Stealth Wealth

[youbet]

Who does not have access to a good education in the US?

Those who dwell where the public school system sucks and that cannot afford a private education.

 

[TheWizard]

Only a very few know my financial situation - no one else would believe it. Some suspect and have made comments, but no one would guess the size of the truth. For some years now, I have carved out and achieved a life situation that is completely different from the one I was destined to lead. The correlation with happiness is loose however (as we know, beyond a certain point....) I had to laugh at something David Lee Roth once said "money may not buy me happiness, but it can buy me a yacht which I can park right next to happiness"

Ok, but your fellow mariners who see you on your yacht must have some idea of your wealth, no?

 

[Koolau]

Those who dwell where the public school system sucks and that cannot afford a private education.

Some of our schools allow students to speak pigeon English (and even participate in such language.) Difficult to learn in such an environment.

 

[Texas Proud]

Did you see the new, special edition Mustang GTD that Ford announced this week? $300K. If we were younger I told my wife we would get it and store it for the inevitable rise in value, when nostalgia seekers are looking for classic ICE vehicles when they aren't available. But we have the classic dilemma. In our younger days we didn't have the money to do such a thing, while in our older we don't have the time to wait out the likely increase in value.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44840269/2025-ford-mustang-gtd-revealed/

Sounds to me like Red Barchetta....


https://www.rush.com/songs/red-barchetta/

 

[brucethebroker]

Older me now craves simplicity and efficiency. Older me has figured out that money (and the stuff it can buy) doesn't necessarily make you happier, but used properly it can smooth over a great many of life's rough edges. Older me has learned that is its best purpose.

well said.

 

[SunnyOne]

LateToFire - yes!!

 

[Koolau]

I know EXACTLY what you mean! Ain't that a paradox. Work insanely hard all your life so you can acquire stuff, that turns out you don't really even want. I'm seriously not complaining - I am quite grateful I can "afford" just about anything within reason.

In my early adult years, I was eager to acquire the good stuff to go with the good life and all the markers of success. Now, older me is far more selective. It's not that I'm not willing to spend - it's that far more of my expenditures are on home, services, and experiences - basically things that make my life more comfortable, more secure, and more enjoyable. I have developed a real fear of my possessions owning me, rather than me owning my possessions, perhaps because I've been there, done that a few times.

Older me now craves simplicity and efficiency. Older me has figured out that money (and the stuff it can buy) doesn't necessarily make you happier, but used properly it can smooth over a great many of life's rough edges. Older me has learned that is its best purpose.

I'm putting this post up as "post of the week." It certainly tells my story and helps me to summarize my feelings about the wealth that I've been granted. The last paragraph, as others have pointed out, is a masterpiece of simplicity and truth for me. YMMV

 

[COcheesehead]

I learned long ago that money spent on what you value is always money well spent.

 

[ychuck46]

Sounds to me like Red Barchetta....


https://www.rush.com/songs/red-barchetta/

Funny, a neighbor mentioned this to me last night when we were talking and I raised the new Mustang. He said Rush and Red Barchetta. Had to look it up. Neat take.

 

[socca]

A relative recently announced that she cancelled her order for a new car because "she can't afford it". This is despite having sufficient assets to buy a car factory (ok, not quite, but close enough ). I learned long ago that this relative is happiest in an environment of artificial financial scarcity, so I maintain her working checking account at around $10k and leave the rest in a brokerage account. Her brokerage account balance is so large that she doesn't seem able to process it. She spent many years as a near-starving artist (but relatively successful, as artists go) before hitting the financial jackpot with a strategic second marriage. OK, whatever works!

 

[Gumby]

While I have a large brokerage account, I also keep my checking account balance fairly low, and I note that it does have a psychological effect on spending.

 

[LateToFIRE]

Did you see the new, special edition Mustang GTD that Ford announced this week? $300K. If we were younger I told my wife we would get it and store it for the inevitable rise in value, when nostalgia seekers are looking for classic ICE vehicles when they aren't available. But we have the classic dilemma. In our younger days we didn't have the money to do such a thing, while in our older we don't have the time to wait out the likely increase in value.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44840269/2025-ford-mustang-gtd-revealed/

Oh my word!!! No, I had not seen that yet. That looks INSANE, like inspired by Transformers (in a good but completely excessive over the top kinda way).

FYI, I met a guy, like a really really rich guy I did some work for a few years ago who would do about exactly what you're talking about. The guy had a temp controlled, high security garage built that could hold dozens of special edition cars and he would just put them away on blocks for years and then sell them at a crazy profit. This was his side gig . Completely self-made by the way - one of the smartest, craftiest dudes I ever met.

P.S. I just realized when I wrote the above. I've met some crazy rich folks in my time and quite often they have side gigs that make serious amounts of money, like a million or two a year, almost as a hobby. I've seen everything ranging from dealing in special cars, like the above example, to art dealing, r.e. flipping, horse breeding, etc. I guess they just love to deal.

 

[Koolau]

Wow. For $300K I could buy a Z06 Vette AND a couple of entry level Vettes to fill my 3 car garage (I don't actually have such a garage.) Heh, heh, I think I'll just keep my RAV 4 and enjoy the Vettes from afar. YMMV

 

[38Chevy454]

You won't be able to come close to buying one of those Mustang GTD for $300K. Between very limited production, pre-allocated sales, and dealer greed, my guess is better have $500K ready. It's an instant collector vehicle. Like the new Ford GT-40 was as soon as they were sold.

Just look at the new Corvette Z06 and how much they are going for. The GTD is way less production.

 

[jollystomper]

While I have a large brokerage account, I also keep my checking account balance fairly low, and I note that it does have a psychological effect on spending.

I agree. When we first started budgeting 30 years ago, DW and I agreed to treat our checking account (which we maintain enough to cover our regular bills) as if it had $1,000 less than the balance. This is a "buffer" against overdrawn situations. We track it this way in Quicken - the grand is in a "reserve" account. For example, right now our checking account is "overdrawn" by $10. In truth the balance s $990, but we have do it for so long we still think about being careful to spend until my pension payment hits in a week. Just like my habit of not being able to leave the house without a handkerchief in a pocket, it is a hard one to break .

 

[HMMY]

Having spent a lifetime traversing the terrain between poverty and wealth, I have had the opportunity to make some observations. My thinking on economic mobility (in the U.S.) has evolved greatly during this voyage.

In my ambitious early years, I was super-confident that whatever impediments might get in my way, that I would be able to smash through barriers and succeed regardless. I have largely done so, though it has been much much harder than I could have possibly imagined. Now, looking back on it all, I see that I wove a frighteningly narrow path through many obstacles, any one of which could have represented a permanent setback. Through determination, persistence, and grit I made it through tough times, setbacks, and obstacles.

So, it would be easy for me to sit hear and say that everyone has the ability to "pull themselves up by the bootstraps" or say "opportunity is there for the taking" or some other platitude about how less fortunate only have themselves to blame. Younger me might have said some of those things in the past. And I do wonder, if I had not believed I could make it, would I have even tried. So, that gun-ho thinking served a purpose.

But, older me has come to see the world in a far more nuanced light. There are dark forces like racism, sexism, age-ism, and other -ism's that represent very real, though invisible systemic barriers. If you're not personally affected by any of these -ism's, then you generally don't see them at work - the playing field looks level to you. Why don't these people stop their whining and just do the work like you did. Easy to say after you've won the game.

What I've come to see is that we all start out with different advantages and disadvantages. We tend to discount the advantages (oh that had nothing to do with my success) and focus on the disadvantages, patting ourselves on the back for all that we overcame - with some looking down on those who didn't make it as far as if it is largely their own fault.

Older me, tries to acknowledge just how extraordinarily fortunate I am. Sure, I had a rough beginning, and sure, I worked my butt off, and many a time picked myself up, dusted myself off, and kept plugging away, but I now entertain the possibility that I am supremely fortunate because I was gifted with the strength and ability to do that. That's pure luck - to be born healthy, educated to learn, and raised to aspire.

Anyhow - what I've come to see is the degree to which fortune plays a huge role in our success. Yes, people can do much to help themselves. But, often, if they are not born into the right circumstances, they don't know what they don't know. And our society is geared more towards keeping them ignorant than helping them succeed.

Well said. Young me thought I did it all on my own, but old me realizes that not everyone has the same advantages or opportunities. My parents moved us out of a neighborhood where 50% don't go to college to a neighborhood zoned for a school where almost 100% attend a 4-yr university. My peer group went from kids likely to have kids while still kids to those trying to get into the best schools.

 

[aja8888]

Wow. For $300K I could buy a Z06 Vette AND a couple of entry level Vettes to fill my 3 car garage (I don't actually have such a garage.) Heh, heh, I think I'll just keep my RAV 4 and enjoy the Vettes from afar. YMMV

A Z06 I saw at the dealer yesterday when I was picking up my Bolt was tagged at $146,000.

 

[Koolau]

A Z06 I saw at the dealer yesterday when I was picking up my Bolt was tagged at $146,000.

Yeah, the "also ran" Vette is like $75K. So two of those (in different colors) would get you to $300K.

 

[jollystomper]

Having spent a lifetime traversing the terrain between poverty and wealth, I have had the opportunity to make some observations. My thinking on economic mobility (in the U.S.) has evolved greatly during this voyage.

In my ambitious early years, I was super-confident that whatever impediments might get in my way, that I would be able to smash through barriers and succeed regardless. I have largely done so, though it has been much much harder than I could have possibly imagined. Now, looking back on it all, I see that I wove a frighteningly narrow path through many obstacles, any one of which could have represented a permanent setback. Through determination, persistence, and grit I made it through tough times, setbacks, and obstacles.

So, it would be easy for me to sit hear and say that everyone has the ability to "pull themselves up by the bootstraps" or say "opportunity is there for the taking" or some other platitude about how less fortunate only have themselves to blame. Younger me might have said some of those things in the past. And I do wonder, if I had not believed I could make it, would I have even tried. So, that gun-ho thinking served a purpose.

But, older me has come to see the world in a far more nuanced light. There are dark forces like racism, sexism, age-ism, and other -ism's that represent very real, though invisible systemic barriers. If you're not personally affected by any of these -ism's, then you generally don't see them at work - the playing field looks level to you. Why don't these people stop their whining and just do the work like you did. Easy to say after you've won the game.

What I've come to see is that we all start out with different advantages and disadvantages. We tend to discount the advantages (oh that had nothing to do with my success) and focus on the disadvantages, patting ourselves on the back for all that we overcame - with some looking down on those who didn't make it as far as if it is largely their own fault.

Older me, tries to acknowledge just how extraordinarily fortunate I am. Sure, I had a rough beginning, and sure, I worked my butt off, and many a time picked myself up, dusted myself off, and kept plugging away, but I now entertain the possibility that I am supremely fortunate because I was gifted with the strength and ability to do that. That's pure luck - to be born healthy, educated to learn, and raised to aspire.

Anyhow - what I've come to see is the degree to which fortune plays a huge role in our success. Yes, people can do much to help themselves. But, often, if they are not born into the right circumstances, they don't know what they don't know. And our society is geared more towards keeping them ignorant than helping them succeed.

While I agree with most of this, I believe there is a factor that I have not seen mentioned by name (perhaps it has been alluded to) in this thread. That factor, regardless of whether one feels success is due to talent, luck, where they born, etc., is something that one can control.

The factor: behavior.

I am going to cast it in "wealth" terms. In order to start growing and saving, regardless of where we started in life, we had to choose to behave a certain way, a way that is probably consistent across race, class, etc. spending less than what we made and being disciplined with how we choose to use money are the foundation. Choosing to do those things brings a lot of other related behaviors into play. That is why people can come from different backgrounds and achieve - despite where they started, they pursued those common behaviors.

The lottery winners who find themselves broke after a few years are almost always there not due to bad investments but bad behavior with money. The athletes who go broke get there because of the behavior they chose.

Someone mentioned earlier in the thread how come the immigrants they encountered who started with nothing succeeded, and others did not. I think a factor was the behavior the former group chose.

My point is, you can expose someone to all of the opportunities and tools that exist... but unless you also discuss the behavior necessary to increase the odds of using those opportunities, it will not matter. But - changing one's behavior can be the most difficult thing of all. And unfortunately, in some cases, those wanting to pursue those behaviors are pressured not to do so, for various reasons.

When I have participated in initiatives meant to expand opportunities for others, I always ask "how will this influence their behavior in the long run to truly take advantage of it? Often the response I receive is "we will worry about that later, we just need to get the resources to them". My response, for better or worse, has been "that is like giving someone lottery money and expecting that alone to make them conversant in financial stewardship".

 

[Time2]

I'm wondering if the decline of the middle class is a bit over-rated? While, people are dropping out of it by becoming poorer, they're also rising above it, by becoming wealthier...

I wonder how the change in the family structure is incorporated into the above numbers? I would expect a married couple to have a better chance of having a middle class income than a single parent, and there are more single parent homes now than earlier. And also more alternative type families. Just wonder how all that affects the decline is the middle class.

 

[TheWizard]

Jollystomper's post about Behavior was exactly my point in an earlier reply that I made regarding Financial Literacy.
You can teach quite a bit about all different aspects of FL to high school seniors in a one semester course.
But I would not expect most of them to actually be LBYM within a few years of starting full-time employment...

 

[TheWizard]

I agree. When we first started budgeting 30 years ago, DW and I agreed to treat our checking account (which we maintain enough to cover our regular bills) as if it had $1,000 less than the balance. This is a "buffer" against overdrawn situations. We track it this way in Quicken - the grand is in a "reserve" account. For example, right now our checking account is "overdrawn" by $10. In truth the balance s $990, but we have do it for so long we still think about being careful to spend until my pension payment hits in a week. Just like my habit of not being able to leave the house without a handkerchief in a pocket, it is a hard one to break .

Sounds like an unnecessary MIND GAME to me, especially after a few decades of successful money management.
I keep a fairly large target amount in checking and don't think it gives me any incentive to spend it frivolously.

And much of my spending is done with CCs anyway, not cash or check up front.

One quirk that I do have is that I pay off my CC BALANCES twice a month, as income hits my checking account.
This is because I move excess $$ from checking to my taxable account settlement fund and it's not "excess" if I have unpaid bills...

 

[SunGuy]

I have not achieved being wealthy yet, but that is always the goal. To not appear wealthy.

I grew up around those types of people and always saw how much time/effort they had to put into their appearance, and how much energy was spent on protecting their hoard.

 

[LateToFIRE]

While I agree with most of this, I believe there is a factor that I have not seen mentioned by name (perhaps it has been alluded to) in this thread. That factor, regardless of whether one feels success is due to talent, luck, where they born, etc., is something that one can control.

The factor: behavior.

I am going to cast it in "wealth" terms. In order to start growing and saving, regardless of where we started in life, we had to choose to behave a certain way, a way that is probably consistent across race, class, etc. spending less than what we made and being disciplined with how we choose to use money are the foundation. Choosing to do those things brings a lot of other related behaviors into play. That is why people can come from different backgrounds and achieve - despite where they started, they pursued those common behaviors.

The lottery winners who find themselves broke after a few years are almost always there not due to bad investments but bad behavior with money. The athletes who go broke get there because of the behavior they chose.

Someone mentioned earlier in the thread how come the immigrants they encountered who started with nothing succeeded, and others did not. I think a factor was the behavior the former group chose.

My point is, you can expose someone to all of the opportunities and tools that exist... but unless you also discuss the behavior necessary to increase the odds of using those opportunities, it will not matter. But - changing one's behavior can be the most difficult thing of all. And unfortunately, in some cases, those wanting to pursue those behaviors are pressured not to do so, for various reasons.

When I have participated in initiatives meant to expand opportunities for others, I always ask "how will this influence their behavior in the long run to truly take advantage of it? Often the response I receive is "we will worry about that later, we just need to get the resources to them". My response, for better or worse, has been "that is like giving someone lottery money and expecting that alone to make them conversant in financial stewardship".

I read and reread this a couple of times. It makes sense because you acknowledged that behavior is a difficult thing to change. In fact, I have come to realize that quite often, people are not entirely in control of their behavior - much of it is ingrained by environment, culture and societal/social expectations. None of us is an entirely rational being. And some folks face an entirely different set of opportunities, disadvantages, etc. than others (which in turn drives their behavior).

In the poverty-strewn environ of my youth, I was surrounded by incredibly destructive behaviors - it was an extreme environment. Drug use was rampant, crime was ever-present, education was a joke. Thankfully, my family was more or less passing through, the hardship was a long one, but things got better for us bit by bit, and we eventually moved to better circumstances. Looking back, I used to wonder what separated me from the other kids - why was my behavior so starkly different from theirs?

In hindsight, I can see that I came from a different culture. My mom had a college education. My dad was military (though he did not adapt to post-military life very well). My parents did everything they could to insure that I would have a better life than what I was born into. Others did not have that kind of motivation - they were stuck in generational behavior patterns not of their own making. I can't blame them for not seeing the forest for the trees - their behavior was reinforced by the circumstances that surrounded them.

It's an interesting "food for thought" topic.

 

[LateToFIRE]

As I was recounting my "poverty-strewn" early years, I came to a long-forgotten thought. I've lived with in rural poverty, as well as urban poverty. At some point my parents decided things would be better in the city - I guess my father was looking for work. Well, in the urban situation, the thing I was recalling was how focused the other kids were on material/image things. None of us had much money, but oh boy, if you weren't wearing the right basketball shoes or made some other fashion mistake, you'd get picked on (more like abused) relentlessly. The bullies would scrutinize everyone just looking for a reason to make you the center of their scorn.

Later, as a teen, I attended more suburban schools, and sure there was some fashion conformity expected, but nowhere near what I had previously experienced. What strikes me is how the worse off people were economically, the more pressure there was to conform to a set of materialistic standards. Nowadays, I have no hesitation about going to the local upscale grocery store in my yard-work clothes. I don't care whether or not people think I'm rich or poor. But, back in my old hood, I'd probably care a lot more.

This might be specific to my experience. Just recalling some strange behavior patterns. Not what one would expect. Kinda relates to the stealth topic. Maybe being comfortable being stealthy is a bit of luxury? I'm not sure.