Why were so many smart members of FIRE so clueless about their careers?

[HFWR]

Cubes are where the people who work for me work. Offices with windows are where people like me work. Corner offices with windows are where my bosses work.

We use offices as incentives. As in, "Hey Mikey, if you can produce 7% more TPS reports this year, we will move you from that cube near the shitter to the cube a little bit less near the shitter".

And then if he meets that goal, we might set another one like "Hey Mikey, if you can reduce errors in your TPS reports by 3% this year, we'll move you from that slightly-less-near-the-shitter cube you got rewarded with last year, to this waaay better (although equidistant from the shitter) cube that gets a faint whiff of natural light from my window laden office".

And then if he meets that goal, we might set another one like "Hey Mikey, if you can properly staple 100% of your TPS reports this year (staples in upper left, oriented no more than 10 degrees off the vertical alignment) we'll move you to a real live office. I mean, let's face it, it is still really close to the shitter, and there are no windows, but on the bright side, we will securely cover the sign on your door reading 'CUSTODIAN CLOSET' with a temporary sign (printed on 8.5x11 paper) with your name on it. You will have your name on an office door."

That's how the office space hierarchy works in some joints. With the caveat that the CEO or some other uppity up can always trump your middle management ways by taking your sweet less-near-the-shitter cubes and putting their own people in them, thereby displacing your own (hard working) people into some ethereal work-place displaced refugee status with not even a stinky cube to call their own.

In my 25 years at megaconglomocorp, I sat in hallways, conference rooms, closets, and cubes, and even had a highwall office with a door for a while, right before they laid me off the first time...

There was even talk for a while that techs didn't really need offices or computers...

 

[jime444]

excellent question, one I've personally asked myself for years, actually. Read all of the responses and I think Onward's response truly nailed it.
I spent 6 yrs in school, working towards degree(s), I thought were so very sought after, financial independence, just a job or two away. Surprise. By the time I graduated, (Jimmy Carter, remember him?) the industry I earmarked was in a shambles. It did rebound; however has been outsourced since the early 90's. Personally, I should have known better; but, didn't have good mentors and received little guidance from our so-called education system. So, young and dumb, I ventured blindly into the workplace. Being the headstrong, independent knucklehead I am (and was even then), it took me 8-10 years and 3 jobs to figure out it was basically all the same. Finally, ended up in a decent situation, at a growing organization that actually valued their employees. It did change later, hostile takeover; but, it started me on the heavy investment/RE focus. Since that time, it's been our mantra. And now, as the career is winding down, I have few regrets and try and mentor my co-workers, peers and reports on the value of LBYM and investing a significant portion of their pay. Some listen, some don't. I think its a very important part of my job and I wish someone would have done it for me. Though, I probably wouldn't have listened, eh?..............

 

[Ozstache]

2. Work isn't about work. It's mostly about dealing with difficult, and sometimes seriously deranged or vindictive people. Being a teacher isn't about teaching. It's mostly about dealing with difficult students, parents, and admins. Being a dentist isn't about dentistry. It's mostly about dealing with difficult patients, employees, and insurance companies.

I agree with everything you posted, but especially this. I characterise my main role in the job I just retired from to be an unfudger (putting it politely!) ie. getting people to do the simple things they know they were supposed to do in the first place instead of them putting more effort into avoiding doing them. It was a game that I tolerated for many years, but when I hit FI this year it became very unfunny very quickly. The rest is my ER history

 

[RetiredAndFree]

It's a funny thing about working - you love it for a long time, at least I did, and then one day you discover you really don't love it quite so much anymore.

How nice, if and when that occurs, to have achieved FI so that one can move in an entirely different direction . . . like ER.

I'm still as engaged in life as when I worked, I'm just engaged doing different things. And without those agonizing, annual self-evaluations, hallelujah!

 

[NW-Bound]

Hmm... How did I miss this interesting thread, and have not participated in? Oh, I was absent for a while.

Anyway, same as many people here, I actually liked what I was doing. I even enjoyed school, if anyone could believe that. I was able to choose what I wanted to learn; how do you beat that? I do not understand how people can chose an education or career that they did not like. It would be like torture for me.

And then, when I went to work at different megacorps, they did different things, and in different ways, and there were more for me to learn. It was when I learned enough that I became an expert in a particular field, not just at the megacorp but in the industry, I started to get bored, and had time to observe the clueless management.

Then, I got this thinking that since I was so smart, I could join with some like-minded friends to start our own company. So, I helped starting two different companies, with two different groups. We made good money for a while. Darn, we were good, and so smart!

And then, when the money was good, competitions moved in. Guys came out of nowhere. Hey, it's not fair! Some were not as smart, we didn't think, but they had deep, deep pockets, as they were backed by megacorps. Ughh...

That started our demise. So, after working for free for a few years trying to save our company, I gave up and became an independent contractor and freelancer. Did that for about 10 years, working when there was interesting work to be done (I would not just take any job).

I still miss designing "things" for people. I have done things for myself, but when you do it for somebody for hire, you have to meet certain requirements that are agreed in advance. When I do things just for fun, I tend to be sloppy. I said "things" because some of my better works were not really things, but analytical works (software, algorithms, procedures, failure analysis, etc...). I was fortunate to get to do many different things over my career, some not at all related though all were in engineering. I loved it when I was doing it.


PS. I forgot to answer the OP's question. No, I don't think I was clueless about my career. But my technical friends and I did not have the business acumen that was needed to maintain the initial success.

 

[Chuckanut]

I don't think the FIRE'd people are clueless. On the contrary, they did what so many people in a tough spot did, they made the right decisions that were best for them and their loved ones. Yes, there was some suffering. Other than the Garden of Eden (which has been closed for a long time), I know of no place in the world without suffering.

 

[Chuckanut]

- The fact that the times I have been happiest are when I ahve been outdoors. Being stuck in a cube has become agony.

You have a brewery in the woods??

 

[chief04010]

26 years ago I loved my job, I even liked and enjoyed it 10 years ago, but like many on here I think now it is time to move on so in 4 years, after working at the same job for 30 years, I'll move into the FIRE phase of my life.

 

[brewer12345]

You have a brewery in the woods??

I believe it is a still that would traditionally be in the woods, and I don't distil due to legal issues.

Actually, I do my brewing in the backyard which I would describe as park-like. In colder weather I have the fire pit going. Last weekend when I brewed I was also cutting and splitting about a cord of maple I snagged from a tree being cu down in the neighborhood.

 

[MRG]

I believe it is a still that would traditionally be in the woods, and I don't distil due to legal issues.

Actually, I do my brewing in the backyard which I would describe as park-like. In colder weather I have the fire pit going. Last weekend when I brewed I was also cutting and splitting about a cord of maple I snagged from a tree being cu down in the neighborhood.

I agree would much rather be in the woods than a cube. Really have fond memories of walking timber etc.

There are states where its legal to still, but for personal use only. This state allows 200 gallons per person!

MRG

 

[urn2bfree]

I think that assuming that people are "clueless" in these circumstances is jumping to conclusions. Times change. Circumstances change. Attitudes change.

There is a quote often attributed to John Maynard Keynes, but probably not his and maybe originated with economist Paul Samuelson that is something like-

"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

I think that quote applies to people deciding that their careers should end as well.

 

[foxfirev5]

Like some others I missed this post the first time around. The tone suggests that you have screwed up somehow to end up being in this FIRE community. There are lot's of things that happen over the course of time. When I started at Megacorp years ago the deal was that at age 55 you would get a pension along with what your put into the compliment thrift plan savings with a decent match. The math worked and I jumped onboard. (by the way this convinced me to bypass a Gov't job with similar bennies but less growth potential - silly me).

Fast forward 14 years and the pension is frozen and everybody is fighting for their job. No problem. I'm young enough and this will work out. 15 years later it's 2009 and your reapplying for the same job you've held for 10 years. Always had great reviews but that doesn't matter.

Fortunately I've always worked in the field and never been a cubicle rat (no insult intended). I can't say I've done anything wrong and I won't let anybody get me down. I view this forum as two phases - FI and RE. I'm at FI and will RE when I want to, strictly on my terms

 

[48Fire]

I wanted to retire early when I graduated from high school. When I went to college guidance counselor, he suggested engineering since I was very good at math. Since it paid well, I did it, but never was passionate about it like some of my co-workers. It was just a nice paycheck. So essentially, nothing changed in 35 years, just my ability to cope.

 

[Ozstache]

I found that I had about a 10 year attention span with careers that sparked my interest. First up was electronics technician, then software engineering and finally project management before I ERed. At the end of those 10 year spans, I had become a victim of my success by being propelled into management, which basically killed the passion. When I was a junior project engineer, I used to observe the project managers and wondered if their jobs were as frustrating as they looked. Unfortunately, my foresight was spot on!

 

[ERD50]

...
There are states where its legal to still, but for personal use only. This state allows 200 gallons per person!

MRG

Better check your laws before you decide to take any action on that. I'm quite certain that it is illegal to distill alcohol w/o the proper Federal license.

It is legal in all states to brew beer or make wine, up to 200 gallons per household, 100 gal if only one adult (some states might have tighter restrictions?). Distillation is a whole 'nother matter.

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

Whatever the law is regarding alcohol production, BATF is the agency that enforces it.

And they can be very, er, forceful from what I have read. Better be careful!

 

[Dawg52]

Something went south. A lot of you folks obviously studied hard, made all kinds of sacrifices, maybe even went to graduate school so you could work in your chosen profession. And, now, many of you are counting the days, months, years, or decades looking for the time you can quit the job you hate. Now, I understand that many of you just want to retire early to get on with your lives, but what about the others of you? What happened? What didn’t you account for?
(Ah, duck, is this any way to make friends)?
And, maybe more importantly, how did I make this post green?

It's asking a lot for teenagers to make life long career decisions. And that is what many do when choosing a degree to pursue in college. Once you have that, it's not so easy to pursue a career not related to your college education. Many are stuck by decisions made early in life. That's not clueless imo.

 

[MRG]

Better check your laws before you decide to take any action on that. I'm quite certain that it is illegal to distill alcohol w/o the proper Federal license.

It is legal in all states to brew beer or make wine, up to 200 gallons per household, 100 gal if only one adult (some states might have tighter restrictions?). Distillation is a whole 'nother matter.

-ERD50

I stand corrected, the federal law overrides the state. Missouri law says its legal but the feds override it. Much like some other states that say you can do certain things that are illegal at the federal level.

Really wasn't planning on acting on distilling, thought was what would one do with 200 gallons per year?


Understanding the Law

MRG

 

[seraphim]

It's asking a lot for teenagers to make life long career decisions. And that is what many do when choosing a degree to pursue in college. Once you have that, it's not so easy to pursue a career not related to your college education. Many are stuck by decisions made early in life. That's not clueless imo.

Yep. I just recently retired, and I'm still not sure what I want to do when I grow up.

 

[rockyj]

Something went south. ... What happened? What didn’t you account for?

Stuff happens - much of which can't be anticipated. Things can go gradually and unpredictably south despite having started down an otherwise interesting and rewarding path, and despite having continued good intentions. Company reorgs, new tasks, new taskmasters, new layers of reporting, compliance routines, etc. Some change can be positive or at least re-framed to offer new opportunities for growth. Some not so much. Sometimes work just loses it's freshness over the years and it feels like time for something new. In the end, you may find yourself far enough along a path that making a severe course correction, as in taking a major step back to move to a new career, or perhaps throwing away soon to vest retirement benefits, would be foolish. If you find yourself in that situation, you stick it out, do your best to continue to contribute and survive as you can, while keeping an eye on the prize until the golden handcuffs come off. It has less to do with being clueless than with moving through life and playing the cards your dealt as best you can.

 

[ERD50]

I stand corrected, the federal law overrides the state. Missouri law says its legal but the feds override it. Much like some other states that say you can do certain things that are illegal at the federal level.

Really wasn't planning on acting on distilling, thought was what would one do with 200 gallons per year?


Understanding the Law

MRG

Interesting, I didn't know that some states 'legalized' it (if you an call it that since fed law trumps state law, as you point out).

But yes, what the heck would you do with 100 or 200 gallons of high-proof alcohol! I have had a sip of the illegal stuff. No big deal, I can't really see much point in sipping straight distilled alcohol, but it wasn't bad at all. For me, it was just the curiosity, and I think also for the guy who made it. I think he made a mason jar amount.

A not-so-funny story on one of the home brewing forums - A guy said some cops were asking questions when they saw him brewing beer in his driveway. Many home brewers use a copper coil that they run tap water through to cool their beer after the boil, to bring it to the right temperature for the yeast to go to work (technically, it is still called 'wort' at this point). The copper coil is known as an immersion chiller. Well, these cops saw 'copper coil', and had some training to know those are used in distilling. So they were threatening to arrest this guy for illegal distilling.

IIRC, he managed to talk his way out of it, but it could be scary.


-ERD50

 

[razztazz]

I wanted to retire early when I graduated from high school. When I went to college guidance counselor, he suggested engineering since I was very good at math. Since it paid well, I did it, but never was passionate about it like some of my co-workers. It was just a nice paycheck. So essentially, nothing changed in 35 years, just my ability to cope.

This is so true. I never wanted to "BE" anything career-wise. (Besides opera singer but I put that in the category of "cowboy" and "Batman" and got serious) I just worked because I had to and it's the only way to get enough money to retire. "Passionate" I was not except maybe in the beginning when you're just pushing Life's buttons and it's all fun. There was no career to eff-up and nothing to be clueless about. I knew exactly what I wanted and exactly what I was doing

 

[Bestwifeever]

I thought of this thread when I saw an excerpt from this article by Scott Adams:

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304626104579121813075903866

Success begets passion (not the other way around), goals breed failure, and luck is very important but you need to keep moving around til luck finds you.

 

[Amethyst]

None of my passions would have earned me a living, but my living has allowed me to pursue my passions as hobbies!

Amethyst

 

[rescueme]

None of my passions would have earned me a living, but my living has allowed me to pursue my passions as hobbies!

Amethyst

Well said...

I never had a career but I aways had a job. Earning money was my focus during my accumulation years, which allowed me to retire earlier than most and lets me live as I wish - not as I have to, in retirement.