6 stitches = $800

[lets-retire]

Look, this is a really good discussion to be having. EVERY voter should be examining these issues and priorities... You're right that if I'm broke my sister won't get her money back. But it's one thing to be broke because I spent the money on bulk rice and beans, or on doctor's bills... and another to be broke because I spent all, 1/2, 25%.. whatever.. on a useless new Hummer. In either case we're both in a pickle, but in the second scenario sis has a right to be majorly p*ssed-off.

Uh....the Hummer and the rest of the high priced tools are called force multipliers. They have a dual purpose one is to lower the number of military personnel in combat and as a result lower the number of casualties. The other is to make the military more effective. We could absolutely cut out many of the force multipliers, but that would mean a much larger and more expensive military. It would also mean more soldiers/airmen/sailors at risk of being killed or injured. So each worthless Hummer to speak about is actually saving the salary, benefits, and personnel equipment of about 40 soldiers.

 

[Texas Proud]

Ladel...

Yes, a good discussion.. I agree...

So lets go through a few of you comments... There are contracts out for defense.. and there are 'things' to maintain as long as we have them (ships, planes, tanks, nukes, etc etc..) you can not just stop paying for them.. there is committed money... my point is this is not discretionary in the terms you were using...

But, for SS... if all the federal politicians, including the prez, decided to pass a bill stopping SS next month... it COULD happen.. (yes, and all the air molecules in my room can congregate in one corner.. in theory..)... the checks would just stop... saving money like crazy.. no it could never really happen.. but there is no legal reason that it could not.. again, more than likely they will only cut benefits 15 to 25 percent...

Why do you think that your sister would not be pissed off that you wasted her money in either of your examples... you were supposed to pay her back. you did not.. OK, let's change it from 'sister' to megabank... now it does not matter what you spent it on... they want it back..

I am not arguing of waste in the universal health care... I am arguing that the level of service will suffer greatly... that the 'need' for medical will go up a lot.. that the cost will skyrocket... yes, there is waste, but there is waste in all programs... and even at mega corp...

I am actually sorry we are killing people... but, would you rather have them kill us?? With no response?? The Iraq war was 'won' quickly... with few casualties... but the tribal hatred over there will never be won... they are killing themselves.. and consider the killing rate of WWII... this is just a small skirmish compared to how many died every day then.. it could be much worse if we had to use 'old' weapons..

 

[ladelfina]

sorry let's retire, Hummer was a bad & confusing choice.. In my domestic scenario substitute "Lexus". I am happy for the Army to have Humvees!! I certainly did not mean to deny their usefulness in combat (just their usefulness in going back and forth to WalMart) ..not sure about the F-22s at $360,000,000+ each, tho'.

Tex.. I just think things have gotten out of control. The Iraqis weren't and aren't, as a whole, going to kill "us." The current terrorist insanity would be better served by better police-type and intel activites, not invasions. Hearts and minds, yeh?

But our dear leaders spend untold billions on full-scale wars while firing Arabic translators for being gay. These priorities are not mine.. like Mega-Bank.. I want my money back!!

I know a lot of these things are in the eye of the beholder. And that the "beholders" are getting more partisan and less rational. I hope not to fall into that trap. I want the government to address the REAL threats (a few hundred or thousand crazies that you can't root out with bombs) and not the fake ones. I want them to serve the people's REAL needs (like health-care reform, disaster planning) and not fake ones (outlawing horsemeat, flag-burning amendments). Then I would have a government I could be proud of.

 

[Texas Proud]

Lada...

I do have to agree with you on a few of you items... we have the most advanced jet fighters already.. and nobody is about to make one better than what we have... so why do we need more advanced ones? Got me...

And why do we need all these SUVs and Hummers?? Just gas guzzlers.. I wish they would have passed that carbon tax a few years back... for the people who wanted something for global warming.. you would have an income stream to work with..

And we have to stop those flag burning horse killing anti-gun commie right NOW!!! You just don't know the danger they present!!! :

 

[lets-retire]

Lada...

I do have to agree with you on a few of you items...  we have the most advanced jet fighters already.. and nobody is about to make one better than what we have... so why do we need more advanced ones?  Got me...

The EU is working on one that will be far superior to the ones we currently have. It is expected to be out within the next couple of years. I realize the EU is considered an ally, but since we cannot control who they sell their technology to, we must make sure we have the most capable equipment.

 

[ladelfina]

The horse meat thing could have something to do with hating the French!!  

(They eat horsemeat, but heck, in Italy it's right in the meat case, too..  next to the lamb's heads.. and we're the US's only big ally after the UK..!) Forza Italia!

P.S. and you DO know that real Bolognese mortadella is made from asino (i.e, donkey meat), right..?

More stream of consciousness: Romano Prodi's derogatory nickname here is "the Mortadella" -- he's from Bologna, soft, flabby, and squishy. The "asino" part may or may not be sub-intended.

Non si butta via niente!  (Waste nothing!)

The EU per se does not have a defense budget to date as far as I know.. calls have been made to establish one, funding it at about €200 million. ( koff kofff... compared with DoD budget request of $500 billion). Overall, EU countries spend 1.9% of GDP on defense, compared with America's 3.4%, according to The Economist. European defense contractors do have some joint ventures, but "the EU" is unlikely to act in lockstep in anything defense-related anytime soon.
http://www.economist.com/background/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5548061

But an Italian firm did get the contract for the newest 23 Marine One helicopters!!
Payback for help with those forged yellowcake documents?
God, I love Italy.. a conspiracy theory a minute.. and they're ALL true!

 

[azanon]

Hmmm, so you'd be willing to bank those healthcare premiums and chance the million dollar hospital bill that would wipe you out?  You'd be willing to forgo liability insurance and chance getting sued for millions?

I have health insurance.   (a truth, which should answer your question).

This is besides the point of my point.    He was referencing only an $800 dollar bill, as if that was unreasonable desite how much X-ray machines cost and the cost of training a medical doctor.  I thought it sounded pretty reasonable to me, especially considering his alternative; health insurance premiums.

Not true for health insurance.  The negotiated discount that health insurers receive is like a 50% off coupon.  Then the ins. co. pays their part and you pay your part (of the negotiated price).  The $800 ER bill will probably be $300-400 after the negotiated discount.

What i said was true.   If you're having to pay the full balance of your health insurance (meaning, unlike me where the Fed goverment pays about 75% of mine), you will come out ahead just banking the premiums and paying out of pocket when you do have an accident on average.   

What you said is besides the point.   Even if you only pay half of the bill, you are also paying health insurance premiums.    That would be far more cost than just not having health insurance at all, banking what you would pay for premiums, and just paying out of pocket for accidents;    again.... on average.     As i said, if this were not true, i'd be impossible for the insurance company to profit.

 

[azanon]

Keep in mind the poster above almost certainly has the best health-insurance YOUR tax dollars can provided. So while its a good idea for *you* to risk total financial ruin by being "below average", I don't beleive he is taking that same risk. Don't ou love when other people give you advice on how to run your life but do the opposite for themselves?

Hey chief, I'm a federal employee too and i also have the best insurance your money is providing for. Thanks.

Quote the part where i gave him advice. I could have swore i just made matter-of-fact statements.

 

[azanon]

Az was shooting his mouth off about having magical powers again, and I am surprised that these powers extend to the realm of whether or not you win the healthcare lottery.

Nope, you once again went off on a tangent Brewer, showing you still have a chip on your shoulder.

 

[Texas Proud]

The EU per se does not have a defense budget to date as far as I know.. calls have been made to establish one, funding it at about €200 million. ( koff kofff... compared with DoD budget request of $500 billion). Overall, EU countries spend 1.9% of GDP on defense, compared with America's 3.4%, according to The Economist.

Hot damn.... that is where I had it in my mind that we were below 5%... as a percent of GDP.. not the budget...  Thanks!!

And again from memory.. this is one of the lower levels in history...

 

[azanon]

Azanon, I usually just cruise on by posts like yours that I disagree with, but this one hit a nerve with me (no pun intended).  

Like you I felt I was "rarely worse than average on anything."  I'm not overweight, I don't smoke, I don't have high cholesterol, I exercise frequently and am in very good physical shape.    I have no family history of serious medical problems.  A health insurance dream.

Unlike you I happily paid for good health insurance.  

Through no "fault" of my own - I've been diagnosed with conditions which caused me to incurr about $20,000 in medical bills this year.    That's just the start.  Even banking every premium for the last twenty years, I'll probably run out soon.

S&(# happens to everybody eventually.  Someday perhaps you will be humbled.  I hope it's not TOO painful for you when it happens.

Again, where did i say I don't have health insurance? (I'll save you the checking time, i didnt, and i DO have health insurance.  I'd be crazy not too since the federal goverment pays 75% of it).   I simply made some matter of fact statements, and i didnt imply anything beyond that.

I implicitly said, on average, you'd come out ahead.   The getting all bent out of shape about me just stating facts is your issue, not mine.

And what a hateful thing to close with, Sheryl. Maybe some other method besides bitterness would be a better approach for your current situation.

 

[brewer12345]

Nope, you once again went off on a tangent Brewer, showing you still have a chip on your shoulder.

Az, do us a favor and take your meds on schedule.

 

[azanon]

Az, do us a favor and take your meds on schedule.

Beautiful Irony. You saying that.

 

[astromeria]

What need hath Brewer for meds? He has his brew!

 

[lets-retire]

The EU per se does not have a defense budget to date as far as I know.. calls have been made to establish one, funding it at about €200 million. ( koff kofff... compared with DoD budget request of $500 billion). Overall, EU countries spend 1.9% of GDP on defense, compared with America's 3.4%, according to The Economist. European defense contractors do have some joint ventures, but "the EU" is unlikely to act in lockstep in anything defense-related anytime soon.
http://www.economist.com/background/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5548061

You're correct, the EU doesn't have a defense the individual countries do. I realized my mistake as soon as I pressed "post", but I had to meet the DW for lunch. If I remember correctly, the French are developing the aircraft I referenced earlier.

Sorry for the mistake.

 

[Martha]

Again, where did i say I don't have health insurance? (I'll save you the checking time, i didnt, and i DO have health insurance.  I'd be crazy not too since the federal goverment pays 75% of it).   I simply made some matter of fact statements, and i didnt imply anything beyond that.

I implicitly said, on average, you'd come out ahead.   The getting all bent out of shape about me just stating facts is your issue, not mine.

And what a hateful thing to close with, Sheryl.  Maybe some other method besides bitterness would be a better approach for your current situation.

Az, you are not being fair to Sheryl. You said:

Buying insurance is a hedge that you might be worse off than average. That's the reason i personally despise insurance; because i'm rarely worse than average on anything.

Azanon

She was responding to you statement that you are rarely worse than average. You come off sounding very narcissistic. As Sheryl says, the unexpected can happen to anyone at anytime. She wasn't being hateful.

 

[brewer12345]

You come off sounding very narcissistic.

Heh, understatement of the year.

 

[Sundance Kid]

A "clogged butt". Now there's a first for me.

Finger IN=$693. Finger OUT= $693. Half the procedure, results in a savings of
$693. Plus, having a "Buddy," for the rest of your life.

Coulda worked it out with a pencil!

 

[flipstress]

Maybe Azanon was just feeling lucky to think he's not worse than average. 

However, it's hard to determine what's average, that is, until one gets hit with one whopping serious condition.  At that point, you realize you're not "average" or "normal" anymore.  For all of us, the possibility of misfortune is always there, and healthwise, the probability goes higher as we get older--perhaps that's part of what Sheryl meant.

As for me, I feel lucky even if I might be average.  I hope my luck keeps up.

 

[Andy]

However, it's hard to determine what's average, that is, until one gets hit with one whopping serious condition.  At that point, you realize you're not "average" or "normal" anymore.  For all of us, the possibility of misfortune is always there, and healthwise, the probability goes higher as we get older--perhaps that's part of what Sheryl meant.

And that's what happened to me. I would have never dreamed I would have these health issues in my early 50's. It is very humbling.

 

[Andy]

My personal oddest health insurance claim was about 12 years ago. I had some surgery that was estimated to last two hours. Well There were some problems and it lasted 4 hours. The insurance company paid for the surgeon, with no problem, but they wouldn't pay for the extra 2 hours of anestesia. They said it wasn't "Necessary". I went a round and a round with them. I finally ended up paying it myself. I am sure the ceo of BC/BS wouldn't want to have surgery without himself!

 

[Zipper]

let's-retire, to whom is the EU going to sell jet-fighters that could threaten the U.S.? The U.S. and NATO have been the only entities attacking other countries with warplanes other than Israel.

Stop and think about it. Who could afford the megamillions? Although the UK is not technically part of the EU, they are fully integrated in the European defence industry and would definitely have a say in policy.

 

[Texas Proud]

let's-retire, to whom is the EU going to sell jet-fighters that could threaten the U.S.? The U.S. and NATO have been the only entities attacking other countries with warplanes other than Israel.

Stop and think about it. Who could afford the megamillions? Although the UK is not technically part of the EU, they are fully integrated in the European defence industry and would definitely have a say in policy.

Sorry.. but the UK is part of the EU... it just is not part of the Euro currency...

 

[MasterBlaster]

let's-retire, to whom is the EU going to sell jet-fighters that could threaten the U.S.? The U.S. and NATO have been the only entities attacking other countries with warplanes other than Israel.

Stop and think about it. Who could afford the megamillions? Although the UK is not technically part of the EU, they are fully integrated in the European defence industry and would definitely have a say in policy.

Lets just say one nightmare sceanario is that Europe starts selling advanced fighters and other advanced military hardware to China. China has lots of cash and has shown a willingness to beef up it's military for the Taiwan show-down.

Another sceanrio is one of advanced fighters and equipment to Iran.

Both of these countries have lots of cash and a mindset to deter the US.

They don't have to threaten the US directly. They just have to make an engagement lots more painful and the outcome much less certain to pursue their objectives.

 

[Zipper]

You are correct Texas.

Mrs. Zipper has a British Passport that is valid in the rest of the EU.

Now.........to whom is the EU is going to sell fighter-jets that would threaten the U.S.?