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Old 03-23-2009, 04:59 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
So, you think it's perfectly fine for a CEO to legitimately loot his company and abuse his fiduciary responsibilities by engaging in "perverse compensation" practices like paying himself "exorbitant" levels of compensation that bear no relationship to long term growth and long term business practices of the company he's mismanaging -- where there is really no effective way of policing this, other than counter-productive shareholder derivative suits?
A few words:
-- Board of Directors.
-- Contract
-- Informed and consenting adults
-- Private parties engaged in private business
-- Lack of fraud or force
-- Civil court

There is certainly room for improvements in the mechanisms whereby the BoD responds to the shareholders and whereby the CEO's self-interests are more properly aligned with those of the company. These improvements would help the free market (that is, the market for the services and compensation of CEOs) function more effectively. That's very different from the legislative or executie branch making judgements about how much a person should get paid.
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Old 03-23-2009, 06:10 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
So, you think it's perfectly fine for a CEO to legitimately loot his company and abuse his fiduciary responsibilities by engaging in "perverse compensation" practices like paying himself "exorbitant" levels of compensation that bear no relationship to long term growth and long term business practices of the company he's mismanaging -- where there is really no effective way of policing this, other than counter-productive shareholder derivative suits? You want the Government to stand on the sidelines and not ensure greater transparency for shareholders or ensure a greater level playing field. .
Ummm... YES!!!

I also believe in the right to private property. You actually made my point for me very well. If it is YOUR company, and you are the CEO, then you are free to pay yourself whatever salary you see fit. Hence the concept of private ownership. As in the govt does not have the right to tell you how to run your business. Businesses that structure themselves properly and pay decent salaries tend to do well and survive. Those that do a poor job of it, tend to go bankrupt and fail. And that is as it should be.

No matter how much the US goverment might want to, there is just no way to "legislate" prosperity for everyone. The economy is based on millions of "individual" choices made by people every day. Some of those decisions will be good ones, and some will be bad. Some will probably even be ruinous. The govt seems to want to control each and every decision that each of us makes everyday. i completely understand their desire for it. From their point of view, they have the "big picture". And if only they could make (I would substitute the word force) every single person to do what they each wanted us to do, then everything would turn out just great.

And you know what... if they had that level of control, they are probably right! But that form of govt is called totalitarian, not a democracy. And I doubt it is a system that anyone in here would want to live under.
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Old 03-23-2009, 06:25 PM   #43
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Ummm... YES!!!

I also believe in the right to private property. You actually made my point for me very well. If it is YOUR company, and you are the CEO, then you are free to pay yourself whatever salary you see fit. Hence the concept of private ownership. As in the govt does not have the right to tell you how to run your business. Businesses that structure themselves properly and pay decent salaries tend to do well and survive. Those that do a poor job of it, tend to go bankrupt and fail. And that is as it should be.

No matter how much the US goverment might want to, there is just no way to "legislate" prosperity for everyone. The economy is based on millions of "individual" choices made by people every day. Some of those decisions will be good ones, and some will be bad. Some will probably even be ruinous. The govt seems to want to control each and every decision that each of us makes everyday. i completely understand their desire for it. From their point of view, they have the "big picture". And if only they could make (I would substitute the word force) every single person to do what they each wanted us to do, then everything would turn out just great.

And you know what... if they had that level of control, they are probably right! But that form of govt is called totalitarian, not a democracy. And I doubt it is a system that anyone in here would want to live under.

Agreed. But AIG crossed the private/public line when they stuck their snout in the bailout trough and started feeding off the taxpayers. I don't think this has anything to do with legislating prosperity; folks are concerned about legal, moral, and ethical impropriety on AIG's part and the complete lack of oversight by our elected officials.
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Old 03-23-2009, 07:51 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by samclem View Post
A few words:
-- Board of Directors.
-- Contract
-- Informed and consenting adults
-- Private parties engaged in private business
-- Lack of fraud or force
-- Civil court

There is certainly room for improvements in the mechanisms whereby the BoD responds to the shareholders and whereby the CEO's self-interests are more properly aligned with those of the company. These improvements would help the free market (that is, the market for the services and compensation of CEOs) function more effectively. That's very different from the legislative or executie branch making judgements about how much a person should get paid.
A few words back at you: those words don't work effectively! We keep on tinkering, by the way, with appropriate rules, whether legislatively or judicially engrafted, on appropriate corporate behavior so it's not like the prevailing view is to leave this entirely to free-market concepts!
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Old 03-23-2009, 08:01 PM   #45
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Ummm... YES!!!

I also believe in the right to private property. You actually made my point for me very well. If it is YOUR company, and you are the CEO, then you are free to pay yourself whatever salary you see fit. Hence the concept of private ownership. As in the govt does not have the right to tell you how to run your business. Businesses that structure themselves properly and pay decent salaries tend to do well and survive. Those that do a poor job of it, tend to go bankrupt and fail. And that is as it should be.

No matter how much the US goverment might want to, there is just no way to "legislate" prosperity for everyone. The economy is based on millions of "individual" choices made by people every day. Some of those decisions will be good ones, and some will be bad. Some will probably even be ruinous. The govt seems to want to control each and every decision that each of us makes everyday. i completely understand their desire for it. From their point of view, they have the "big picture". And if only they could make (I would substitute the word force) every single person to do what they each wanted us to do, then everything would turn out just great.

And you know what... if they had that level of control, they are probably right! But that form of govt is called totalitarian, not a democracy. And I doubt it is a system that anyone in here would want to live under.
We have a basic failure to communicate based on a differing foundation. Ah fagedboutit. In your view, the SEC, FDA, and EPA have no business telling you how to run your business, right?
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Old 03-23-2009, 09:23 PM   #46
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From tomorrow's WSJ:

Quote:
"New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo said late Monday that 15 of the top 20 retention bonus recipients in AIG's Financial Products unit have agreed to give back their bonuses -- amounting to returned cash in excess of $30 million."
I can only guess that those giving the money back were under intense pressure from the managementy and others in the industry "You are making us all look bad, and the government is threatening to close down the trough. For Pete's sake, give back your 2008 bonus and we'll make it up to you later."

I'd like to read about at least one guy with backbone who gives every dime of the bonus to soup kitchens and animal shelters. If the government wants the money they can confiscate from those entities.

Or, maybe buy a Hummer (the bigger and more fuel-thirsty, the better) and hire people to drive it around in front of government buildings in DC throwing money to pedestrians at random.
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Old 03-23-2009, 10:40 PM   #47
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From tomorrow's WSJ:



I can only guess that those giving the money back were under intense pressure from the managementy and others in the industry "You are making us all look bad, and the government is threatening to close down the trough. For Pete's sake, give back your 2008 bonus and we'll make it up to you later."

I'd like to read about at least one guy with backbone who gives every dime of the bonus to soup kitchens and animal shelters. If the government wants the money they can confiscate from those entities.

Or, maybe buy a Hummer (the bigger and more fuel-thirsty, the better) and hire people to drive it around in front of government buildings in DC throwing money to pedestrians at random.
whoa, sam- remember-decaf after dinner!
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Old 03-23-2009, 11:04 PM   #48
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We have a basic failure to communicate based on a differing foundation. Ah fagedboutit. In your view, the SEC, FDA, and EPA have no business telling you how to run your business, right?
Yes.... correct...
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Old 03-24-2009, 07:08 AM   #49
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Or, maybe buy a Hummer (the bigger and more fuel-thirsty, the better) and hire people to drive it around in front of government buildings in DC throwing money to pedestrians at random.
Why spend the money prudently? In a true middle finger to congress move, one should take the multi-million dollar bonus and just waste it. You know, hire a bunch of blowhards to form a committee to brainstorm and discuss how horrible a job congress is doing and then lambaste them for continuing to accept their paychecks, receiving travel reimbursements and flying around the country on private jets (since they are being supported by the taxpayers, you know) while the country is in the middle of the deepest recession since the Great Depression and people are starving and dying on the street.
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Old 03-24-2009, 10:25 AM   #50
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Agreed. But AIG crossed the private/public line when they stuck their snout in the bailout trough and started feeding off the taxpayers. I don't think this has anything to do with legislating prosperity; folks are concerned about legal, moral, and ethical impropriety on AIG's part and the complete lack of oversight by our elected officials.
AGREE!

The free marketers can declare that govmt should never stick their nose in business' business as long as business is not allowed to crawl on their knees for a meganormous bail out at taxpayer's expense for an industry-wide virus of risk-taking and greed...
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Old 03-24-2009, 12:05 PM   #51
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Agreed. But AIG crossed the private/public line when they stuck their snout in the bailout trough and started feeding off the taxpayers. I don't think this has anything to do with legislating prosperity; folks are concerned about legal, moral, and ethical impropriety on AIG's part and the complete lack of oversight by our elected officials.
I'm impressed with how well CongressCritters are deflecting blame from themselves through all this. Why was there a Congress-written clause in the AIG bailout contract providing for the payment of these bonuses? And how is it that the authors of the clause are now our white knight saviors harvesting popularity for undoing what they themselves did?

I tell ya, this crop of elected crooks is just about as good at this crap as any I've ever seen....... And I'm a Chicago guy, so I've seen some of the very best!
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Old 03-26-2009, 12:34 AM   #52
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AGREE!

The free marketers can declare that govmt should never stick their nose in business' business as long as business is not allowed to crawl on their knees for a meganormous bail out at taxpayer's expense for an industry-wide virus of risk-taking and greed...

Absolutely!!! The same reason that there is the separation of church and state, is the reason there should be a separation of business and state. The very action of govt and business intertwining, causes an instant, and immediate conflict of interest doesn't it?

The govt should concern itself with the country, things that involve everyone. A business should concern itself with only what makes profit for itself (an individual view). If a govt is suddenly concerned with what is best for a particular business.... or a business makes moves for what is best for the country... then neither can survive for very long.... because they are opposing forces.
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Old 03-26-2009, 10:23 AM   #53
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To sum it up, "Hi, we're from the govt, and we're here to help".........
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