Drain Backing Up

[Jerry1]

My daughter has a continual issue with her drain backing up. She’s had it snaked out several times to no avail. Her husband (SIL), just snaked out the drain a couple weeks ago. He borrowed a heavy duty snake from a friend and snaked out all the drains and the main drain all the way out to the street. Today her drain backed up again while doing laundry. I’m wondering if there are any ideas that we could consider that may be causing this other than an actual blockage - which it doesn’t appear to be (though I could be wrong).

The floor drain in the basement backs up when she does laundry. Her washer drains into a laundry tub that drains to the sewer. The floor drain is in the same area as the washer (a small laundry room in the basement). It does seem to get better when they snake it, but I just can’t imagine what’s clogging it up again in such a short timeframe. I’m wondering if maybe she’s using too much detergent or if there is some sort of venting issue (and how I could prove that and/or correct/mitigate that).

Any ideas on how to troubleshoot this would be appreciated.

 

[Car-Guy]

Are her nextdoor neighbors experiencing similar problems?

If not,

Could be a snake can get through but still has significant blockages and needs a professional roto-router. Collapsing sewer lines and tree roots are both common causes for such problems between the house and street. Lot's of plumbers use cameras to run through the lines and find the problem these days.

 

[PaunchyPirate]

Call a sewage company. They can send a camera into the sewer line and look for obstruction. I just did this 2 months ago. They found a ball of small tree roots (like a ball of webbing) that mostly blocked the line. There was no damaged pipes, just a clump of tiny roots that had crept thru where pipes are joined together. They used a pressurized water hose to break the ball apart and out of the way. Total cost = $485. Small town PA pricing.

 

[wolf]

My experience.

1. If it is tree roots. (camera can confirm). Plumbers will recommend main drain replacement.

2. They dig up old sewer line and replace. Dig down to damaged section. And pull
new "pipe" to second hole they dug. (My case. I had 2 clean outs.).
They did not dig up entire sewer line. Using a cable they break thru existing line.

3. Or dig up damaged portion. And just replaced that portion with "clean out". (vertical tube, with
cap on top. So future cleaning of main drain is simple).
This was done to one of my rentals. Cheaper than option #2.

4. Mom's house has tree roots near street. In her case, I use Tree root killer,
April and Sept. each year. Seems to work. After drain is cleared by pro.
Roebic FRK-1LB Foaming Root Killer. Amazon.

In Calif. City will snake first several feet from the street for free.
Past that, then owner has to hire professional.


5. You may have "clean out", which will make it easy and much cheaper to clean out blockage.
And if main sewer not to bad. Tree root killer cheap fix.
Or you may have a "collapsed sewer line", Not "straight", so total/partial replacement may be required.

Just my experience. Good luck.

 

[tominboise]

I have had similar issues, with a similar laundry set up in the past. The last plumber recommended hydro jetting the pipe to clean it out. I bought one of these from Amazon and used it with my pressure washer.
https://www.amazon.com/Pressure-5800PSI-Cleaner-Rotating-Waterproof/dp/B08TMBN987/ref=sr_1_3?crid=3BOGDA5AF62IR&keywords=pressure%2Bwasher%2Bdrain%2Bjetter&qid=1691207240&sprefix=pressure%2Bwasher%2Bdr%2Caps%2C183&sr=8-3&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.006c50ae-5d4c-4777-9bc0-4513d670b6bc&th=1

It worked well and I spend quite a bit of time water jetting the drain line (it is a cast iron drain pipe and I had access in my basement to get the hose into the drain line). I haven't really had any issues since. Snaking just seems to punch a hole in the grease and goo that builds up on the walls of the pipe. This device blasts most of the gunk off the walls of the pipe. It might be worth a try.

 

[COcheesehead]

It’s deep in the sewer line.

 

[skyking1]

@wolf detailed it nicely.
I do service excavations in addition to the commercial construction work for a plumbing company.
I would camera the line and investigate.

 

[SecondAttempt]

Call a sewage company. They can send a camera into the sewer line and look for obstruction. I just did this 2 months ago. They found a ball of small tree roots (like a ball of webbing) that mostly blocked the line. There was no damaged pipes, just a clump of tiny roots that had crept thru where pipes are joined together. They used a pressurized water hose to break the ball apart and out of the way. Total cost = $485. Small town PA pricing.

I had a similar problem about 20 years ago in Arizona. Same story, professional plumbing company charged me about $400 to replace a 4 foot section of sewer pipe invaded by roots. I had to dig the hole though. They said it would have been more if the plumber had to dig the hole. It only took me a couple of hours though. But I guess plumbers are paid more than homeowners like me.

They did do the camera thing and it was basically free - did not have to pay but they got the job because of it. I thought I got off easy.

 

[target2019]

Not a plumber, but I'm thinking that venting is inadequate. If there is a drain in the basement that tells me it's a very old house. So the sewer line may not drop enough.

I would look into a newer washer, too. Something that uses less water?

We had our basement sewer line replaced 2 weeks ago. I've thought about sewer lines for a month, so lots of time contemplating the entire system.

 

[Gumby]

My house was built in 1857 and did not originally have indoor plumbing. When it did get plumbing sometime in the 135 years before we bought it, they used ceramic pipe sections from the house to the street. Those old ceramic pipe sections are particularly prone to having roots grow into the pipes and, given that we have many giant maples in the yard, the main drain clogged a lot. After about the fourth or fifth time of having the roto rooter guy come out, we bit the bullet and replaced the entire line. It has been good ever since.

 

[frayne]

@wolf detailed it nicely.

I would camera the line and investigate.

+1 as it will give you a good starting point to see what you are dealing with, otherwise you're throwing darts in the dark.

 

[street]

My experience.

1. If it is tree roots. (camera can confirm). Plumbers will recommend main drain replacement.

2. They dig up old sewer line and replace. Dig down to damaged section. And pull
new "pipe" to second hole they dug. (My case. I had 2 clean outs.).
They did not dig up entire sewer line. Using a cable they break thru existing line.

3. Or dig up damaged portion. And just replaced that portion with "clean out". (vertical tube, with
cap on top. So future cleaning of main drain is simple).
This was done to one of my rentals. Cheaper than option #2.

4. Mom's house has tree roots near street. In her case, I use Tree root killer,
April and Sept. each year. Seems to work. After drain is cleared by pro.
Roebic FRK-1LB Foaming Root Killer. Amazon.

In Calif. City will snake first several feet from the street for free.
Past that, then owner has to hire professional.


5. You may have "clean out", which will make it easy and much cheaper to clean out blockage.
And if main sewer not to bad. Tree root killer cheap fix.
Or you may have a "collapsed sewer line", Not "straight", so total/partial replacement may be required.

Just my experience. Good luck.

A very good chance it is roots a very good chance.

 

[target2019]

2nd thought. Our washer drains into a vertical pipe, with air flow possible around the male plastic hose.

An older laundry tub probably has no venting. So the tub fills quickly, and gurgle gurgle. Check all of the trap below, as well as pipe. Bits of cotton and whatever can quickly build up in there.

Caustic detergent also works against those traps.

 

[JoeWras]

You're gonna need a pro. The advice above is good.

My dad was a journeyman service plumber. I went out on side jobs with him (don't tell the Union!) A real plumber will use incredibly aggressive and dangerous rodding machine, with cutters that will tear off your fingers, like this:

Most DYI rentals are a bit less aggressive and typically come with a baby cutter because they don't want you getting it stuck. The baby cutter may only punch a little hole and not do much for the root problem.

That was then, Dad did it by feel and knew from experience what was down there. Today, they use cameras. You need this camera inspection done, as mentioned many times above.

A few things:
Washer
The theory about the washer and venting is worth a little look. Today's washers push more water than ever. I think that's why you see it with the washer -- they force feed more water than a kitchen sink or shower could ever do. I think it is just the volume exposing the problem and not the actual laundry vent, but it could be related.

Ceramic Pipe
Gumby mentioned this, and I think he is spot on. OP: you live in an area that traditionally used this kind of sectioned pipe well into the end of the 20th century. They tar and mortar the sections. Roots find no problems getting through those sections. I'm going to bet it is roots on old ceramic lateral. A "lateral" is the the trade term for the pipe from the house to the street.

Rodding vs Replacement
Should the camera inspection show roots at a ceramic joint, the rod with the big cutter can clear you and give you time to breathe. But you'll probably have to bite the bullet some day. Depending on length and depth, the job can be $500 to $15000. Good luck.

Collapse at Sewer Main Connection
My neighborhood has all plastic laterals. As long as the plumber glued it correctly, roots are not an issue. A forgotten glue joint can get invaded however. Anyway, some neighbors have seen a problem where the lateral connected to the main sewer broke off, causing problems like you see. This can be determined by inspection. In my city, this is the city's responsibility. The city will confer with the plumbing company to take responsibility. In other cities, it is all on the homeowner, which I think is crazy.

Good luck!

 

[Jerry1]

Thanks for all the advice. I’ll discuss with SIL. I think the camera is the next best step. I was hoping for something like a venting issue, but hope is not a great strategy. It might take a little while but I’ll report back. Thanks.

 

[skyking1]

Jerry, it is easy to test with the laundry sink. cork it and fill with about 5 gallons of water, and be prepared to temporarily cap the floor drain with a plastic lid.
Release the water!
If plain water backs up, you know your problem is downstream and has nothing to do with laundry suds.
If it takes the 5, try it with more.

 

[eytonxav]

Clogged vent stack(s) can also result in backups.

 

[ERD50]

I agree with others that you probably need to get someone with a camera down there, so you know what you are dealing with - too much guess work otherwise.

However, I'm trying to understand this...

... The floor drain in the basement backs up when she does laundry. Her washer drains into a laundry tub that drains to the sewer. The floor drain is in the same area as the washer (a small laundry room in the basement). ....

Unless we are talking a shallow basement (raised 1st floor), the washer/tub would be draining into a pit with a utility pump to pump the water up and out. Is that the situation?

In that case, venting might be an issue, the pump can't pump out if it can't get air in to replace the volume (on 2nd thought, it would probably just cause a 'gurgling' in that floor drain, sucking out the trap to pull in air). So that would seem to exclude a venting issue, and I doubt snaking the drain line would have much effect in that case.

Money is still on tree roots. But the camera will tell you for sure.

Do they have a water softener? Those dump a lot of (salty/corrosive) water when they recharge - you don't want that backing up in the middle of the night (when they run). At least with the laundry, someone is around to catch the problem before it creates too much mess.

-ERD50

 

[Jerry1]

No pump and city water and sewer. The washer drains into a laundry tub (a big sink) which drains into the sewer. A couple feet away is a floor drain. That’s where the backup appears. So, the water goes down the sink into a drain pipe but the backup shows up at the floor drain a few feet away.

 

[ERD50]

No pump and city water and sewer. The washer drains into a laundry tub (a big sink) which drains into the sewer. A couple feet away is a floor drain. That’s where the backup appears. So, the water goes down the sink into a drain pipe but the backup shows up at the floor drain a few feet away.

Well, that's interesting. You may have a blockage very near the washer/tub then, and not a tree root problem outside the home. Here's why:

That floor drain would be the lowest point in the drain system. If it was blocked outside the home, then any large amount of water flow would also cause that floor drain to back up.

Now, maybe laundry is the largest/fastest water volume it sees, or maybe no one notices the drain backing up if they are upstairs. But maybe try filling some sinks/bathtub, maybe fill some buckets, and draining them and flushing toilets all quickly from above as someone watches that drain.

If it can handle a lot of water from other sources, that would indicate the blockage is near the washer/tub, and not in the common drain pipe.

Good luck.

-ERD50

 

[JoeWras]

Well, that's interesting. You may have a blockage very near the washer/tub then, and not a tree root problem outside the home. Here's why:

That floor drain would be the lowest point in the drain system. If it was blocked outside the home, then any large amount of water flow would also cause that floor drain to back up.

Now, maybe laundry is the largest/fastest water volume it sees, or maybe no one notices the drain backing up if they are upstairs. But maybe try filling some sinks/bathtub, maybe fill some buckets, and draining them and flushing toilets all quickly from above as someone watches that drain.

If it can handle a lot of water from other sources, that would indicate the blockage is near the washer/tub, and not in the common drain pipe.

Good luck.

-ERD50

Yeah! Could be a local clog.

 

[Jerry1]

Well, that's interesting. You may have a blockage very near the washer/tub then, and not a tree root problem outside the home. Here's why:

That floor drain would be the lowest point in the drain system. If it was blocked outside the home, then any large amount of water flow would also cause that floor drain to back up.

Now, maybe laundry is the largest/fastest water volume it sees, or maybe no one notices the drain backing up if they are upstairs. But maybe try filling some sinks/bathtub, maybe fill some buckets, and draining them and flushing toilets all quickly from above as someone watches that drain.

If it can handle a lot of water from other sources, that would indicate the blockage is near the washer/tub, and not in the common drain pipe.

Good luck.

-ERD50

Good point. Easy to do. Thanks.

 

[MC Rider]

One more vote for run the camera and see what is going on since it keeps clogging. Don't guess and throw parts and labor at it.

 

[Walt34]

The floor drain in the basement backs up when she does laundry. Her washer drains into a laundry tub that drains to the sewer. The floor drain is in the same area as the washer (a small laundry room in the basement).

I had the same issue with our old house in the D.C. area, although the floor drain never actually backed up and flooded. But I could hear the water gurgling and see the water rising in the vertical section of the floor drain. So several times (about three, maybe four, in the 16 years I was there) I called a plumber to snake the line and that made it better but never really resolved the issue. The setup was the same, with the washer and dryer in the basement, the washer draining into one of those old concrete utility sinks. (One plumber commented "Those old-time plumbers must have been really strong".) That house was built in late 1959 (it had an inspection tag dated "Sept. 1959" on the gas meter) so anything was possible.

We resolved the issue by moving. Shortly before we listed the house for sale I had a plumber snake the drain one last time so I could sell it with as clear a conscience as possible, but I never did learn if that was actually a problem in the making or was just a characteristic of the plumbing. Like I said, it never flooded but the gurgling was worrisome.

 

[Jerry1]

We resolved the issue by moving.

LOL, I think one of my neighbors did the same thing. There was a plumber there before he moved out. Since the new family moved in, there been at least 4 times in just a couple years that the plumber has been back out.

Agee with the camera - need to know what’s going on. A snake isn’t solving the problem.