Stealth Wealth

^^^+1. Clothes logos play this game and feed that hierarchy precisely. Eventually, wealthy people either just don’t care or they buy high quality with no logos at all. The wealthiest old guy from old money at my yoga class wears stuff that looks like it came from Good Will. He’s been wealthy since birth and simply does not care.
 
When I was a kid, we were too poor to buy the "proper" clothes, and when I finally had money of my own, I didn't want to buy them. I did have relatively expensive suits when I worked as a lawyer, but it is like a uniform, and if you choose well, you can wear them for decades. Now I wear plain color, no graphics, cheap T-shirts and shorts in the summer and jeans and flannel shirts (usually bought at Goodwill) in the winter. Except when I go to church. Then, I wear a pair of khaki pants and either a polo shirt or one of my remaining blue button collar dress shirts.
 
^^^+1. Clothes logos play this game and feed that hierarchy precisely. Eventually, wealthy people either just don’t care or they buy high quality with no logos at all. The wealthiest old guy from old money at my yoga class wears stuff that looks like it came from Good Will. He’s been wealthy since birth and simply does not care.

+1, To your point, I much prefer clothes without any logos, sometimes hard to avoid with athleisure-wear. Of course, humans being humans will find other ways to flag their position. My theory is that it's not that wealthy people don't care about flashing status, it's that it's simply not very relevant or necessary in the circles they inhabit. In your example, you (and probably others too) know that old-old-money guy is rich. He doesn't need to outwardly indicate his position - the people who might matter to him know who and what he is.

Maybe, because the poor kids I grew up with had little else by way of status or agency, perhaps that drove their relentless focus on the outward projection of power and status (or at least their celebrity-media-warped image of what that looks like). Interestingly, rural poor is very different from that - more focus on no one standing out or looking too big for their britches - a whole other topic. Again, YMMV, I'm hesitant to generalize too much because my experiences may simply be isolated ones.
 
When I was a kid, we were too poor to buy the "proper" clothes...

Most of my childhood clothes came from KMart, may it rest in peace. To my young eyes, that vast discount wonderland contained everything I could ever want in life - clothes, sporting goods, & guns.
 
Sounds like an unnecessary MIND GAME to me, especially after a few decades of successful money management.
I keep a fairly large target amount in checking and don't think it gives me any incentive to spend it frivolously.

And much of my spending is done with CCs anyway, not cash or check up front.

One quirk that I do have is that I pay off my CC BALANCES twice a month, as income hits my checking account.
This is because I move excess $$ from checking to my taxable account settlement fund and it's not "excess" if I have unpaid bills...


"unnecessary MIND GAME"? Heh, heh, it certainly has w*rked for jollystomper! I'm sure it's unnecessary for you but it w*rks for some of us.

My philosophy on money management: What ever w*rks for you. YMMV
 
I wonder how the change in the family structure is incorporated into the above numbers? I would expect a married couple to have a better chance of having a middle class income than a single parent, and there are more single parent homes now than earlier. And also more alternative type families. Just wonder how all that affects the decline is the middle class.


Yeah, it would be a fascinating discussion, but would end up in bacon real soon.
 
I wonder how the change in the family structure is incorporated into the above numbers? I would expect a married couple to have a better chance of having a middle class income than a single parent, and there are more single parent homes now than earlier. And also more alternative type families. Just wonder how all that affects the decline is the middle class.
When I look at the graphic, it says that the income is "size-adjusted household income". The way the census bureau does this adjustment is to proportion the income by the square root of the number of people in it. Thus, a 4 person household making $20,000 per year is equivalent to a 3 person household making $17,320 per year, is equivalent to a 2 person household $14,142 per year, is equivalent to a one person household making $10,000 per year.
 
I read and reread this a couple of times. It makes sense because you acknowledged that behavior is a difficult thing to change. In fact, I have come to realize that quite often, people are not entirely in control of their behavior - much of it is ingrained by environment, culture and societal/social expectations. None of us is an entirely rational being. And some folks face an entirely different set of opportunities, disadvantages, etc. than others (which in turn drives their behavior).

In the poverty-strewn environ of my youth, I was surrounded by incredibly destructive behaviors - it was an extreme environment. Drug use was rampant, crime was ever-present, education was a joke. Thankfully, my family was more or less passing through, the hardship was a long one, but things got better for us bit by bit, and we eventually moved to better circumstances. Looking back, I used to wonder what separated me from the other kids - why was my behavior so starkly different from theirs?

In hindsight, I can see that I came from a different culture. My mom had a college education. My dad was military (though he did not adapt to post-military life very well). My parents did everything they could to insure that I would have a better life than what I was born into. Others did not have that kind of motivation - they were stuck in generational behavior patterns not of their own making. I can't blame them for not seeing the forest for the trees - their behavior was reinforced by the circumstances that surrounded them.

It's an interesting "food for thought" topic.

My growing up had a similar background. My parents were immigrants, English was not my dad's native language, and for the first 15 years in America we lived in a slum (so bad that the block I spent my first 11 years on has since been razed). My dad had a high school education, my mom did not even have that. Crime, drugs,gangs, and vermin abounded. Of probably a dozen of my friends I had at the time, only one other had a father who lived with them.

Why even come to the U.S, in the 1950s, at a time of much greater discrimination and racism than today, knowing that you could only afford to live in a ghetto? My dad said, in sum, "people from the U.S. would come to our country and complain how bad things were there. But they still had more than we did. And they were not skilled workers. I felt I could make it there and provide better for our family as I knew I could work hard to gain whatever skills were needed" (I am so glad I recorded him saying that before he died, it has made an impression on my children and his other grandchildren).

My parents had to battle both the bad behaviors, as well as the well meaning but bad advice given by those purporting to help (such as a government social worker telling my to dad to move out the apartment so that his wife and kids could go on welfare and get better health care). They both taught responsible behavior (much of it faith based), and we saw them actually trying to behave like that. The phrase, when raising children, of "more is caught than taught", rings true. My parents also taught us that life is not fair but that does not justify not trying, and that there are no guarantees beyond taxes, death, and trouble, but you can do things to increase your odds towards a better way.

We are not unique. I know of many families, both immigrant and non-immigrant, who chose that way. In my experience, the most consistent action was seeing what others had that you wanted and not lamenting that you did not have it, but trying to figure out how they got there so that you could try the same thing.

Even then, I had to battle emulating bad behavior. But somehow I had the "gift" of seeing bad things happen to people around me, and assuming that would happen to me if I went down that path. Every time someone offered me drugs, the image of the addict (we called them "junkies" back them) I came across coming home from grade school one day in our apartment hallway, who had a needle in his arm and I thought was sleeping but was actually dead, came to mind.

But eventually you have to own your own behavior, and make the right choices. The first time I really was away from home was in college. I will not forget making friends with a guy who had such a similar background as I did - we literally grew up a few blocks from each other, his parents were also immigrants who emphasized behavior and education, etc. But after our first term at a Ivy League school, I had a B average, he had a C and 3 F's. He chose to enjoy the "freedom" of being away from home and fell into all sorts of bad behavior that he put ahead of going to class. Several of us tried to help him in the next term - but he just stopped going to classes, and began to resent me (and others) because he wanted us to help him in ways different than how we wanted to help him (he wanted to cheat).

With all this, there are no guarantees. If right after college you told me that I could be FIREd by 60, I would had laughed, much in the way that I laughed at first when my high school guidance counselor told me to apply to Ivy League schools. But I still knew I wanted a solid financial foundation... and pursuing that is what eventually led to give me an chance to FIRE.These days I believe folks confuse "opportunities" with "guarantees". Even changing your behavior will not guarantee the best outcome. But it increases the odds, and sometimes changing the behavior opens up opportunities that you would have not seen otherwise.
 
Most of my childhood clothes came from KMart, may it rest in peace. To my young eyes, that vast discount wonderland contained everything I could ever want in life - clothes, sporting goods, & guns.

Loved their Athletech brand. Still have a number of their running suits and shirts; they wear like iron. I have a number of solid colored t-shirts that I pick up now at Walmart during their clearance sales, so they have become my KMart after the demise of that chain. Many cost me ~$4, and even the lightweight long sleeve ones can be gotten real cheap at their end of summer sales, about $5-6.
 
Speaking of being poor immigrants and 'branded' clothing...

When we arrived in the US on a cold day in February, upon being registered for school, we were given a list of school supplies, including gym wear. As my mom had no idea where to shop, and we had no car, we inadvertently ended-up in a nicer department store. She bought me the only $neaker$ available, which were Keds, with their distinctive blue label at the back of the sole. However, she forbade me to wear them with the logo. I spent a REALLY LOOONG time with an ink eraser (remember those? they were a bit more abrasive than the standard pink pencil eraser) abrading that vulcanized rubber label off the shoes.

That was my introduction to branded clothing! And I still dislike visible brands on my 'stuff'.

omni
 

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Speaking of being poor immigrants and 'branded' clothing...

That was my introduction to branded clothing! And I still dislike visible brands on my 'stuff'.

omni

Years ago, my father told me that he wasn’t going to be a walking billboard for a company without compensation. It changed my view on what is really happening with apparel brand labels.
 
Loved their Athletech brand. Still have a number of their running suits and shirts; they wear like iron. I have a number of solid colored t-shirts that I pick up now at Walmart during their clearance sales, so they have become my KMart after the demise of that chain. Many cost me ~$4, and even the lightweight long sleeve ones can be gotten real cheap at their end of summer sales, about $5-6.

Yup, Walmart has become my new Kmart. Doesn't quite feel the same though.
 
Years ago, my father told me that he wasn’t going to be a walking billboard for a company without compensation.

That has always puzzled me more than a little bit with t-shirts. "You want ME to pay YOU to advertise your product?"

Nope, not happening.
 
That has always puzzled me more than a little bit with t-shirts. "You want ME to pay YOU to advertise your product?"



Nope, not happening.



Not just apparel. I posted in the pet peeve thread my dislike of car dealers gluing their logo on the new car/truck I just spent five figures to acquire. They can’t be removed w/o damaging finish. Do I get a price cut for being their driving billboard? Nope[emoji34]
 
I read and reread this a couple of times. It makes sense because you acknowledged that behavior is a difficult thing to change. In fact, I have come to realize that quite often, people are not entirely in control of their behavior - much of it is ingrained by environment, culture and societal/social expectations. None of us is an entirely rational being. And some folks face an entirely different set of opportunities, disadvantages, etc. than others (which in turn drives their behavior).

In the poverty-strewn environ of my youth, I was surrounded by incredibly destructive behaviors - it was an extreme environment. Drug use was rampant, crime was ever-present, education was a joke. Thankfully, my family was more or less passing through, the hardship was a long one, but things got better for us bit by bit, and we eventually moved to better circumstances. Looking back, I used to wonder what separated me from the other kids - why was my behavior so starkly different from theirs?

In hindsight, I can see that I came from a different culture. My mom had a college education. My dad was military (though he did not adapt to post-military life very well). My parents did everything they could to insure that I would have a better life than what I was born into. Others did not have that kind of motivation - they were stuck in generational behavior patterns not of their own making. I can't blame them for not seeing the forest for the trees - their behavior was reinforced by the circumstances that surrounded them.

It's an interesting "food for thought" topic.



Couldn’t agree more! This about nails it. Having been raised in a poverty stricken environment, albeit one with many strivers, I can say confidently that there are many factors influencing the path one takes and it’s not always the choices made or not made. Sometimes they are made for us based on the cultural and social influences around us and innate factors driving our behaviors.
 
I was just talking to my oldest sister about something else and the amount of money came up...



She never knew how much my mom had... mom always looked like she got her clothes from a thrift store... and never did buy anything expensive... I had tried to have her buy a nicer car when buying her last car... but failed..


But sis said that when we put mom into a home that she was worried about running out of money... I said that is not a problem.. she never asked...


When she passed all siblings and grand kids were surprised how much they received.. I was the only one who knew...


You can be very stealthy...
 
My growing up had a similar background. My parents were immigrants, English was not my dad's native language, and for the first 15 years in America we lived in a slum (so bad that the block I spent my first 11 years on has since been razed). My dad had a high school education, my mom did not even have that. Crime, drugs,gangs, and vermin abounded. Of probably a dozen of my friends I had at the time, only one other had a father who lived with them.

Why even come to the U.S, in the 1950s, at a time of much greater discrimination and racism than today, knowing that you could only afford to live in a ghetto? My dad said, in sum, "people from the U.S. would come to our country and complain how bad things were there. But they still had more than we did. And they were not skilled workers. I felt I could make it there and provide better for our family as I knew I could work hard to gain whatever skills were needed" (I am so glad I recorded him saying that before he died, it has made an impression on my children and his other grandchildren).

My parents had to battle both the bad behaviors, as well as the well meaning but bad advice given by those purporting to help (such as a government social worker telling my to dad to move out the apartment so that his wife and kids could go on welfare and get better health care). They both taught responsible behavior (much of it faith based), and we saw them actually trying to behave like that. The phrase, when raising children, of "more is caught than taught", rings true. My parents also taught us that life is not fair but that does not justify not trying, and that there are no guarantees beyond taxes, death, and trouble, but you can do things to increase your odds towards a better way.

We are not unique. I know of many families, both immigrant and non-immigrant, who chose that way. In my experience, the most consistent action was seeing what others had that you wanted and not lamenting that you did not have it, but trying to figure out how they got there so that you could try the same thing.

Even then, I had to battle emulating bad behavior. But somehow I had the "gift" of seeing bad things happen to people around me, and assuming that would happen to me if I went down that path. Every time someone offered me drugs, the image of the addict (we called them "junkies" back them) I came across coming home from grade school one day in our apartment hallway, who had a needle in his arm and I thought was sleeping but was actually dead, came to mind.

But eventually you have to own your own behavior, and make the right choices. The first time I really was away from home was in college. I will not forget making friends with a guy who had such a similar background as I did - we literally grew up a few blocks from each other, his parents were also immigrants who emphasized behavior and education, etc. But after our first term at a Ivy League school, I had a B average, he had a C and 3 F's. He chose to enjoy the "freedom" of being away from home and fell into all sorts of bad behavior that he put ahead of going to class. Several of us tried to help him in the next term - but he just stopped going to classes, and began to resent me (and others) because he wanted us to help him in ways different than how we wanted to help him (he wanted to cheat).

With all this, there are no guarantees. If right after college you told me that I could be FIREd by 60, I would had laughed, much in the way that I laughed at first when my high school guidance counselor told me to apply to Ivy League schools. But I still knew I wanted a solid financial foundation... and pursuing that is what eventually led to give me an chance to FIRE.These days I believe folks confuse "opportunities" with "guarantees". Even changing your behavior will not guarantee the best outcome. But it increases the odds, and sometimes changing the behavior opens up opportunities that you would have not seen otherwise.


This should be required reading in schools (and welfare offices.)

Thank God you had an inner compass and parent-driven morality.

Thanks for sharing.
 
I wonder how the change in the family structure is incorporated into the above numbers? I would expect a married couple to have a better chance of having a middle class income than a single parent, and there are more single parent homes now than earlier. And also more alternative type families. Just wonder how all that affects the decline is the middle class.

A good portion of our wealth and cashflow ove the past 24 years has been renting 2 bedroom apartments. We offer clean, well maintained propertirs at a fair price; we always have someone on the waiting list. We had a tenant for 22 years and another for 16. Alas, my clientele is unmarried moms with one or two children to one or more men. I've seen it more times than I want to, and the children that have grown up in these situations, repeat the same bad behavior. I cannot see how they can ever break the cycle.

My daughter is a teacher at a nearby middle school. A few years ago, there were 4 kids in her class, same grade, who were half brother, half sister, and cousin to each other, involving 2 men and 2 women. It's nuts.
 
My growing up had a similar background. My parents were immigrants, English was not my dad's native language, and for the first 15 years in America we lived in a slum (so bad that the block I spent my first 11 years on has since been razed). My dad had a high school education, my mom did not even have that. Crime, drugs,gangs, and vermin abounded. Of probably a dozen of my friends I had at the time, only one other had a father who lived with them.

Why even come to the U.S, in the 1950s, at a time of much greater discrimination and racism than today, knowing that you could only afford to live in a ghetto? My dad said, in sum, "people from the U.S. would come to our country and complain how bad things were there. But they still had more than we did. And they were not skilled workers. I felt I could make it there and provide better for our family as I knew I could work hard to gain whatever skills were needed" (I am so glad I recorded him saying that before he died, it has made an impression on my children and his other grandchildren).

My parents had to battle both the bad behaviors, as well as the well meaning but bad advice given by those purporting to help (such as a government social worker telling my to dad to move out the apartment so that his wife and kids could go on welfare and get better health care). They both taught responsible behavior (much of it faith based), and we saw them actually trying to behave like that. The phrase, when raising children, of "more is caught than taught", rings true. My parents also taught us that life is not fair but that does not justify not trying, and that there are no guarantees beyond taxes, death, and trouble, but you can do things to increase your odds towards a better way.

We are not unique. I know of many families, both immigrant and non-immigrant, who chose that way. In my experience, the most consistent action was seeing what others had that you wanted and not lamenting that you did not have it, but trying to figure out how they got there so that you could try the same thing.

Even then, I had to battle emulating bad behavior. But somehow I had the "gift" of seeing bad things happen to people around me, and assuming that would happen to me if I went down that path. Every time someone offered me drugs, the image of the addict (we called them "junkies" back them) I came across coming home from grade school one day in our apartment hallway, who had a needle in his arm and I thought was sleeping but was actually dead, came to mind.

But eventually you have to own your own behavior, and make the right choices. The first time I really was away from home was in college. I will not forget making friends with a guy who had such a similar background as I did - we literally grew up a few blocks from each other, his parents were also immigrants who emphasized behavior and education, etc. But after our first term at a Ivy League school, I had a B average, he had a C and 3 F's. He chose to enjoy the "freedom" of being away from home and fell into all sorts of bad behavior that he put ahead of going to class. Several of us tried to help him in the next term - but he just stopped going to classes, and began to resent me (and others) because he wanted us to help him in ways different than how we wanted to help him (he wanted to cheat).

With all this, there are no guarantees. If right after college you told me that I could be FIREd by 60, I would had laughed, much in the way that I laughed at first when my high school guidance counselor told me to apply to Ivy League schools. But I still knew I wanted a solid financial foundation... and pursuing that is what eventually led to give me an chance to FIRE.These days I believe folks confuse "opportunities" with "guarantees". Even changing your behavior will not guarantee the best outcome. But it increases the odds, and sometimes changing the behavior opens up opportunities that you would have not seen otherwise.
Thanks!!
Your experience and journey are very inspiring.
 
A good portion of our wealth and cashflow ove the past 24 years has been renting 2 bedroom apartments. We offer clean, well maintained propertirs at a fair price; we always have someone on the waiting list. We had a tenant for 22 years and another for 16. Alas, my clientele is unmarried moms with one or two children to one or more men. I've seen it more times than I want to, and the children that have grown up in these situations, repeat the same bad behavior. I cannot see how they can ever break the cycle.

My daughter is a teacher at a nearby middle school. A few years ago, there were 4 kids in her class, same grade, who were half brother, half sister, and cousin to each other, involving 2 men and 2 women. It's nuts.


Off topic but it can be moved if more comments come...


My mom taught kindergarten... she taught 5 siblings from the same mom.. but 5 different fathers... they were on welfare and made 3X more than my mother's salary with all the benefits they received...


One time the mother came to school as her child got in trouble stealing... her comment to the child was not 'why did you steal' it was 'why did you get caught'.... it will be hard to break the cycle with this attitude...
 
Back to the original topic & hope we can stay there. This has been a great thread with many interesting perspectives.

The post & photo of Keds sneakers made me smile. When I was in high school many decades ago, wearing white Keds canvas sneakers (with colored knee socks!) was considered quite stylish. My family couldn't afford expensive anything, but I did want to look nice & spent my own money on a few things that made me feel good, including those Keds, which cost $5 (vs the $2 or $3 ones at Woolworth's). That was a real splurge (I've posted elsewhere about how much I would babysit @ 50 cents an hour to save for college, & I did save diligently). But for me those Keds were worth it, & I remember them fondly. I think in those days the logo on the back was solid blue -- very classy, I thought! I guess this is the opposite of stealth wealth, since by spending a little money I was trying to fit in.

Now that I can afford to buy almost anything I want, I still have a pair of Keds in my closet (which I bought cheaply on Ebay). Guess I'm still nostalgic about them.
 
I learned about Keds sneakers for the first time on this forum.

Youse guys are so trendy and fashionable, are you really practicing "stealth wealth"? :cool:

PS. When I was in middle school, I saved my money to acquire transmitting vacuum tubes like the 6146B below, not to get any clothes. Nobody knew about my stash of electronics stuff, while I considered myself very wealthy with the used parts I accumulated. I have always been stealthy.

51s-QVV2-eL._AC_UF894,1000_QL80_.jpg
 
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