College advice please

RetireeRobert said:
I agree with your point to pick a school that you "can afford".

For a CS degree, I am of the opinion that "any" school offering one, "and" that also has a relatively high percentage of graduates who have found fulltime jobs in the CS field post graduation would be ok. If there are statistics about schools' CS grads salaries, one might factor that into a choice as well.

Otherwise, other factors important to the student, such as campus activities, culture, geographic location can play a more important part in chosing a school.

Just "get that CD degree".

My DS, who graduated with CS degree about five years ago from a state university, has a nice high paying job with state government. Nice benefits. He just bought himself, after stuffing all his available retirement options with maximum allowed, a brand new car with some of his leftover lucre. He was not the star student, took nearly 6 years to finish the BS CS, but he did it and got the degree.

A CS degree from nearly any accredited college will be the golden ticket, doesn't matter really which college.

IMHO. :)
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I agree. As I said above, getting a CS will get you a good job. My advise was to try to help the OP make the optimal choice (IMO).
 
As someone who used to interview people for entry level positions on occasion, a school that has a good coop program is something I would consider a plus when selecting a school. If you can get into that coop program , even if you don’t want to work where you did your co-op you will have a leg up on your average cs grad when it comes time to find a job
 
I think the optimal choice really depends on the student.

boilerman's implication that more expensive is better or more prestigious is better is not always true.

I went for the first half of my education at one of the most expensive and prestigious schools in the world. One of the years I was there it was the top rated undergrad school in the US. If I said the name, you'd recognize it. It was not a good fit, I was unhappy, didn't do particularly well, and left.

The second school, where I finished my degree (CS degree as it happens) was a respected but regional liberal arts university. If I said the name, you might recognize it but you might not. It was a good fit, I was happy, I did well, and graduated. But the most important thing as far as this thread goes is that this second school was a better school for me. I got what I thought was a better education from better teachers.

Try to find the best fit for the student, I say.
 
Thanks all- this has been incredibly helpful. Having worked in a very different industry, I had no idea what might be important to CS employers. We now have a list of questions to ask when we tour schools- internships, co-ops, starting salary, etc. DS scored a 34 on the ACT and (by a miracle of reporting errors and COVID nonsense) has a 3.9 gpa, so we are getting the VIP treatment from in-state and some out of state schools. Have some more research to do, and then we'll see what kinds of offers he gets. We had a fat 529 account but we spent some on an expensive private school. We've set up three tours so far and will let you know how it goes. Thanks again- y'all are the BEST!
 
ugirl if your boy isn't certain about CS do a little looking to see if any of those three schools offer an MIS degree. It's my personal opinion the MIS offers a little broader range of options if someone turns out not to love coding.
 
ugeauxgirl said:
Thanks all- this has been incredibly helpful. Having worked in a very different industry, I had no idea what might be important to CS employers. We now have a list of questions to ask when we tour schools- internships, co-ops, starting salary, etc. DS scored a 34 on the ACT and (by a miracle of reporting errors and COVID nonsense) has a 3.9 gpa, so we are getting the VIP treatment from in-state and some out of state schools. Have some more research to do, and then we'll see what kinds of offers he gets. We had a fat 529 account but we spent some on an expensive private school. We've set up three tours so far and will let you know how it goes. Thanks again- y'all are the BEST!
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It is also helpful to find out what companies do on campus recruiting from the schools and where the alumni are from of your regional, top tech hiring firms. In our area a lot of the top tech companies hire not just from the more famous schools but also San Jose State - a bargain at $9K a year in tuition. And then the $100 - $200K or so maybe saved on school costs could be put towards a house instead.

It sounds like you son will do great no matter which school he attends.
 
Programmers are constantly learning and applying new languages, the field is dynamic and will always be in flux. Thus, the credential mill of college is irrelevant. What matters is skill set aptitude and motivation. Today's hot programming environment is obsolete in 5 years. Why hemorrhage dollars and delay much needed experience for worthless credentials and value signaling?

The best programmers are always self taught and curious. The rest drop out and move on after a few years.

There is no other field of endeavor in which ALL the training is so completely ONLINE. Using 1950's subsidized government school as an entry to the field is the wrong approach.

I consider programming to be a skill set not unlike learning a foreign language, mixed with logic. A really nice skill to have, but it is unlikely to be an indefinite meal ticket.

Choose the right environment to start and just start. Learn R for stats, for example.

This is a lifelong learning career path, which combines well with other industrial experience that takes more time to pick up. It is also a career path that favors individual contributors as contractors/consultants.

If you cannot resist the siren song of diploma mills, know that price matters. 5 minutes past graduation, no one cares where you went or what you did in school: But the debt is yours forever. IT is a worldwide activity, shared around the planet. You will be in direct competition with folks from India, China, ... who are just as qualifed and capable yet have no education debt anchor and work remotely, just like you, and can be profitably employed at 1/3 your salary. You will need an advantage, or you will have to work 3 times harder to justify your salary.

Education credentials have little influence on salary or position, because they have no effect on performance. The only question is can you do the work, on time and on budget, and at what rate?

On the other hand, feel free to run the meter, delay maturity, and put off adulthood with a masters or a phd and live the great american dream.

Ironically, such an approach virtually guarantees a life in the salt mines with no chance of early retirement or financial independence.
 
indiajust,

A nice discussion for basic programmers.

However, I would add those running the computer departments for satellite ground stations, and for onboard satellite computer systems, and for advanced computing systems/software in my last two companies were not those you are discussing, but rather folks from extremely competitive universities - places where they were stressed and forced to compete with the best in the world.

in other words, the university mattered because that is where the best were going to school and changing he dynamic of computer hardware and software.
 
stephenson said:
indiajust,

A nice discussion for basic programmers.

However, I would add those running the computer departments for satellite ground stations, and for onboard satellite computer systems, and for advanced computing systems/software in my last two companies were not those you are discussing, but rather folks from extremely competitive universities - places where they were stressed and forced to compete with the best in the world.

in other words, the university mattered because that is where the best were going to school and changing he dynamic of computer hardware and software.
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If a kid can get into the best of best yes, those students are few and far between. That's the crux of the matter isn't it? A great ACT doesn't mean that's true and as for GPA that became a moot point a long time ago.



Is the OP's son in that group, we don't know. Remember the original post said "CS or something like that"
 
Indiajust, this is where I toot the horn for a great MIS program, it gives you a solid business foundation to go with your information systems knowledge. It's not quite so narrowly defined. The two grads in my family went into wildly different areas and had start dates at Fortune 500 companies before the ink was dry on their degrees.
 
stephenson said:
indiajust,

A nice discussion for basic programmers.

However, I would add those running the computer departments for satellite ground stations, and for onboard satellite computer systems, and for advanced computing systems/software in my last two companies were not those you are discussing, but rather folks from extremely competitive universities - places where they were stressed and forced to compete with the best in the world.

in other words, the university mattered because that is where the best were going to school and changing he dynamic of computer hardware and software.
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Just curious if you have any research studies to support this, or is this just your personal experience? Your opinion doesn't seem to mesh with the studies by Dale and Kreuger, or the industry trends at the top tech companies. Google's HR head had this to say, "When the company was small, Google cared a lot about getting kids from Harvard, Stanford, and MIT. But Bock said it was the "wrong" hiring strategy. Experience has taught him there are exceptional kids at many other places, from state schools in California to New York....What we find is the best people from places like that are just as good if not better as anybody you can get from an Ivy League School. " - Google Doesn't Care Where You Went to College

The Atlantic had this to say based on the Dale and Kreuger research, "For most students, the salary boost from going to a super-selective school is “generally indistinguishable from zero” after adjusting for student characteristics, such as test scores."
 
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Sorry, no studies to cite or reference, just my experience with the two companies with locations in LA, SF, Baltimore, Denver ... several other companies we subbed to or primed for - the programming and computer hardware leaders were all from the schools (probably missed a few) that I mentioned - sure, there was the occasional education outlier, but most were from really competitive schools.

I spent most of my time with the management tier, but when I did end up in raw engineering discussions, it was also clear there was a hierarchy at work - those that came from extremely competitive schools were in extremely competitive jobs - and most were being "groomed" for more complex jobs, more responsibility and better pay - bonuses were clearly at play.

My experience WAS in a specific industry (advanced electronics for aircraft, radars, weapons control, various types of satellites, chemical and electric lasers, etc), but most systems had bits and pieces of every science and engineering regime - most funded by the government (usually bleeding edge application, but occasionally bleeding edge science). Rarely had much to do with commercial companies that were doing IT or internet stuff - except when we needed to apply their techniques to our systems.
 
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ivinsfan said:
If a kid can get into the best of best yes, those students are few and far between. That's the crux of the matter isn't it? A great ACT doesn't mean that's true and as for GPA that became a moot point a long time ago.



Is the OP's son in that group, we don't know. Remember the original post said "CS or something like that"
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A niche like that is a great competitive moat. Finding and loving such a niche for a lifetime is like buying a microcap microsoft and holding it forever. Great in theory, but almost impossible in practice.
 
stephenson said:
Sorry, no studies to cite or reference, just my experience as the two companies with locations in LA, SF, Baltimore, Denver ... several other companies we subbed to or primed for - the programming and computer hardware leaders were all from the schools (probably missed a few) that I mentioned - sure, there was the occasional education outlier, but most were from really competitive schools.

I spent most of my time with the management tier, but when I did end up in raw engineering discussions, it was also clear there was a hierarchy at work - those that came from extremely competitive schools were in extremely competitive jobs - and most were being "groomed" for more complex jobs, more responsibility and better pay - bonuses were clearly at play.
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Ambitious and smart people tend to go to top tier universities and get high paying jobs. But that doesn't mean attendance at the universities were the cause of getting the high paying jobs. This is what the Dale and Kreuger studies accounted for. What they found was that most people who even applied at elite colleges but went elsewhere did just as well, interestingly even if they were rejected by the elite colleges.

From the Atlantic article link in my previous post, "if Mike and Drew have the same SAT scores and apply to the same colleges, but Mike gets into Harvard and Drew doesn’t, they can still expect to earn the same income throughout their careers. Despite Harvard’s international fame and energetic alumni outreach, somebody like Mike would not experience an observable “Harvard effect.” Dale and Krueger even found that the average SAT scores of all the schools a student applies to is a more powerful predictor of success than the school that student actually attends."
 
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indiajust said:
Programmers are constantly learning and applying new languages, the field is dynamic and will always be in flux. Thus, the credential mill of college is irrelevant. What matters is skill set aptitude and motivation. ..........

Education credentials have little influence on salary or position, because they have no effect on performance. The only question is can you do the work, on time and on budget, and at what rate?
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I would agree it is more the "ability to learn" (and to keep learning) that probably most employers are wanting in a new hire. And like you say, they do "not" care "where" that ability was demonstrated. A BS in CS from most accredited colleges can demonstrate a potential hire has that "ability to learn.

Therefore, the OP's son can pick a college based on other factors than "brand name college". Factors like cost, geographic location, campus activities, culture, whatever else may be important to her son (and OP).

Your other comments about having to compete with students from India/China who often work at 1/3 the cost belies the fact the CS students in the US are in fact getting very lucrative employment situations. Supply and demand for US CS grads seems to be favoring the grads, not the employers---India and China notwithstanding. IMHO (I am a retired CPA, have trouble figuring out how to turn on my computer). :popcorn:
 
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indiajust said:
Programmers are constantly learning and applying new languages, the field is dynamic and will always be in flux. Thus, the credential mill of college is irrelevant. What matters is skill set aptitude and motivation. Today's hot programming environment is obsolete in 5 years. Why hemorrhage dollars and delay much needed experience for worthless credentials and value signaling?

The best programmers are always self taught and curious. The rest drop out and move on after a few years.

There is no other field of endeavor in which ALL the training is so completely ONLINE. Using 1950's subsidized government school as an entry to the field is the wrong approach.

I consider programming to be a skill set not unlike learning a foreign language, mixed with logic. A really nice skill to have, but it is unlikely to be an indefinite meal ticket.

Choose the right environment to start and just start. Learn R for stats, for example.

This is a lifelong learning career path, which combines well with other industrial experience that takes more time to pick up. It is also a career path that favors individual contributors as contractors/consultants.

If you cannot resist the siren song of diploma mills, know that price matters. 5 minutes past graduation, no one cares where you went or what you did in school: But the debt is yours forever. IT is a worldwide activity, shared around the planet. You will be in direct competition with folks from India, China, ... who are just as qualifed and capable yet have no education debt anchor and work remotely, just like you, and can be profitably employed at 1/3 your salary. You will need an advantage, or you will have to work 3 times harder to justify your salary.

Education credentials have little influence on salary or position, because they have no effect on performance. The only question is can you do the work, on time and on budget, and at what rate?

On the other hand, feel free to run the meter, delay maturity, and put off adulthood with a masters or a phd and live the great american dream.

Ironically, such an approach virtually guarantees a life in the salt mines with no chance of early retirement or financial independence.
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Computer Science is not just programming. It encompasses many different areas of knowledge: algorithms, computational complexity, computer design, programming language design, programming methodology, data structures, information retrieval, parallel and distributed computing, computer networks, cyber security, artificial intelligence, robotics, etc etc.

Your point of programmers competing with people across the globe is so true. If you really want to just write code, work for a defense company where a security clearance is required and cannot be outsourced overseas. If I were starting today, I would focus on computer security.
 
One thing I hadn't considered when our first son studied engineering at a reputable out of state college, is the the increased likelihood they may not return to their home state with a HCOL after graduation.

He received a great undergraduate education and is enjoying a nice quality of life in a wonderful location. I don't suppose I would have done anything differently to steer them into an in state college so they might live closer to home after graduation. It was a few years into college, as he made personal and professional connections, that it dawned on me he was building a fine life out of state.

Parents need to let go of course, but I thought I might share this observations on attending an out of state colleges with others.
 
skibum said:
One thing I hadn't considered when our first son studied engineering at a reputable out of state college, is the the increased likelihood they may not return to their home state with a HCOL after graduation.

He received a great undergraduate education and is enjoying a nice quality of life in a wonderful location. I don't suppose I would have done anything differently to steer them into an in state college so they might live closer to home after graduation. It was a few years into college, as he made personal and professional connections, that it dawned on me he was building a fine life out of state.

Parents need to let go of course, but I thought I might share this observations on attending an out of state colleges with others.
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Our two oldest kids, this wasn't even an issue. They both wanted to go to school "not far" from home. The youngest one was the wild card. While she went to undergrad sixty miles from home, she did her master's in Boston at Boston Conservatory 3000 miles away. Then did post master's performance certificate in Bloomington Indiana at IU's Jacobs School of Music. But after her various studies, she decided she would rather live in Portland, just up the road. So, there is life after out-of-state school. Sometimes the home area roots do win out.
 
bonvoyage said:
I am surprised that nobody has mentioned the most valuable source of information about college: the forums on College Confidential: https://www.collegeconfidential.com

A lot of people here have offered well-meaning but mostly irrelevant advice. When it comes to very practical information about how to search for colleges and pay for them, you can't beat the information you can get on College Confidential.
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I have to agree with this, having sent 2 kids to college in the last 4 years. College Confidential (CC) has up-to-date, relevant information. It is tucked in with lots of other noise from people whining about this or that, so you do have to sift through the nonsense to find the nuggets.

Some of the ideas that my DW and I had about college are out-dated and not accurate in today's world. We discuss this with our peers, who support our view since they lived in our picking a college world 40 years ago. Yet, we find out that things today are not as they were 40 years ago. Imagine that. For those who sent kids to school 20 years ago - things have changed since then as well.

I am in the camp that where you go to school has little to do with your success. Pick the right school for you. One that is comfortable when you visit. Focus when you get there and stay at the top of the class. Take additional humanities classes, join clubs, seek out internships and/or co-op experiences. Learn a language. Take a public speaking course. Learn to cook. Study overseas. Learn how to write a business letter. Take an etiquette class. All these things will stand out in an interview and make you a desirable candidate when the time comes.
 
HarveyS said:
College Confidential (CC) has up-to-date, relevant information. It is tucked in with lots of other noise from people whining about this or that, so you do have to sift through the nonsense to find the nuggets.
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Any site where one has to waste one's time to "sift through the nonsense" is worse than useless, IMHO.
 
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