Coronavirus Will Change The World Permanently. Here’s How.

[dd564]

Seriously, you’re not looking at the stats - they’re published and updated constantly? Compare the number of cases and number of deaths per capita for the US, China, South Korea and Taiwan. They’ve handled this far better in that respect, and China and SK have clearly peaked while we’re still going up exponentially for 2-3 week’s evidently.

It’s not useless to compare so we can do better next time. I’d say just accepting the mistakes made and mandating more beds, PPE and ventilators based as you’ve suggested on this sub-standard response is a mindless response.



No idea what you’re 100% statement is about. Of course no one will ever have complete data, but we (and Europe) could have learned from China, SK and our own experts instead of our very late defensive response. China for example had no idea what they were dealing with as it started there, yet they’ve had far fewer cases and deaths per capita than us, and our numbers are still rising rapidly.

I've been looking at the stats daily. You are choosing misinterpret stats to make things seem bad.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/?utm_campaign=homeAdvegas1?#countries

Deaths per million we aren't in the top 15 worst.


The comparison to South Korea has almost no bearing on the U.S. 20% of their population is in one city. That draws no similarity to the U.S. from a human density standpoint.

Also geographically and from a governing standpoint we are vastly different. We're a Republic of 50 different large states that dwarf the geographical size of most countries.
We have 50 different governors acting independently each with different economic motives.

Before we debate how well things were handled and in using China as a shiny example, are you 100% confident in China's numbers being accurate?

 

[Dtail]

On top of that our local grocery has suspended sale ads. Market prices. IE Inflation. Does anybody else see it?

No BOGO at Publix.

 

[Moemg]

We still have BOGO at our publix

 

[MichaelB]

Before we debate how well things were handled and in using China as a shiny example, are you 100% confident in China's numbers being accurate?

The world is still in the early stage of a pandemic, there’s no cure, treatments are still in the testing phase, and there’s insufficient testing and no agreed or uniform reporting system. All data should be viewed as incomplete and conclusions should be treated as questionable.

 

[dd564]

The world is still in the early stage of a pandemic, there’s no cure, treatments are still in the testing phase, and there’s insufficient testing and no agreed or uniform reporting system. All data should be viewed as incomplete and conclusions should be treated as questionable.

My point is China's data has been criticized as the least reliable from the start.

Yes, all data is incomplete.

The comparison to South Korea is insane for many reasons.

1. It's smaller in physical size than Kentucky.
2. 20% of its population is in Seoul.
3. Land borders with other countries. 163 miles
4. Number of nations it borders other countries with. = 1
5. Border type - DMZ width of 2.5 miles
6. Country it borders - North Korea
7. Number of land neighboring country citizens typically traveling to South Korea... pretty low.

Other than those factors, yes, a logical comparison to the U.S. because they are both countries.

 

[MichaelB]

My point is China's data has been criticized as the least reliable from the start.

One of those things that cannot be verified, so it can be used to support any conclusion. It is therefore meaningless and pointless.

The comparison to South Korea is insane for many reasons.

1. It's smaller in physical size than Kentucky.
2. 20% of its population is in Seoul.
3. Land borders with other countries. 163 miles
4. Number of nations it borders other countries with. = 1
5. Border type - DMZ width of 2.5 miles
6. Country it borders - North Korea
7. Number of land neighboring country citizens typically traveling to South Korea... pretty low.

Other than those factors, yes, a logical comparison to the U.S. because they are both countries.

I think a virus doesn’t care much for those factors, but I may be wrong.

Comparing S Korea with the US is not “insane”. There may be some benefit. Lighten up.

 

[dd564]

One of those things that cannot be verified, so it can be used to support any conclusion. It is therefore meaningless and pointless.


I think a virus doesn’t care much for those factors, but I may be wrong.

Comparing S Korea with the US is not “insane”. There may be some benefit. Lighten up.

You know little about viruses then if you don't think people moving around doesn't matter.

Maybe watch your news on social distancing.

 

[MichaelB]

Life is too short to waste any more time on this. Walking away...

 

[Gumby]

Also geographically and from a governing standpoint we are vastly different. We're a Republic of 50 different large states that dwarf the geographical size of most countries.
We have 50 different governors acting independently each with different economic motives.

A bit of a side thread here, but the fact that the USA has states is not what makes it a republic. In a republic, the head of state is chosen, rather than being an inherited position, as in a monarchy. The word is derived from the Latin "res publica" meaning "public thing/matter", meaning that the position is not the private property of one family. And that's all that "republic" means. It does not mean the same thing as "democracy", for the head of state could be chosen by an oligarchy. Democracy means that the people - "demos" in Greek - is the source of power - "kratia". Democracy can be direct, where the people make the laws by direct vote, like ancient Athens, or representative, where the people vote for representatives who then make the laws, like the US and other modern democracies. Thus, Russia is a republic, but not a democracy, and the UK is a democracy, but not a republic. South Korea is both a democracy and a republic, as are France, Germany, Italy and many other countries.

What you probably meant to say is that the US is a federal republic, meaning that there are dual sovereigns - a state government and a national government, which each have their own executive, legislative and judicial branches, and which have overlapping power in each state. Germany is also a federal republic. France and Italy are unitary republics. They have provinces and administrative divisions, but no true co-sovereign governments at that level. South Korea has some province level government functions, but is not a true federal system.

It's a small matter, but I see people misusing these terms all the time and it bothers me.

 

[dd564]

A bit of a side thread here, but the fact that the USA has states is not what makes it a republic. In a republic, the head of state is chosen, rather than being an inherited position, as in a monarchy. The word is derived from the Latin "res publica" meaning "public thing/matter", meaning that the position is not the private property of one family. And that's all that "republic" means. It does not mean the same thing as "democracy", for the head of state could be chosen by an oligarchy. Democracy means that the people - "demos" in Greek - is the source of power - "kratia". Democracy can be direct, where the people make the laws by direct vote, like ancient Athens, or representative, where the people vote for representatives who then make the laws, like the US and other modern democracies. Thus, Russia is a republic, but not a democracy, and the UK is a democracy, but not a republic. South Korea is both a democracy and a republic, as are France, Germany, Italy and many other countries.

What you probably meant to say is that the US is a federal republic, meaning that there are dual sovereigns - a state government and a national government, which each have their own executive, legislative and judicial branches, and which have overlapping power in each state. Germany is also a federal republic. France and Italy are unitary republics. They have provinces and administrative divisions, but no true co-sovereign governments at that level. South Korea is has some province level government functions, but is not a true federal system.

It's a small matter, but I see people misusing these terms all the time and it bothers me.

I'm not a Republic expert, admittedly.

My point is we have Governors of some various prominent states that dwarf the sizes of some countries, and at times they disagree with the President on what is best.

A pandemic like this will largely expose these differences, and also will bring into question who is responsible for the health and safety of a State's people.

 

[Gumby]

I'm not a Republic expert, admittedly.

My point is we have Governors of some various prominent states that dwarf the sizes of some countries, and at times they disagree with the President on what is best.

A pandemic like this will largely expose these differences, and also will bring into question who is responsible for the health and safety of a State's people.

In the US, with the federal government supposedly one of Constitutionally limited powers, issues of public health and safety have traditionally been viewed as coming within the purview of the state government. However, the federal government has for the past 100 years or so leaned heavily on the Commerce Clause and Necessary and Proper Clause to insinuate itself in that sphere.

 

[jollystomper]

One area I have been thinking about, in terms of what will permanently change, is mass transit. It seems at the very least, masks will be required to be worn on then as we return to a "new normal" (this is not an unusual practice in several mass transit systems I have used in Asia).

It is also likely, due to more work and home and more fear of being in close proximity with strangers, ridership will fall. Until there is a vaccine, the efforts localities have made to increase the usage of mass transit may be for naught. As Gary Numan sang "Here in my car, I feel safest of all..."

 

[statsman]

The extraordinary shock(s) to our system that the coronavirus pandemic is bringing has the potential to break America out of the 50-plus year pattern of escalating political and cultural polarization we have been trapped in, and help us to change course toward greater national solidarity and functionality.

Next to no chance of that happening. We haven't changed yet. If anything, it's getting worse.

 

[Markola]

Perhaps more Americans will take a hard look at the voting mess that just happened in Wisconsin this week and demand to go a different route, like Oregon and other states that do all vote-by mail safely on paper ballots, conveniently for everyone, with high turnout, no international interference and fraud too low to measure. Elections are run by states so there’s no need to wait for leadership from DC.

 

[aja8888]

A pandemic like this will largely expose these differences, and also will bring into question who is responsible for the health and safety of a State's people.

Who is responsible for your health and safety? That's a simple question and easy answer - YOU ARE!

 

[donheff]

Perhaps more Americans will take a hard look at the voting mess that just happened in Wisconsin this week and demand to go a different route, like Oregon and other states that do all vote-by mail safely on paper ballots, conveniently for everyone, with high turnout, no international interference and fraud too low to measure. Elections are run by states so there’s no need to wait for leadership from DC.

I think the Wisconsin fiasco demonstrated that the polarization will prevent sensible action in many states. Politicians are ready to let people die if they think a proposed change may favor more people in their opposing party voting.

 

[Aerides]

mod note:

This is an interesting thread, and I think we all enjoy looking forward to "after times."

Let's please not derail it prematurely with talk of any political or partisan issues or desired changes. Surely there are enough social and financial differences to fill pages on this topic.

 

[dd564]

Who is responsible for your health and safety? That's a simple question and easy answer - YOU ARE!

I was referring to from a governing standpoint.

 

[razztazz]

Who is responsible for your health and safety? That's a simple question and easy answer - YOU ARE!

Wrong argument. Quite obviously. Don't act like you can't tell the difference between what an individual can do at the individual level and why we form societies, because we know you are smarter than that.



That argument is the kind of lecture a parent gives a child when they simply want junior to shut up and go away.

 

[Chuckanut]

In my mind the world has already changed. It's our policies and attitudes that have not adjusted to the changes.

Our methods of handling an infection from far away seem to have been based on the idea that only wealthy people traveled much and they traveled on railroads and steam ships. Common folks in jet planes have changed that. We knew that, but our methods have not changed to accept it. Now, hopefully, they will.

Pause and remember - When you fight reality, you will lose every time. Once you accept the situation for what it truly is, not what you want it to be, you are then free to move forward.

 

[gerntz]

It's not the developing of the vaccine that takes a lot of time, it's the testing on people that has to move slowly.

I don't see how one can call something a vaccine unless it has been tested on people or something else that has a near 100% correlation with people.

 

[gerntz]

Perhaps more Americans will take a hard look at the voting mess that just happened in Wisconsin this week and demand to go a different route, like Oregon and other states that do all vote-by mail safely on paper ballots, conveniently for everyone, with high turnout, no international interference and fraud too low to measure. Elections are run by states so there’s no need to wait for leadership from DC.

How does mail-in have anything to do the idea of international interference one way or another?

 

[Midpack]

I know of 4 pharma companies are working on a Covid-19 vaccine (presumably there are many more), they estimated "one month" to "4 weeks" to develop the vaccine. Because of genetic sequencing technology, they can develop vaccines quicker with a much higher probability of success today.

In the US at least, "clinical development is a three-phase process. During Phase I, small groups of people receive the trial vaccine. In Phase II, the clinical study is expanded and vaccine is given to people who have characteristics (such as age and physical health) similar to those for whom the new vaccine is intended. In Phase III, the vaccine is given to thousands of people and tested for efficacy and safety.

Many vaccines undergo Phase IV formal, ongoing studies after the vaccine is approved and licensed."

"Drugmaker Johnson and Johnson started working on a vaccine two weeks ago [mid Jan 2020], according to CNBC. The company’s chief scientific officer estimates they could have a vaccine ready for market within a year."

Consistent with the '12 to 18' months that's been widely published.

 

[rk911]

Perhaps more Americans will take a hard look at the voting mess that just happened in Wisconsin this week and demand to go a different route, like Oregon and other states that do all vote-by mail safely on paper ballots, conveniently for everyone, with high turnout, no international interference and fraud too low to measure. Elections are run by states so there’s no need to wait for leadership from DC.

100% vote-by-mail is far from the answer. states that have embraced this method have had decades to work out the kinks and pitfalls. as a former illinous judge of election i have serious doubts that most states could make the transition in less than 6-mos.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/04/07/danger-moving-vote-by-mail-168602

https://www.heritage.org/election-integrity/commentary/vote-mail-makes-fraud-and-errors-worse

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/491862-pandemic-sparks-partisan-brawl-over-voting-by-mail

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/04/06/more-voting-by-mail-would-make-2020-election-safer-our-health-it-comes-with-risks-its-own/

 

[travelover]

100% vote-by-mail is far from the answer. states that have embraced this method have had decades to work out the kinks and pitfalls. as a former illinous judge of election i have serious doubts that most states could make the transition in less than 6-mos..........

Here in Washington state we have vote by mail. It is just terrible. When I moved here and got a new drivers license I was automatically registered. A couple of weeks before an election I get a ballot in the mail, a prepaid postage envelope to mail it back in and a voters guide listing all the candidates and other ballot initiatives. I check the boxes and drop it in the mail box and never stand in line nor take time off other activities to vote. If there is any question about the results, all of the hard copies are right there and can be counted.

Its really terrible.