U.S. Spends 141% More on Health Care

That's the deal you make for overall care for everyone. The UK populace likes that deal and the NHS is UK's political "third rail". I don't think such as system would be appropriate for the US because of it's emphasis on individualism rather than the collective good.
One of the things which the UK politicians have tried to introduce is "patient choice". Perhaps they got it from the US, if this earlier post by samclem is typical:
Without at least a pseudo-market in health care (informed consumers making choices with assets they control, companies benefitting when they reduce costs and provide better service), it's unlikely things will improve.
I've never understood what "patient choice" was about. OK, if I'm diagnosed with X, I want to know what my treatment choices are (for example: "operation / pain control / nothing"), but any doctor can give me all that, regardless of the system I'm in. I just want the best chance of getting better. It's not like buying a car and deciding if I want to trade off the sliding roof in the Toyota for the parking camera in the Honda. Even if I were to "shop around", whatever that would mean, I have no way to know which doctor is offering me the "better deal", whatever that would mean.
 
My understanding is that they are using an older MRI technology that is much cheaper than the cutting edge stuff we are now using in the US.

There may be an advantage in not always having to have the shiniest new toy.

An interesting fact in Japan, which has universal private healthcare regulated by the government, is that the average person in Japan visits a doctor 4 times more often than someone in the US and has 5 times more MRI's. Most of the doctor visits are routine, and preventative, so that could also be a factor in their longer livespans.
 
My understanding is that they are using an older MRI technology that is much cheaper than the cutting edge stuff we are now using in the US.

There may be an advantage in not always having to have the shiniest new toy.

Utilization is also a big cost saving. My BIL in the UK has regular MRI's monitoring his brain tumor. His appointments are always in the evenings, after 7 or 8pm, which suits my sister as she doesn't have to take time off work to take him.
 
One of the things which the UK politicians have tried to introduce is "patient choice". Perhaps they got it from the US, if this earlier post by samclem is typical:

I've never understood what "patient choice" was about. OK, if I'm diagnosed with X, I want to know what my treatment choices are (for example: "operation / pain control / nothing"), but any doctor can give me all that, regardless of the system I'm in. I just want the best chance of getting better. It's not like buying a car and deciding if I want to trade off the sliding roof in the Toyota for the parking camera in the Honda. Even if I were to "shop around", whatever that would mean, I have no way to know which doctor is offering me the "better deal", whatever that would mean.

I agree. This doesn't make sense to me at the medical level. At the insurance level one can make choices but these usual are a trade you can understand since they involve costs and coverage.

But suppose you go to the doctor because of very acute indigestion that is keeping you up at night. The doctor asks for a description of a particularly bad episode you recently experienced. After listening to your story, the doctor decides you didn't experience indigestion but you had a heart attack and are on the verge of a massive heart attack. So he looks around and orders every lab test, x-ray, etc. in his own office. Even the X-Ray technician admits mystification when you inquire why all the mobilization. Finally, when you challenge the doctor he says he is calling the ambulance to transport you to the hospital. You go to leave and he calls your husband in and tells him to take you to the hospital. You and your husband get in the car and go home. You go back to work the next day BUT now any time you get burppy you wonder.

It would be a strawman had it not recently happened to me. Until recently I was what I would call over-insured. I needed to hang on to my federal government insurance (FEHB) but there was no reason to drop the BCBS my husband had which was free to us and had better drug coverage. But I am certain that my FFS is a problem with me getting good medical care. It seems to me that I can't get attention paid to a small but debilitating problem for all the incentives the medical experts have to spread the wealth. How is this a shopping problem when it is your guess verses the doctor? And if I have a "shopped-for" doctor who doesn't do this, is he honest or a bad doctor? Beats me.

But, note, if I self-diagnosed wrong and the doctor was sincere, I will leave you forum friends earlier than I expected.

So we have choices? I changed doctors. I chose a doctor that either is not doing this or, with his high throughput of patients just doesn't care much past pushing pills at everything and getting to the next appointment room. He also pushes business card for specialists but never gives an actual referral. This feels like - "don't bother me with your problems; take them somewhere else". He never asks if I followed up and doesn't seem to even record the things I tell him in my alloted <2 minutes appointment.

Shopping? I have moved across country but next time something like this happens I am going to cooperate with the doctor. The psychological lingering affect of what you think is a hyped diagnosis is just too intrusive.

Anyone who has not read this article from the New Yorker really should because too little of the conversation goes down to the health care delivery area:
McAllen, Texas and the high cost of health care : The New Yorker
 
And why are the outcomes better? Could it be due to lifestyle choices? Could it be due to diet? Where is that in the charts? As for Canada we provide a lot of their emergency care on the border. So much it is included in the training for Immigrations.

I don't know why their outcomes are better than ours but I do know european and canadian smoke more than in the US. Maybe the diet is the problem but putting the blame on a particular segment of society is not the solution. We have the most expensive healthcare system in the world and yet so many americans are without med insurance and this has nothing to do with life style choices. The fact that we have this conversation shows that our health care system is in trouble. I can't seem to find such passionate exchanges in any other developed countries about their health care systems. Maybe the solution is right in front of our noses.
 
Its the insurance company profits that make up a large part of the difference....all that $$ isn't going to patient care.
 
From Tadpole:
"Anyone who has not read this article from the New Yorker really should because too little of the conversation goes down to the health care delivery area:
McAllen, Texas and the high cost of health care : The New Yorker"


I've been a registered nurse working in health care for over 35 years. This article reminds me of something a colleague said many, many years ago...which was
"The most expensive thing in health care is the ball point pen in a physicians hand."

I can't even begin to describe the thousands of useless tests, procedures, consults and therapies I have seen prescribed. But....health care is a product, and if you go to where they sell it....they will try and force you to buy top-of-the-line, even when there is no clear advantage to your health.
 
I would say that the entire rest of the western world is a counter argument to this. The whole UK runs on a system very similar to Medicare, except without Medicare's copays and patient cost sharing, and is the most cost effective of all the national systems including ours.

Ha

UK doctors do not get paid anywhere near as much as ours.....


At least back when I lived there in 2000... I worked with a guy whose wife was one of those docs and he made almost twice as much as she did as an accountant....
 
Agree that physicians have lots of power.......and I've seen first hand sitting in physician's offices how much power the drug companies have too.....wooing those physicians....not hard to see who has influence when the drug rep walks right in when there's a waiting room full of patients...and you often can hear scrapes of conversations while waiting...about lunches, dinners, etc. Somehow this plays a role too into the formula of why things cost so much here while not giving us the benefit compared to the cost.
 
I give up. It's like one of the posters said on another thread, there is nothing that can be said that someone can't say something to counter it, and it would take a judge to ajudicate it all.

To me it is as clear as the nose on my face, and that is good enough for me.

I will only hassle like this for money, I got over the thrill of arguing for its own sake about 3 decades ago.


Ha

Oh come on.... arguing can be fun :greetings10:



As to a universal system.... I just do not trust our government to get it right.. and if they do not, then I have no choice after it happens... I have to live with it....

Right now, in our expensive and flawed system, I still have choices... if I do not like the docs I go to, or the group they are in.... I can choose another doc or another group of docs...

Now, the Swiss system is intriguing... a single payor system with options etc. etc... but I still do not think it addresses the high costs we have...
 
Oh come on.... arguing can be fun :greetings10:



As to a universal system.... I just do not trust our government to get it right.. and if they do not, then I have no choice after it happens... I have to live with it....

Right now, in our expensive and flawed system, I still have choices... if I do not like the docs I go to, or the group they are in.... I can choose another doc or another group of docs...

.
And this is true of the entire rest of the world's systems, (including cost leader UK) regardless of demagoguery to the contrary.

This illustrates why one should not argue these topics on the internet. The minumum requirement for a discussion, as opposed to an argument, is that all participants be familiar with the known facts.

UK doctors do not get paid anywhere near as much as ours.....
And that is true for pretty much the entire world. But what conclusion do you draw from that? The "..." doesn't really tell me.


Ha
 
As to question of choice in the UK you can still choose your primary doctor I believe. You always could when I was living here, and I believe it is still the same now. Our friends where we are currently staying have already told us [-]witch[/-] which Doctor they usually choose when they have to go to the health center. I know the same has been true for our families as they have had a lot of medical problems this last few years.

Where I have seen a lot more choice in the USA is with specialists. When I had foot problems in my 20's I was referred to a consultant at the local hospital, and seen by one of his Registrars who decided on surgery. I met the consultant himself on the day of the surgery and he explained what was going to be done.

In the USA I have had surgery 3 times and each time I had a choice, which I made on initial recommendation of my primary doctor followed up by myself prior to making an appointment. When I needed a specialist for my shoulder my Doc asked me who did my knee surgery (my primary Doc had retired since then). When I told her, she said that he was great for knees but she would recommend Doc "X", who had many LSU baseball players as patients and was highly regarded as an expert on elbows and shoulders.
 
And this is true of the entire rest of the world's systems, (including cost leader UK) regardless of demagoguery to the contrary.

This illustrates why one should not argue these topics on the internet. The minumum requirement for a discussion, as opposed to an argument, is that all participants be familiar with the known facts.

And that is true for pretty much the entire world. But what conclusion do you draw from that? The "..." doesn't really tell me.


Ha


It tells me that as long as our costs are higher than the other countries everybody compares us to, we will always be paying more per person than any other country... no matter what system we are under...

some doctors here make more than $1 million a year.... I doubt you could find that level of compensation in any other country (but then again, I could be wrong)....
 
It tells me that as long as our costs are higher than the other countries everybody compares us to, we will always be paying more per person than any other country... no matter what system we are under...

some doctors here make more than $1 million a year.... I doubt you could find that level of compensation in any other country (but then again, I could be wrong)....

There is a comparison here: How Much Do Doctors in Other Countries Make? - NYTimes.com

Issues that are not mentioned are duration of training - in many countries you can earn the equivalent of an MD degree in fewer years than possible in the US. That will be reflected somewhat in the student debt but also means you have fewer years to earn. Also there are large regional variations for compensation - desirable locations usually pay significantly less (simple supply and demand). It would be interesting to see a comparison of physician satisfaction across these countries as well. Having to deal with all the dysfunctional elements of our current system is burning out a lot of docs.

DD
 
Not quite true. Waits in the US can be long if you need to see a specialist, need a non-emergency appointment with your primary care doctor or are sitting in an emergency room. I do not have the info at hand, but a number of other countries outshine us on wait times and have good care and are less expensive than us.

Certainly NOT Canada and England...........;)
 
It tells me that as long as our costs are higher than the other countries everybody compares us to, we will always be paying more per person than any other country... no matter what system we are under...

some doctors here make more than $1 million a year.... I doubt you could find that level of compensation in any other country (but then again, I could be wrong)....

One of my dad's newest neighbors is from Egypt. He was a top surgeon there but never made more than $42,000 US dollars in Cairo.
 
Certainly NOT Canada and England...........;)

When I lived in the UK I had private insurance provided by my company, which is very common, and the purpose of that is exactly to have little or no wait to see specialists. When I had my foot surgery in '84 I was able to choose a date to suit my commitments to the big project I was working on.

Even without insurance you have the option of paying privately to jump the queue, otherwise you have to wait. I've known a couple of people who have paid for an initial consultation so they can find out how serious their knee or hip problem is and what options they have for treatment.
 
One of my dad's newest neighbors is from Egypt. He was a top surgeon there but never made more than $42,000 US dollars in Cairo.

And the average per capita income in Egypt is? I bet you could live very well in Egypt on that much money.

DD
 
And the average per capita income in Egypt is? I bet you could live very well in Egypt on that much money.

DD
THE average per capita income in third world countries is not very helpful in addressing what you seem to be addressing, which is how well can this doc live on that salary amount.

One could not do in third world countries what some people on this board do, which is to have upper middle class jobs and live in lesser surroundings to save money.

Other than servants, which are cheap, an upper middle class or upper class (safe) lifetyle in most third world countries can be a fairly expensive proposition.

For the most part, US Docs make much more when measured by a necessary basket of goods and services than other doctors around the world.

I am not interested in debating the merits or otherwise of this. But, it clearly is not making our healthcare any cheaper. :)

Ha
 
Other than servants, which are cheap, an upper middle class or upper class (safe) lifetyle in most third world countries can be a fairly expensive proposition.
That qualification "other than servants" is important. I'm sort of upper middle class, here in the US, but I am miles away from being able to afford servants. In another thread, I suggested that the essential qualification here for being rich was being able to afford servants.
 
While food, I'm sure, is more expensive than in the USA it is not overly so. Quality cheeses and "artisan" breads that we love and eat in USA are actually much cheaper here. e.g. a large whole grain extremely tasty fresh baked, still warm loaf from our local supermarkets costs £1 ($1.60) and we pay well over $3 for that in the USA.
We have been to the UK only once, and in that short trip did not get out of London. I remember telling myself that "Gosh, food is really expensive here!". In other European countries, we spent some time out in the countryside, and hope to do so in our next trip to England. I can use some more affordable meals. :) By the way, my experience was that food cost was lowest in Spain.

Anyway, statistics do show that Americans are heavier than Europeans. According to CDC, in 2000, the mean BMI for US males was 27.9 for men, and 28.2 for women. Compared that to Europe, where the male BMI ranged from 24.6 for France (mademoiselles at 23.5 ;)) to 27.6 for Greek males. The Brit males weighted in at 26.4. Note that the European survey was for people 15 and older, while the US data was for the age group of 20-74.

How much of that extra weight influences different national healthcare costs? I now begin to think that the weight effect may not be that much, and in the case of the US, is masked out by other factors. I will follow up later.

References: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/ad/ad347.pdf, and Health Stats UK File.
 
THE average per capita income in third world countries is not very helpful in addressing what you seem to be addressing, which is how well can this doc live on that salary amount.

One could not do in third world countries what some people on this board do, which is to have upper middle class jobs and live in lesser surroundings to save money.

Other than servants, which are cheap, an upper middle class or upper class (safe) lifetyle in most third world countries can be a fairly expensive proposition.

For the most part, US Docs make much more when measured by a necessary basket of goods and services than other doctors around the world.

I am not interested in debating the merits or otherwise of this. But, it clearly is not making our healthcare any cheaper. :)

Ha

If you follow the link I posted above there is a comparison in purchasing power parity, not per capita, for the reasons you stated. Interestingly GP's came out highest in the US but US specialists did not. My point was that throwing out a single number ($42K) is meaningless as it is an apples to oranges comparison. As I have an obviously biased opinion I'm not going to vigorously defend US physician pay - although I would note that in my specialty I could make the same or more in Canada. In Australia or NZ I would make about a third less.

DD
 
I'm not so sure about this skin-in-the-game argument. Maybe with elective surgery - cosmetic, hip replacement and the like. And maybe if the copay is substantial enough to make you really think twice about it. But do we really want to encourage people to hobble around all their life rather than get a knee replaced? ...

The copay for a regular doctor's visit is not a good example of how to have the patients getting more involved. Most of the health care cost is in hospitalization, I believe.

Doctors decide on how to treat patients, but here is a national panel that decides on whether the NHS will pay for a treatment. Recently there have been some cases where an experimental cancer drug was not available on the NHS and this gets headlines. That's the deal you make for overall care for everyone. The UK populace likes that deal and the NHS is UK's political "third rail". I don't think such as system would be appropriate for the US because of it's emphasis on individualism rather than the collective good.

Yes! There are people who argue that human lives are so precious that no expenses should be spared, no experimental treatments should be denied. We can bankrupt any country that way.

On the other hand, if people want to pay out of their own pocket for any nebulous treatment, I hope that they are allowed to.

From Tadpole:
"Anyone who has not read this article from the New Yorker really should because too little of the conversation goes down to the health care delivery area:McAllen, Texas and the high cost of health care : The New Yorker"

I've been a registered nurse working in health care for over 35 years. This article reminds me of something a colleague said many, many years ago...which was "The most expensive thing in health care is the ball point pen in a physicians hand."

I can't even begin to describe the thousands of useless tests, procedures, consults and therapies I have seen prescribed. But....health care is a product, and if you go to where they sell it....they will try and force you to buy top-of-the-line, even when there is no clear advantage to your health.

Thank you, thank you for sharing this article!

It shows how the lack of top-down coordination and a nationwide policy result in such disparity in hospitalization costs between different parts of the country, and how more money spent does not result in better health care.

About "having own skin in the game", I can relate to this with my own experience. As I worked part-time at my leisure during the last year of my late father's life, I was able to spend a bit of time with him in the hospital, although not as much as my mother who was there everyday. I saw various tests done on my father, some repeatedly with ambiguous results. When I pressed the staff about what would be done if the test results were positive, they replied that nothing would be done anyway. My father's poor health would mean he would not come out of the operating room alive. And as his body was falling apart, there were some conditions that had no treatments.

My mother, being an assertive woman, wanted to be sure that no available tests or procedures would be spared, no matter how nebulous some of these were. I could tell that doctors had given up on my father, but he wanted to live, and my mother could care less about how much something cost or what little result that would bring. If the cost came out of my mother's pocket rather than Medicare, perhaps she would get a bit more involved in understanding what the tests were for.

Did the hospital do all those tests because they wanted more money, similarly to the story told by the article referenced by Tadpole? Or were they afraid of getting sued for not pursuing all avenues? I do not know the answer, but the one thing I was sure of was that many things were done to no avail.

As I loved my father, I was torn to see him put through these fruitless procedures that gave him even more discomfort. But how could someone tell a patient, particularly your loved one, that it was hopeless? People do not live forever, no matter how much money is available. I have been trying to tell my family members that beyond a certain point, money does not buy longevity. Billionaires die too, and do not necessarily live longer than us peasants.
 
DblDoc said:
As I have an obviously biased opinion I'm not going to vigorously defend US physician pay - although I would note that in my specialty I could make the same or more in Canada. In Australia or NZ I would make about a third less.

DD

Look at any study you can find and you will see that physicians in the U.S. make on average, by far, more than anywhere esle in the western world, including Canada. Anecdotes about one or another's specialities being able to command more outside the U.S. are not useful, relevent or substantial. When you run a private "for profit" healthcare system with virtually no controls on what doctors charge, you will wind up spending a lot of money and some people will die because they cannot afford any of it. That is the American healthcare system.
 
Look at any study you can find and you will see that physicians in the U.S. make on average, by far, more than anywhere esle in the western world, including Canada. Anecdotes about one or another's specialities being able to command more outside the U.S. are not useful, relevent or substantial. When you run a private "for profit" healthcare system with virtually no controls on what doctors charge, you will wind up spending a lot of money and some people will die because they cannot afford any of it. That is the American healthcare system.

Your comment reveals an incredible lack of understanding of the issues involved and how physicians are reimbursed. Did you even read the link I posted above? It is excerpted from this report to congress (http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/RL34175_20070917.pdf). I suggest you read it before posting any more inflammatory comments.

DD
 
Back
Top Bottom