democracy. If California or New York want to dabble in state run health care let them. If Texas wants a free for all, let 'em. We'll see how it goes and let people migrate to the state of their choosing.

In the interest of self preservation, I will not visit this thread again. I know that the above convinced nobody to change their opinion and any future arguments will accomplish nothing either.:D
 
Ultimately, the way we manage it is out of whack and has to change.

If you keep it up with the half truths and misinformation... I am going to call you an insurance agent. :D

I deleted most of the quote to save some space, but I think you missed my point. We already spend ~2x the amount as the UK (among other countries) per capita on healthcare. My point was that if the UK already has a 20% VAT and massive gasoline taxes and only spends half of what we do, how would a country like the US account for the extra spending required based on the per capita numbers? Would we have a 40% VAT and $16/gallon gas? Even if you reduce the per capita cost (unlikely at this point), it won't be cut to UK levels overnight.

Without giving people some skin in the game (a big chunk, not just $10 co-pays) for their own costs, costs will continue to rise. It's always easy to spend somebody else's money. Third party payments for basic health services is the #1 thing driving healthcare costs in my opinion.
 
I voted other.

My suggestions are fixing certain inefficiencies in the system and improving access through creative means. That creativity could be in form of products, distribution, or general problem solving.

Examples

In efficiency 1 is different people pay different things, depending on who their provider is. Private company 1 vs private company 2 vs medicare vs medicaid all have different costs for the same MRI or the same surgery. This is inefficient- make everyone pay for same service at same hospital or treatment center (regardless of insurance). Much of this could be accomplished thru full disclosure (disclose procedure and price prior to service).

Another example of inefficiency is there are lots of plans (even by same insurance company) and it would be simpler in some cases if there were fewer plans by more providers (not more plans by fewer providers) to encourage competition.


An example of a product which has merit (but does not exist) is combine health insurance and life insurance (as an option) for some consumers.

For example if I need $500,000 in term coverage, why not add a health insurance rider to the policy and charge me more for the coverage? Meaning give me 500k of term coverage and 7k of annual health costs (covered) for a larger premium, and carry this for a specific term (meaning I have locked in my costs and coverage for a term of 10-20 years).

Similar to permanent (whole life) insurance, offer a plan with $1 M in coverage. For every dollar of health coverage I need it reduces the death benefit dollar for dollar.

Both options allow someone to lock in their costs for a period of time (term of 20 years or for whole life). And the premiums paid can be added to sub account (similar to an HSA) which can grow bigger than the policy value.

Most importantly this means more companies will compete for health insurance dollars, so the costs to consumers should decrease.
 
Stop Spending OPM

Third party payments for basic health services is the #1 thing driving healthcare costs...

Couldn't agree more! Stop spending OPM and health care and health care insurance costs will straighten out in a few years.

For example - somebody is in a serious automobile crash and requires significant surgery, rehabilitation, etc. That's what insurance is for.

On the other hand - you get a cold or the flu - go to the doctor if you want and pay for the visit. Then pay for the medication. You might just decide you should stay home and rest for a few days and recuperate.

Spending your money will put you much more in touch with the cost. When individuals are aware of the actual costs they will make much more rational decisions.

A previous post indicated it may be immoral to spend OPM on something you would not spend your own money on. I agree.
 
Back
Top Bottom