Weird, Scary, Mold Monster

TromboneAl said:

The whole area seems damp, and the wood on the top is blackened. There were some very small bugs on the surface.

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About the size of a pinhead? In our vermiposting tower we call those "compost mites", and that's probably what they're doing to the wood!

Does the presence of insulation mean it's a hot water pipe? Can you pull the insulation off the pipe and look for dripping down the pipe from above? And if it's dripping, does it stop when you shut off the supply to the water heater and vent the hot water piping by opening an upstairs faucet and a downstairs one?

About the size of a pinhead? In our vermiposting tower we call those "compost mites", and that's probably what they're doing to the wood!

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Even smaller than a pinhead.

Does the presence of insulation mean it's a hot water pipe? Can you pull the insulation off the pipe and look for dripping down the pipe from above? And if it's dripping, does it stop when you shut off the supply to the water heater and vent the hot water piping by opening an upstairs faucet and a downstairs one?

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I'll try those experiments tomorrow, thanks.

I opened up more wall, and it's looking bad. The wood is quite wet, and there are wood-eating insects in residence, hopefully only the type that can eat damp wood. I'm waiting on a callback from the termite company, and the plumber is on his way.



at this point I'm guessing a slow leak on the pipe on the left, but up above the wood (i.e. upstairs). Unless the plumber can figure it out quickly, I'll pull up the carpet, and open the floor up there to take a look.

Oh dear!

I'm not understanding the framing - pipe is going through 3/4" ply subflooring, but no plates to rest the subfloor on? and is that a 2x3 stud? maybe we are looking at a thick wall cavity for a plumbing wall - pulled the insulation yet? I'm betting on a deep wall and that pipe ending up behind an unstairs sink or - AH Hah! a shower wall? could it be? What's upstairs in that location Al? I just did a fix on a leaking line at a shower valve Tuesday.

looked closer - that's a 2x6 or 2x8 plate for a wet wall i think. probably a toilet drain in the wall.

It should be clear from these pictures. I had a very successful exploration.

Here are the holes I cut in the office floor:



I drilled small holes to exactly locate the joists, then drilled a larger a hole to check the thickness of the plywood, then set the depth of the circular saw so it would just cut it, and made a rectangular hole with its edges on the joist.

That first hole was in the wrong place, but the second one was right over the pipe.



There was a pile of black cottage cheese like mold around the pipe. I put on full protective gear, and cleaned it up, and sprayed with bleach.

I couldn't see any water leaking out.

Question 1: Does the green corrosion on these pipes indicate the leak location?





Question 2: When I run the hot water, there is some water vapor that appears here (I have a movie of it if you want to see it). I assume that's just the hot pipe heating the surrounding moisture, yes?

Question 3: I'd like to dry it out. I could blow hot air in there with the hair dryer. Bad idea (blows mold spores around house)?

The good news is that this looks pretty isolated. However, it's going to cost some to have the pros remove the rotted wood and redo the pipe.

You may want to check on what kind of disclosure is required for mold damage in your state. The pro's you are calling in might be able to help with this. This would be a benefit when/if you sell the property.

I have heard people say that an inefficient vacuum cleaner blowing into a space can dry it out.

Great pictures!

The pro I contacted today said "Do NOT contact your insurance company about this."

Dang, that's great work. Congraulations.

Yes, the green marks the spot where the leak is.

You're obviously competent with tools, and you've already done the hard work. You could really finish this job yourself without much trouble.

1) Tear out all the drywall in the garage that is wet or moldy. It's a garage, after all, and when you put new drywall in place it won't matter much if the seams are a little bumpy. Once you've got the dryywall off, set up a fan and a heat lamp and get things dried out (open the garage door and let the spores outside if you are concerned about this)

2) Meanwhile, under the floor, maybe give things another shot of bleach and then let try to get it dried out. I really don't know about mold spores--my gut tells me that they are probably present in the environment anyway, and that you just want to avoid getting the concentration so high that they overwhelm your immune system). You could cut a small hole or two through the stud with a large spade bit, then put a small fan face-down over your hatch-hole--it would blow the moist air and any mold spores out into your garage.

3) Fix the pipe. Get the water out, heat up the old, leaky elbow, remove it, and sweat on a new one. Clean both ends of the pipe >very well< and use enough flux. This would take an hour at most. It looks like it failed at the connection. Buy a Watts-brand elbow with the solder already in it--I've had great luck with these, and have never had one leak.

4) You've got the drywall off in the garage. Are the studs structurally okay, or are they rotten? I'd guess they are no good--and they are probably holding up your upper kitchen cabinets, so you don't want those screws failing in some crumbly wood. Just insert a new stud or two temporarily to hold up the sill plate above it (shim it up so it is taking the load) then rip out the moldy/rotten studs. This is a good excuse to buy or rent a reciprocating saw, if you don't have one. Then replace the studs with new ones. If you want to be sure the damage is less next time, use treated wood--it will only cost a few bucks more, and it's not a bad idea in a wall containing plumbing. (Wear gloves when handling t and a dust mask when cutting it). Also, take a look and see how your upper kitchen cabinets are supported--they are probably screwed into the studs or into a separate piece of wood or a rail that goes across the top of the wall. If they are screwed into the studs you are about to remove, be sure to support the cabinets from underneath as you go about your work.

5) Wrap the pipe with new insulaton, replace the drywall in the garage, slap on some dryall mud, sand it down (a wet sponge works well in place of sandpaper) and call it a day. If you want to reduce potential for future damage, use water-resistant drywall or DenseArmor plus drywall (contains no paper).

Good luck!

copper piping

I have seen this several times in my house.
The plumber who my home contractor hired must have been half blind, or really careless. The problem is one or more poorly soldered joints. They hold up for years, but fail and leak finally, because there was only a thin film of solder at the edge of the elbow. The dead giveaway is the green corrosion around the joint.

1. It's an easy fix for a competent plumber.
2. Once it's fixed, you can probably dry stuff out (now that the spaces are open), and solve the problem.
3. (Bad) There may be more marginal joints.

My wife got up in the morning, several yrs. ago, went to the sink and shrieked "the carpet is soaking wet!!"
Our problem was worse in that the pipe itself had developed a pin hole - This was not what I'd call a slow leak - think gallons of water, not ounces.
Fixed the leak under the vanity by sawing through the base inside, luckily in the right place, and patching the pipe. Carpet and particleboard base were ruined.
Wife was so happy with the new bathroom that I had to remodel the other one too!!!

I've since found other joints that were bad, but all in the unfinished basement. Easily repaired - I know how to make a quality solder joint, unlike some plumbers.
My biggest anxiety is the pipes hidden in the walls, so we turn off the water in the house when we travel.

Good luck with your problem

TromboneAl said:

The pro I contacted today said "Do NOT contact your insurance company about this."

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California... mold.... +1

Nice tools Al - think i have the same stud sensor. Your second pic from below looking up into the plate it looks like there is a coupler hidden and just peeking out by the elbow. How deep can you push a standard screwdriver into the black wood? I'd be looking at how much structural integrity was left, maybe bridging the black wood with some plates top and bottom, Cloroxing the heck out of it, fixing the leak so it stays dry, and calling it good. Lots of elbows there making for tough soldering - seem to remember repair couplers that didn't have internal stops on them, so you could slide them all the way over one pipe and then bring them back onto the pipe you were joining.

I have read that bleach will not soak in enough to kill the "roots" of the mold. I suggest reading some more about killing mold. Chlorine Bleach Effects

You need a fungicide, like Shockwave: http://www.fiberlock.com/pds/shockwave_pds.pdf

TromboneAl said:

The pro I contacted today said "Do NOT contact your insurance company about this."

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Probably good advice.
Hope it ends well (or as best as can be expected) for you.

Martha said:

I have read that bleach will not soak in enough to kill the "roots" of the mold. I suggest reading some more about killing mold. Chlorine Bleach Effects

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bleach will cause corrosion on copper - but if the leak is gone and the wood dries out then the happy mold habitat is gone, along with the problem - or such is my thought. Looks like the mold remediation company says the same in their mold basics area:
"When excessive moisture or water accumulates indoors, mold growth often will occur, particularly if the moisture problem remains uncorrected. While it is impossible to eliminate all molds and mold spores, controlling moisture can control indoor mold growth".

Oooo! Just saw Martha's Shockwave recomendation - if you can get it it sounds like a great product.

Martha said:

I have read that bleach will not soak in enough to kill the "roots" of the mold. I suggest reading some more about killing mold. Chlorine Bleach Effects

You need a fungicide, like Shockwave: http://www.fiberlock.com/pds/shockwave_pds.pdf

Click to expand...

The info at the first link is a little misleading. I went to the EPA's web site, and it looks like they don't recommend bleach anymore or any other biocide (except for cases where immunosuppressed individuals may be exposed to the area, etc). They didn't say whether bleach would kill the roots of the mold, but it appears that they don't think it is relevant. According to their approach, you need to get rid of the surface mold/mold products/dead mold fragments, etc, address the moisture problem that allowed the mold to grow, and that is it. No more water = no mold.

I think their approach is probably a valid one, but I would still use some type of biocide (bleach/Shockwave, etc) to kill as much of the the mold as I could. It's not about science--it's about getting even.

waltwill8 said:

Our problem was worse in that the pipe itself had developed a pin hole - This was not what I'd call a slow leak - think gallons of water, not ounces.
Fixed the leak under the vanity by sawing through the base inside, luckily in the right place, and patching the pipe. Carpet and particleboard base were ruined.
Wife was so happy with the new bathroom that I had to remodel the other one too!!!

I've since found other joints that were bad, but all in the unfinished basement. Easily repaired - I know how to make a quality solder joint, unlike some plumbers.
My biggest anxiety is the pipes hidden in the walls, so we turn off the water in the house when we travel.

Good luck with your problem

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If you're having holes develop in the pipe itself it may not be the plumbers fault. Your water may be acidic or have lots of salts in it. Copper pipes should not rust just from exposure to water.

Frugality_of_Apathy said:

If you're having holes develop in the pipe itself it may not be the plumbers fault. Your water may be acidic or have lots of salts in it. Copper pipes should not rust just from exposure to water.

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The water is softened.
pH is about 7.9
Dissecting the pipes (2 instances) shows a small corroding area within a foot, or so, of a joint. I speculate that the corrosion starts from a piece of excess flux (back in the 70's, they typically used a chloride type paste flux) being flushed a ways down the pipe and lodging. After 20+ years the slow corrosion penetrates with a copper oxide plug keeping the leak intermittent and slow enough to just discolor the outside of the pipe. I found one like that in the basement. Of course, if the corrosion is in a wall, you never know until the plug gets large enough to blow out and cause damage. The same thing happens with a defective joint, which appears to be Al's problem.
I was in electronics manufacturing before retirement, and have samples of totally non-corrosive flux at home that I used to repair the pipes.

samclem said:

The info at the first link is a little misleading. I went to the EPA's web site, and it looks like they don't recommend bleach anymore or any other biocide (except for cases where immunosuppressed individuals may be exposed to the area, etc). They didn't say whether bleach would kill the roots of the mold, but it appears that they don't think it is relevant. According to their approach, you need to get rid of the surface mold/mold products/dead mold fragments, etc, address the moisture problem that allowed the mold to grow, and that is it. No more water = no mold.

I think their approach is probably a valid one, but I would still use some type of biocide (bleach/Shockwave, etc) to kill as much of the the mold as I could. It's not about science--it's about getting even.

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Thanks for the info. We are dealing with a wet basement and mold/mildew in my old family home and the contractor wants to use Shockwave. He said that the EPA doesn't recommend bleach on porous surfaces and is silent on fungicides. I'll talk to him about the EPA reference you gave.

Thanks for the tips!

The studs look AOK. The only damaged wood seems to be the two 2x6s that the pipes go through (the double top plate):



For the top one, near the pipe, I can push the screwdriver all the way through it. On the bottom one, and at points away from the leaky pipes, I can only push the screwdriver less than 1/4 inch.

These top plate 2x6s are only supporting the one joist above them. Would this scenario work?

1. Have plumber redo the elbows (I don't want my first pipe soldering to be done here).

2. Use reciprocating saw to cut out the three-foot sections of rotted top plate 2x6s. I don't think the joist will sag (famous last words?).

3. Cut slots in new 2x6s for the pipes, slide them in, and fasten them down.

Does that sound reasonable and not rinky-dink?

Al,
So the only thing resting on the doubled top plate is the joist that we see running parallel to it? If that is the case, I think an even easier/better way to get a good repair is to scab a "sister" piece of 2x6 (on edge) to the existing joist. Use a lot of nails (or screws) that go well into both pieces. This piece should be long enough to bridge the damaged area of top plate and resting on solid, undamaged top plate for about a foot on either side. (go out far enough to get to solid top plate over a solid stud). This should effectively transfer the load to the undamaged top plate/stud below. Doing thing this way avoids having to remove the old damaged top plate, cutting slots for the pipe (which will weaken it). The resulting doubled 2x6 joist area will be very stiff and strong.

If this suggestion is unacceptable (maybe because you can't get access to the area to nail in a sister) then your approach of removing/replacing the damaged part of the top-top plate would work well, too.

sorry, T-Al, sounding rinky-dink.

If you cut out the top plates, you need to build a temporary supporting wall for the joists it supports. You are risking some drooping and nails pulling or worse if you don't. Nothing fancy, just a few 2x4s and a cross piece screwed together.

I'm not sure you can slot the top plate like that. I know there are limits on hole sizes and how close they are to the edge on a joist, not sure about top plates though.

Idea: what about sweating a copper-to-PEX connector on where you have better access, and then running PEX through the tricky areas? Just two sweat joints , or even easier - it looks like you can get those "sharkbite" connectors (which I learned about here in that "replace this water heater" thread).

add - I see samclem's post now; I had trouble telling from the pics, but yes, sistering in a good joist can work well too. I might be a little nervous about that though - would the rot from the existing board transfer and tend to rot the new one? I suppose once everything is dry, that is not a threat?

-ERD50

So the only thing resting on the doubled top plate is the joist that we see running parallel to it?

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Yes.

That sistering is a great suggestion, and could work well. It's the last 29 inches of the top plate that is rotted, so I'd sister the joist, and rest it on the top plate of the exterior wall (that is, the top plate that is at right angles to the damaged section). I'd have easy access from the garage side. Why not use a full 2x10 to sister -- overkill?

I don't like having that rotted wood there, even if it dries out. Once I do the sistering, there's no reason not to take out the top plate, right?

Thanks, guys!

TromboneAl said:

Why not use a full 2x10 to sister -- overkill?

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Nope, I just thought the joist was only a nominal 6". You might as well use as wide a board as will fit against the joist

TromboneAl said:

I don't like having that rotted wood there, even if it dries out. Once I do the sistering, there's no reason not to take out the top plate, right?

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Sure, there's no harm in taking it out. If you do, then a little "belt and suspenders" insurance would be to slip in and shim a small piece of 2 x 4 in place of the removed top plate section directly over each of the lower studs. This provides a load path from the joist (with its new sister'ed piece) through the scrap 2 x 4, through the intact lower top plate and down through the stud. This isn't really required, but why not do it anyway since it is easy and you're removing the piece of rotted wood anyway.
Best of luck Thanks for the pictures, it made it really easy to figure out what you were doing.

There is a really cool collection of slime mold photos at this site. It takes a minute to load but is well worth it, here's a sample: