Why not drive a Tesla?

[midwestguy]

I rarely use superchargers unless i am on a long road trip which is maybe a couple times per year. My daughter has had her model 3 for 6 months and has never been to a supercharger. She doesnt see the point. It she is going somewhere far she flys

 

[eroscott]

The landscape is changing quickly in California. There are Model 3’s everywhere. But supercharging is no longer free, and they are charging for standby time if you let the car sit around in the bay after you finish charging, so that has been helping to keep the charging bays available. But if Tesla keeps selling thousands of Model 3’s every month it may overwhelm the system. We will have to see how much sales slow down as the tax incentives wind down.

True about CA but they seem to have the most construction cones (currently building).

Note that Tesla 'idle' fees are documented in below link AND they are currently $0.50/min or $1/min if chargers are 100% full.
https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/support/supercharger-idle-fee

https://supercharge.info/map

 

[Texas Proud]

I just did a test from Houston to Grand Canyon which DW and DD will take during spring break...


One section on the shortest route requires that the max speed is 90kph with is 55... I can't drive 55!!! A good song BTW....


Also you end up with 10% of a charge... not sure if you can get a charge there or not...

 

[eroscott]

I just did a test from Houston to Grand Canyon which DW and DD will take during spring break...
One section on the shortest route requires that the max speed is 90kph with is 55... I can't drive 55!!! A good song BTW....
Also you end up with 10% of a charge... not sure if you can get a charge there or not...

FYI arriving at 10% is no big deal at all actually. I've done it many times. The car keeps on top of you and you can even watch an expected vs actually chart of your charge. It will warn you if you need to slow down at all. Most of my roadtrips I'm driving 10 MPH over the speedlimit and keeping with the flow of the traffic.

Tesla tends to put more Superchargers in friendlier states and Texas is super unfriendly with sales and service. Keep the dealers associations happy and oil tycoons rich.

Tesla has made progress in Texas tho ... a fairly large state ... they need some more North-South Superchargers vs folks passing thru (West-East)

 

[aaronc879]

The landscape is changing quickly in California. There are Model 3’s everywhere. But supercharging is no longer free, and they are charging for standby time if you let the car sit around in the bay after you finish charging, so that has been helping to keep the charging bays available. But if Tesla keeps selling thousands of Model 3’s every month it may overwhelm the system. We will have to see how much sales slow down as the tax incentives wind down.

Tax incentive is another reason for many not to buy a Tesla. A $7500 credit is advertised everywhere but you don't get a $7500 credit unless you pay at least $7500 in federal tax. That requires an income of well over the national average. Majority of people won't get that much of a credit.

 

[Ready]

Tax incentive is another reason for many not to buy a Tesla. A $7500 credit is advertised everywhere but you don't get a $7500 credit unless you pay at least $7500 in federal tax. That requires an income of well over the national average. Majority of people won't get that much of a credit.

Well, in this forum we may have a lot of early retirees who have FIREd but have a relatively small amount of income because they have not begun collecting SS or pensions and have relatively efficient index funds for their investments.

But for the general population, given that a Model 3 cost a minimum of about $60K after sales tax and fees, it would seem reasonable that the majority of people who can afford such an expensive car should owe at least $7,500 in federal taxes. These are luxury cars. They are not being marketed to someone looking to buy a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord.

 

[eroscott]

Well, in this forum we may have a lot of early retirees who have FIREd but have a relatively small amount of income because they have not begun collecting SS or pensions and have relatively efficient index funds for their investments.

But for the general population, given that a Model 3 cost a minimum of about $60K after sales tax and fees, it would seem reasonable that the majority of people who can afford such an expensive car should owe at least $7,500 in federal taxes. These are luxury cars. They are not being marketed to someone looking to buy a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord.

Excellent points.

Re: FIREd retirees and income
Being < 59.5, I'm doing a 72t/SEPP and even have enough would have enough tax liability.
-- related comments from others.
"If you do not have a federal tax liability, some experts suggest moving money from your traditional IRA account to a Roth IRA to create a tax liability that you can use the credit to offset."
"if you intend to create a tax liability by converting a Traditional IRA to a Roth IRA make sure you make the conversion in the same calendar year you buy your Tesla."

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

Well, in this forum we may have a lot of early retirees who have FIREd but have a relatively small amount of income because they have not begun collecting SS or pensions and have relatively efficient index funds for their investments.

But for the general population, given that a Model 3 cost a minimum of about $60K after sales tax and fees, it would seem reasonable that the majority of people who can afford such an expensive car should owe at least $7,500 in federal taxes. These are luxury cars. They are not being marketed to someone looking to buy a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord.

I paid 49K for my Model 3. Sales tax and destination fee makes it below 55K.

All before the 10,450 in credits/rebates.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

Tax incentive is another reason for many not to buy a Tesla. A $7500 credit is advertised everywhere but you don't get a $7500 credit unless you pay at least $7500 in federal tax. That requires an income of well over the national average. Majority of people won't get that much of a credit.

With 326 million people in the United States, millions of households will have 7500 in tax liability for the year. I bought 2 Tesla's to get 15,000 of Federal credits this year.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

I rarely use superchargers unless i am on a long road trip which is maybe a couple times per year. My daughter has had her model 3 for 6 months and has never been to a supercharger. She doesnt see the point. It she is going somewhere far she flys

I have a Model 3 and have never been to a supercharger with it either. My electric bill was 38.54 for this month. Its so cheap to charge at home, I don't need to take it to a supercharger. And I have 2 Tesla's. I do take my X to them.

 

[Popeye]

The landscape is changing quickly in California. There are Model 3’s everywhere. But supercharging is no longer free, and they are charging for standby time if you let the car sit around in the bay after you finish charging, so that has been helping to keep the charging bays available. But if Tesla keeps selling thousands of Model 3’s every month it may overwhelm the system. We will have to see how much sales slow down as the tax incentives wind down.

How much does it cost at the supercharger vs charging at home? I guess that varies a lot for the folks going thru multiple states.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

You never have to wait in line at the chargers?

I have had a Model X since March. Supercharge it about once a week. One time all stalls were full, waited 3 minutes until a spot opened up.

People are in and out at these superchargers.

I charged from 43% to 73% in 18 minutes today, I timed it.

 

[Texas Proud]

FYI arriving at 10% is no big deal at all actually. I've done it many times. The car keeps on top of you and you can even watch an expected vs actually chart of your charge. It will warn you if you need to slow down at all. Most of my roadtrips I'm driving 10 MPH over the speedlimit and keeping with the flow of the traffic.

Tesla tends to put more Superchargers in friendlier states and Texas is super unfriendly with sales and service. Keep the dealers associations happy and oil tycoons rich.

Tesla has made progress in Texas tho ... a fairly large state ... they need some more North-South Superchargers vs folks passing thru (West-East)

I redid it so I would return... it would require it to be full and it would have a bit over 50%....


The interesting number to me on this trip was an estimated 8 1/2 hours of charging time along the way, round trip... and there were many stops to go with that...


And the recommended route with more charger take a bit less than 2 hours more driving time...



With our Pilot we can do it with 3 refills (and a 4th when we get there)... and save 8 hours of time 'filling' up... and since we eat at Big Tex where there is no charger I cannot eat at some of the stops... BTW, cannot stop at Big Tex without going that stretch where I can only go 55...


Nope, a true EV does not make sense to me to be a primary car... and for tooling around here as my daily driver which I do not take on long trips I do not need that much range...


The best that will happen to me for what I want is possibly a plug in hybrid... 40 to 70 miles on EV and the extender on a few of the other times...

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

Great update - can you speak to brake maintenance- if any - in your 125K miles - thanks

I can't answer your question about maintenance because I have only driven my Model X 4100 miles. But the thing is you rarely use the brake pedal. EV's have "one pedal driving" where the vehicle slows on its own when you take your foot off the accelerator. Not as fast as a brake pedal, but close. If you need to hit the brake pedal, you do, like a normal ICE car. But mostly you just take your foot off the accelerator to slow down and stop. Takes a couple minutes to adjust to one pedal driving.

Not replacing the brakes is another advantage EV's have over ICE cars.

 

[Bamaman]

Nice to hear you're enjoying your Tesla and that you're getting good service.

I just don't care to spend so much money on transportation.

I paid $26K for my new 2018 Camry Hybrid, and 48 mpg on the open highway gives me a range of 600 miles--like my bladder would hold out that long. I like to say I have half of an electric car but with the additional benefits of having a gas car.

 

[midwestguy]

I have 90,000 miles on mu model s and brakes still look like new. Thats due to mostly using the regenetive brakes. In fact the only money i put into the car was a new set of tires. The charging for me is free for the life of the car. Still i cant justify the price of the car by gas savings and maintenance since i paid 105k for the car.

 

[Christine]

I've had my Model X for a couple of months. Love it!



Don't care discussing electric cars with people - it's just as bad as religion or politics.



I have a motorhome too. So now I think I'm going to miss my Tesla when using the motorhome. Starting to look at AirBnB and similar. Did not see that coming.

 

[Chuckanut]

Here's an interesting article comparing the cost of driving a Tesla Model 3 against some other cars.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/15/could-the-tesla-model-3-cut-your-costs-by-a-third/

I find the Camry comparison interesting in that the author admits he had to juggle some assumption in order to get a nice fat win for the Model 3. Mainly, he increased the yearly miles driven to 30,000 so as to get a big difference in the cost of fuel for teach year. IMHO, that is like admitting he had a weak case going in.

First, a big part of the savings in driving an EV is in fuel costs, and you don’t get big fuel savings if you don’t drive a lot of miles, so I doubled the miles driven a year from 15,000 a year to 30,000 a year. I also made the assumption for this comparison and the next that you signed up for special time of use (TOU) electricity rates with your local utility, cutting your fuel costs an additional 30%. That won’t apply to everyone. I assumed a 30% increase in insurance costs for both cars to account for increased mileage. I doubled the maintenance and repair estimates for both cars to account for the increased mileage. The result is a 32% reduction in costs, almost to the 33% goal!

He also, includes the government subsidy for the EV vehicles. A real factor for Tesla buyers, but it won't last forever if EVs are as successful as some predict. I still don't understand why anybody who can afford $50,000 to over $100,000 for a car needs a subsidy.

I am not anti Tesla or anti EV, but I find the comparison logic to be 'curious' to say the least. And, I think his arguments hurt the argument for EVs because it depends on these foolish assumptions and a subsidy that is obviously unfair.

 

[Midpack]

We were leaning toward a Model 3 as a second car, but seeing how much more than $35K they are (so far at least) killed our interest. You can't order one anywhere near that. I was hoping to get just the long range option, but you can't get it without buying AWD at present, total of $55K before other normal options and incentives (incentives will be cut in half twice in 2019 beginning with cars delivering after Jan 1, so the $7.5K tax break is already gone if you didn't order months ago?). And they charge an extra $1.5K-$2K for any ext color other than black, $1K extra for the int other than black, and $5K for the full "enhanced auto pilot!" I don't blame them for maximizing their revenue/profits, I'm just not willing to pay it.

Tesla has endured a lot and I admit I was a doubter, but their Q3 performance was encouraging (despite an unusual A/R entry). Tesla has almost single handedly pushed EVs into the mainstream?

And we still have to see how well Tesla services their cars with so many more on the road nowadays, they'll have to manage that ramp up carefully. At least they have more cars coming out of warranty to generate more service income, if they manage service well.

Maybe next time, for now it looks like another hybrid for us...

 

[eroscott]

... I still don't understand why anybody who can afford $50,000 to over $100,000 for a car needs a subsidy.

I am not anti Tesla or anti EV, but I find the comparison logic to be 'curious' to say the least. And, I think his arguments hurt the argument for EVs because it depends on these foolish assumptions and a subsidy that is obviously unfair.

New tech is expensive and risky for the buyers (early adopters). Early adopters often do a lot of free PR (discussions, rides, etc).

Tesla and GM have both hit the 200K car sales limit so their tax credits are winding down. Many players are now in the game since they saw Tesla's success. The latecomer manufacturers will get the advantage of the tax credit tho which sort of sucks. They could have had a limit of all EVs sold in the USA no matter from whom as an example.

This list was less than a handful in 2011 (when I bought the Volt) -- https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/

Personally, I'm very excited about Rivian who is making capable trucks and SUVs which is the real golden goose.

NOVEMBER UPDATE – 4 Automakers Closest To Losing Federal Tax Credit
https://insideevs.com/top-6-automakers-200000-federal-tax-credit-limit/

 

[eroscott]

We were leaning toward a Model 3 as a second car, but seeing how much more than $35K they are (so far at least) killed our interest. You can't order one anywhere near that. I was hoping to get just the long range option, but you can't get it without buying AWD at present, total of $55K before incentives (that are cut in half after Dec 31 deliveries). And they charge an extra $1.5K-$2K for any ext color other than black, $1K extra for the int other than black, and $5K for the full "enhanced auto pilot!" I don't blame them for maximizing their revenue/profits, I'm just not willing to pay it.

Tesla has endured a lot and I admit I was a doubter, but their Q3 performance was encouraging (despite an unusual A/R entry). Maybe next time, for now it looks like another hybrid for us...

You should consider a Plug-In hybrid! (meaning charge battery from the grid not from gas) You can even plug into 120v in your garage. My wife and kid do to charge the Volts while we sleep. The Honda Clarity is a great choice: https://insideevs.com/tag/honda-clarity-phev/

 

[explanade]

More and more EVs are coming to market.

For day to day driving it's more than adequate. It's been years since I've done a long road trip of at least 100 miles each way.

I will drive that much on trips when I'm using a rental but near home, haven't driven that much.

I read somewhere that some very high percentage of people drive 20 miles or less a day.

 

[eroscott]

...
I read somewhere that some very high percentage of people drive 20 miles or less a day.

Via this page: https://gm-volt.com/2007/12/06/how-...f-commuters-drive-less-than-40-miles-per-day/

But had to track down on WayBack Machine the source link:
https://web.archive.org/web/20170516062832/https://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/publications/omnistats/volume_03_issue_04/index.html

 

[Hamlet]

I don't think I have it in me to pay $50k for a car.

I'm still driving my 2008 Kia Rondo that I bought in 2010 for $11k.

 

[aja8888]

I don't think I have it in me to pay $50k for a car.

I'm still driving my 2008 Kia Rondo that I bought in 2010 for $11k.

Here:

https://insideevs.com/hyundai-kona-electric-gets-shockingly-low-price-tag-in-us/

Nice little small SUv with 258 mile range.

The Hyundai Kona Electric has been long awaited in the U.S. But, when it arrives here early next year, we now know how much it will cost: $36,450. If we subtract the $7,500 federal tax credit from that, we’re looking at a mere $28,950. Then, there are the various state incentives that can reduce that number even more. Californians, for example, could be looking at an overall starting price of just $26,450!