another gloomy retirement article

haha said:
People just love to bitch. There is one of these a couple blocks from my building. View of the Bay, AC, lots of company, no smoking allowed, no chance to get lonesome. I happen to know that living there is way better in some ways and easier than almost any suburban retirement. Transportation is at the door, a concierge will receive your packages. Trader Joe a few blocks. One can even have pets with some rules.
Ha
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Can I get on the waiting list? If there a bus to get me to North Beach Im good.:D
 
Here's the solution

1. Teach finance in 1st grade and make it required until graduation from high school.

2. Teach the truth starting in 1st grade about cheap processed food and what it does to your body. Fast food too. We have an obesity and diabetes epidemic in this country. No wonder health care is in trouble and we all have to pay for it.

3. Teach in 1st grade, the importance of useable, sustainable, products. Stretch the use of clothes, cars, electronics, gadgets, furniture...on and on. We are a throw away society and it's got to stop. Stretch that damn dollar as far as you can. Compound interest should be understood by every citizen in this country.
 
As a 'Gen X' person I sometimes feel like I straddle two major demographic forces in my world; the Boomers and the Millennials. This is one of those times! It's like having one foot in each of two very different worlds, where I don't really belong in either.

This forum thread has exploded with Boomers (I'm guessing here, but feel pretty sure about it..) wringing their hands about poor old people who live in an RV while doing low skilled work to make ends meet. It's complete with the sort of condescending lecture about life choices.

A couple of browser tabs over I'm going through the Instagram / Twitter / Pinterest / Facebook feeds related to #Vanlife (Google it if you're not familiar). Here I find endless stories about millennials who have sold all of their stuff, quit their high paid jobs, and now live in a van and do menial work to make ends meet. The reaction couldn't be more different. These people are praised for their courage to stand up to the evil consumer culture and live their true life's purpose. Live simply, etc..

Anyway, I don't really relate with either side. I do LOVE living my my VW campervan at every opportunity I have to get away. The situation is no different out on the road. RV parks full of boomers with massive rigs designed so they can stay comfortably inside away from the outside world or 'pirate camps' full of millennials with a few homeless people mixed in there that are a bit too close for my taste...
 
Re: teaching financial literacy

When I was in high school our physics teacher became ill and had to leave for a while. The football coach was appointed as temporary. He came in and said, "boys (we were all boys, alas), I know nothing about physics; but I can teach you about life."

There began six weeks of instruction on how to balance a checkbook, organize a funeral, calculate a mortgage, and every other form of practical task that, in hindsight, has benefited me far more than learning about relativity (which I avidly learned about later in university).

Also, we got to shoot lasers around the room like fools with his blessing (he didn't understand them). Lucky no one lost an eye. In the decade after Sputnik the US government handed out low powered lasers to schools around the US, among a whole slew of science equipment in an effort to "catch up". The football team did well, however! :)

-BB
 
At one time in my life, I was a nuclear engineer, so I have knowledge of and an appreciation for advanced mathematics. But I think what would do the most good for the most people would be to make sure they really master eighth grade math -- fractions, percents, exponents, multiplication, division and such. Maybe the ability to solve the most basic algebraic equations. If it takes teaching that for five years to some kids, the schools should do it. You can manage almost all of your finances on just that knowledge alone.
 
Our physics class (50% girls) would have loved the substitute teaching us financial literacy. I wish somebody had taught it. Ah well, it probably belonged in math or social studies class, and there probably was no time for it.

I always thought it was weird that the school system taught us analytic geometry and calculus, but not about balancing a checkbook, let alone how a mutual fund works. Alas, even smart students don't automatically know these things.

Bryan Barnfellow said:
Re: teaching financial literacy

When I was in high school our physics teacher became ill and had to leave for a while. The football coach was appointed as temporary. He came in and said, "boys (we were all boys, alas), I know nothing about physics; but I can teach you about life."

There began six weeks of instruction on how to balance a checkbook, organize a funeral, calculate a mortgage, and every other form of practical task that, in hindsight, has benefited me far more than learning about relativity (which I avidly learned about later in university).

Also, we got to shoot lasers around the room like fools with his blessing (he didn't understand them). Lucky no one lost an eye. In the decade after Sputnik the US government handed out low powered lasers to schools around the US, among a whole slew of science equipment in an effort to "catch up". The football team did well, however! :)

-BB
Click to expand...
 
Bryan Barnfellow said:
Re: teaching financial literacy

When I was in high school our physics teacher became ill and had to leave for a while. The football coach was appointed as temporary. He came in and said, "boys (we were all boys, alas), I know nothing about physics; but I can teach you about life."

There began six weeks of instruction on how to balance a checkbook, organize a funeral, calculate a mortgage, and every other form of practical task that, in hindsight, has benefited me far more than learning about relativity (which I avidly learned about later in university).

Also, we got to shoot lasers around the room like fools with his blessing (he didn't understand them). Lucky no one lost an eye. In the decade after Sputnik the US government handed out low powered lasers to schools around the US, among a whole slew of science equipment in an effort to "catch up". The football team did well, however! :)

-BB
Click to expand...

Actually way back in the mid 1960s before the new math this was taught in 8th grade arithmetic. They even got to compound interest all be it the repetitive computation way, since logarithms/exponentials were not discussed at that level.

I remember back then the IRS had kits teachers could use to show how to do a tax form.

But of course with the new math such things do not fit within the alloted time. But IMHO if you invented a modern Home Ec class (not for girls only like way back when) this would be a part of the course i.e. budgeting etc.
I have read that some guys don't know how to use a clothes washer, all be it there are things like instruction manuals.
But I guess it is unmanly to read the directions, better to do just trial and error as many on youtube do.
 
Amethyst said:
Our physics class (50% girls) would have loved the substitute teaching us financial literacy. I wish somebody had taught it. Ah well, it probably belonged in math or social studies class, and there probably was no time for it.

I always thought it was weird that the school system taught us analytic geometry and calculus, but not about balancing a checkbook, let alone how a mutual fund works. Alas, even smart students don't automatically know these things.
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On mutual funds it depends on the era one went to school, in the 1960s they were not so big, perhaps in a few years you would teach etf's instead.
 
I thought it was pretty sad. My wife and I make very good $$$ and save ALOT (no kids), but I'm cognizant that there are folks who have children and perhaps no education and just can't salt it away like most of the folks on this board. It cost nothing to show some sympathy, you just never know how things may turn out.
 
Tetto said:
I thought it was pretty sad. My wife and I make very good $$$ and save ALOT (no kids), but I'm cognizant that there are folks who have children and perhaps no education and just can't salt it away like most of the folks on this board. It cost nothing to show some sympathy, you just never know how things may turn out.
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+1.
 
I sometimes wonder how I came to be financially literate. I certainly never learned it in a formal way. I was intelligent, excelled in school, and thus stayed in school until I was 30, graduating with a Ph.D. in the humanities and no savings whatsoever. Although making $23,000 my first teaching year in 1988, I bought a house and started to save and live frugally. Now at 60, while still working, I'm just starting to spend a bit more and looking forward to a comfortable retirement in a few years. Although along the way there have been some lean times I'm proud to say I never once couldn't or didn't pay a bill. I credit part of my financial success simply to being organized: if I know a bill for something is coming, I cut back on other things.
I've never had a huge salary and I've managed well. I think I'm just conscientious and careful. I've also never been into status things like expensive cars, clothes, etc. That sure helps. I think I'm the classic "millionaire next door" person.
 
Tetto said:
I thought it was pretty sad. My wife and I make very good $$$ and save ALOT (no kids), but I'm cognizant that there are folks who have children and perhaps no education and just can't salt it away like most of the folks on this board. It cost nothing to show some sympathy, you just never know how things may turn out.
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This doesn't really describe the people profiled in the story.

One couple owed a couple of businesses. Another let her employer "manage" her 401k into non-existence.

I have tons of sympathy for those who are truly poor and uneducated. That includes half my family on my mother's side.

I have zero sympathy for people who have income streams and the awareness that they need to plan for retirement but choose to prioritize vacations, cars, gadgets, etc over educating themselves in personal finance at at least a minimal level and then sock money away.

I don't want to finance other capable peoples' poor decisions. Though, if course, it's not my choice other than via my vote.
 
kite_rider said:
As a 'Gen X' person I sometimes feel like I straddle two major demographic forces in my world; the Boomers and the Millennials. This is one of those times! It's like having one foot in each of two very different worlds, where I don't really belong in either.

This forum thread has exploded with Boomers (I'm guessing here, but feel pretty sure about it..) wringing their hands about poor old people who live in an RV while doing low skilled work to make ends meet. It's complete with the sort of condescending lecture about life choices.

A couple of browser tabs over I'm going through the Instagram / Twitter / Pinterest / Facebook feeds related to #Vanlife (Google it if you're not familiar). Here I find endless stories about millennials who have sold all of their stuff, quit their high paid jobs, and now live in a van and do menial work to make ends meet. The reaction couldn't be more different. These people are praised for their courage to stand up to the evil consumer culture and live their true life's purpose. Live simply, etc..

Anyway, I don't really relate with either side. I do LOVE living my my VW campervan at every opportunity I have to get away. The situation is no different out on the road. RV parks full of boomers with massive rigs designed so they can stay comfortably inside away from the outside world or 'pirate camps' full of millennials with a few homeless people mixed in there that are a bit too close for my taste...
Click to expand...
+1 Us Gen-X'ers have always lived in the shadows of the Boomers. It gets old, no pun intended.
 
Tetto said:
I thought it was pretty sad. My wife and I make very good $$$ and save ALOT (no kids), but I'm cognizant that there are folks who have children and perhaps no education and just can't salt it away like most of the folks on this board. It cost nothing to show some sympathy, you just never know how things may turn out.
Click to expand...
+1
 
AnIntentionalRoad said:
This doesn't really describe the people profiled in the story.

One couple owed a couple of businesses. Another let her employer "manage" her 401k into non-existence.

I have tons of sympathy for those who are truly poor and uneducated. That includes half my family on my mother's side.

I have zero sympathy for people who have income streams and the awareness that they need to plan for retirement but choose to prioritize vacations, cars, gadgets, etc over educating themselves in personal finance at at least a minimal level and then sock money away.

I don't want to finance other capable peoples' poor decisions. Though, if course, it's not my choice other than via my vote.
Click to expand...

I have a soft spot for seniors; at that late age is kind of useless to point out what they should have done. For whatever reason it didn't work out for them, so they get no sympathy from you. Screw them right? I learned, unfortunately later in life, to not judge others. I'm not always successful, but I try pretty damn hard.
 
Gumby said:
At one time in my life, I was a nuclear engineer, so I have knowledge of and an appreciation for advanced mathematics. But I think what would do the most good for the most people would be to make sure they really master eighth grade math -- fractions, percents, exponents, multiplication, division and such. Maybe the ability to solve the most basic algebraic equations. If it takes teaching that for five years to some kids, the schools should do it. You can manage almost all of your finances on just that knowledge alone.
Click to expand...

At our grade school we got into 'new math' early on (3rd, 4th grade...early 60's). The problem was that fractions, percents, manual long division etc were never taught to us; just a bunch of nonsensical 'n=x' crap.

After several years, they abandoned it and went back to regular math but a few years before and after my class never got basic arithmetic. I remember in senior high a teacher said "you're supposed to know all this!" We all sat there and said that this was the first time we heard of adding fractions, long division etc.

Thank God calculators and Excel came along! I'd be so screwed.
 
The Golden Age of Pensions?

I do know many folks of my parents generation that earned DB pensions that met nearly all of their retirement needs, but that was not typical:

https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1985/12/art5full.pdf
Summary:Benefit formulas in medium and large firms gave 30-year employees retiring on Jan. 1, 1984, at age 65 average monthly pensions of $385 for those who earned $15,000 during 1983.
 
Amethyst said:
I always thought it was weird that the school system taught us analytic geometry and calculus, but not about balancing a checkbook, let alone how a mutual fund works. Alas, even smart students don't automatically know these things.
Click to expand...

When I was in In Junior High (some of you may call it "middle school" where you grew or lie) in the early 70s, they still taught a class on "Home Economics". It covered everything from understanding savings account and checkbooks to cooking to sewing to typing. It was a required class for both boys and girls.

It focused on the basics but it helped lay a foundation for managing a household (I was doubly fortunate in that my parents also taught me and my siblings many of these things). I think the class was removed as minds greater than mine felt it "reinforced stereotypes". Something along the lines of those who did well in the class might feel that homemaker or servant was their only option in life. :facepalm:
 
AnIntentionalRoad said:
+1 Us Gen-X'ers have always lived in the shadows of the Boomers. It gets old, no pun intended.
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Wait a few years, while most of your Gen-X friends are still working, when the "van people" start complaining and ask you more mature folk to support them. That will get old too. :)

As a 1963-er, I kind of understand this being in the middle thing. Most of the things the Boomers speak of I vaguely remember, but was not part of. The best examples are Woodstock and Vietnam war. At the same time, I have a hard time identifying strongly with Gen-X. Although I watched Reality Bites and listened to Nirvana, I was a little bit old for it to strongly resonate. I don't get mad about it, though, I learn from the stupidity of those boomers ahead.

My BIL2 is such a case. He was your typical BMOC. Owned businesses, always drove a Cadillac. He retired early! About 50, yeah!

And then he p*ssed it away with gambling and stupid investments (a well known franchise in a bad location). The gambling*, smoking and drinking were pretty big factors. So, he finds himself with very little, stumbling into the ER on his 65th birthday for the heart operation.

To his credit, he doesn't whine, but he's had to completely flip his lifestyle because of choices. Am I "condescending" about his early choices? Yes I am. None of this was an accident.

* - Hard core gambling is a terrible early retirement activity. Just sayin'
 
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JoeWras said:
Wait a few years, while most of your Gen-X friends are still working, when the "van people" start complaining and ask you more mature folk to support them. That will get old too. :)

As a 1963-er, I kind of understand this being in the middle thing. Most of the things the Boomers speak of I vaguely remember, but was not part of. The best examples are Woodstock and Vietnam war. At the same time, I have a hard time identifying strongly with Gen-X. Although I watched Reality Bites and listened to Nirvana, I was a little bit old for it to strongly resonate. I don't get mad about it, though, I learn from the stupidity of those boomers ahead.
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As a fellow 1963-er, I may be technically a Boomer, but I have always considered myself a Gen-Xer for many reasons besides the ones you stated. Start with the term "Boomer" which was shortened from the more descriptive term, "Post-War Baby Boom(er)" describing the years following WWII in which lots and lots of babies were born when all the soldiers came home after the war, got married, and started families. My dad was born in 1931, not old enough to have served in WWII, so I can't be part of that large cohort. I have a younger brother, born in 1968, who is surely a Gen-Xer. My earliest memories do not include Woodstock, the Beatles, and the Vietnam War. Instead, they include more of the Gen-X events such as Watergate, gas lines, disco, the end of the Vietnam War, and Stagflation.
 
I got a chance to look at the VanLife video. Pretty good. What strikes me is this movement seems to be very 60's.

That got me thinking. I wonder what the early stories of these retirees in the article are? My cousin was a flower child living out of a van. She became a business woman and retired at 45! Now that's a sample size of one, but it goes against what the traditional thought would be on her scenario. When I think about it, she went pretty quickly from acid trips to managing her retirement portfolio.
 
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On the subject of teachable "stuff" in primary education, one are that I *think* would still have value would be typing and I say this from my recent experience in law school. For those unaware, the way most law school classes work is that you get one exam at the end of a course that counts 100% for the grade. Most of these exams are type writing essay-type exams. In many of these courses, there is a LOT to discuss and I have found that I will run out of time before I can get all these thoughts typed out. Mind you, I am a fairly quick typist, but I certainly could be faster. I have seen countless questions from folks that have asked, "How can I prepare for law school?" and the answers are quite varied, but I have yet to see anyone but myself offer the advice of taking a typing class.

My grades have been decent, but I am *not* looking to be a lawyer or trying to get the [-]best "biglaw"[/-] any j*b so how great my grades are isn't that important. BUT...for those youngin's that are going $100,000 or more in debt to pay for law school for a career that is putting out 2 grads for every 1 job, then I think being able to type out an answer QUICKLY would be a worthy effort.
 
JoeWras said:
I got a chance to look at the VanLife video. Pretty good. What strikes me is this movement seems to be very 60's.

That got me thinking. I wonder what the early stories of these retirees in the article are? My cousin was a flower child living out of a van. She became a business woman and retired at 45! Now that's a sample size of one, but it goes against what the traditional thought would be on her scenario. When I think about it, she went pretty quickly from acid trips to managing her retirement portfolio.
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My mother was born in the 50's and is solidly a Boomer. She is also the eternal flower-child. Her entire life, she has lived the minimal life that today's millennials strive for. Granted, she is still working and will rely on SS to pay the bills, but she has run so lean that she will be able to make that money stretch a long way. I would also say that she has had an enjoyable life and is pretty content.
 
"Half of the U.S. Population has an Intelligence Quotient of 100 or below."

Well, duh. that's the average IQ. Half the population is above and half below - and it will always be that way. And no matter how many people are really smart or how many really aren't, the number 100 will always be the average intelligence. It's not an absolute measure of intelligence, just where you stand in relation to the rest of the population.

The higher your IQ, all things being equal, the better chance of being successful in life, barring any physical issues. Doctors are usually near the top of the IQ curve, yet I know several with no financial knowledge who have lost large amounts of money through ill advised investments. Some are still working in their late 70s. Not necessarily because they love their jobs (though some of them do), but because they live a lifestyle and requires a steady income, which they will lose if they retire. And they are the antithesis of LBYMers.

Saving for retirement is a learned habit. Not everyone learns the habit until it's too late.
 
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