Affluent Americans rush to retire - Article

[Nick12]

A 69 year old Surgeon? And considering retirement now? Yes, good surgeons are hard to find, and are of great value to society, but "come on, man". Time to give it up.

Some doctors don't even buy their first home until they are in the mid 40s. Our family doctor years ago is still practicing at age 83. Other specialists I know are still working in theIr late 60s.

 

[disneysteve]

Some doctors don't even buy their first home until they are in the mid 40s. Our family doctor hears ago is still practicing at age 83. Other specialists I know are still working in theIr late 60s.

When I started med school, the average age in my first year class was 27 and the oldest member of the class was 44. I was the relative baby of the class at 21. Many people go to med school as a 2nd career. If you don't start school until you're 30, then have 4 years of med school and at least 3 years of residency, you're at least 37 when you get into practice so retiring at 55 or 60 probably isn't on your agenda.

 

[Aerides]

So I wonder what happens when all these "newly affluent" retirees start to sell off investments to fund their early retirements?

As an early retiree after almost 5 years, I have yet to sell off anything significant to fund my retirement.

 

[RobbieB]

Hehe, yeah. I'm a boomer 7 year retired and I have more in equities than I started with. Even though I sell lots of them they just keep replenishing

Kinda like a dogpatch ham.

 

[Bamaman]

About 8 years ago my doctors began retiring. Since then I have made a point of only selecting doctors in their late 30's - early 40's when I need a new doctor. And I tell all of them they are forbidden from retiring until I kick the bucket decades from now!

My primary physician has an internal medicine practice he shares with 3 other doctors. He is 69 years old, and talks about retirement.

But he has a big house and he drives a Cadillac Escalade. He had 2.3 children that went to private schools. He sent one daughter thru medical school, and she's just out of residency at Cleveland Clinic. Her husband is a neurosurgeon, so they have a good future.

But primary care physicians often have a 50% Expense Ratio in his office. And most really have middle class incomes while living the high life. Doctors are famous for getting into bad investments, and many don't even get their own student loans paid until their 50's. Very few doctors get out of medical school without student loans.

My doctor would like to retire, but I assume he will have to work into his 70's like his partners. We forget that most physicians are independent businessmen, and they have to fund their pensions 100%. And with the student loans, cost of doing business and family obligations, they just don't have enough retirement savings to maintain their current lifestyles.

No wonder so many are selling out their practices to the big chain hospitals--for cash. Then they continue to work as independent contractors.

 

[Calico]

There's definitely a trade off. Studies have shown that younger providers tend to be more familiar with the latest treatment guidelines, so you gain that up to date knowledge base. On the flip side, as the article touches on, the "soft" skills aren't taught in school; they develop over years of practice experience.


I'm reminded of the movie Doc Hollywood where Michael J. Fox thought he was a hot shot young doctor know it all and the old time rural doc (Barnard Hughes) was past his prime and needed to pack it in. Of course, over time the young guy learned the value of a lifetime of experience over book knowledge.


I work with many excellent young providers, 25 years my junior. They know their stuff, but I definitely see how our approaches differ and they see it too. They have often commented about how much they appreciate my input because I've got nearly 3 decades of experience that has taught me stuff you just can't learn in school.

I agree absolutely! And I remember that movie well.

There is no substitute for experience, and that is true across all fields, not just medicine.

I might be an unusual patient, I don't know. I want technical skill first in my doctors, and if they also have warmth and listening skills I consider those bonuses.

Back in 2005 I had a cancer surgeon with ZERO soft skills - but she was a wizard with a scalpel. If I wanted "soft and fuzzy" I got it from her fellows. I still remember her fellow named Cynthia - a wonderful person with both skill and the "human touch!"

In 2018 when I had cancer surgery my surgeon was older, with lots of experience, but he was quite a cold fish, with very few soft skills. I wanted the best skilled surgeon I could find, and he was it. Given that he had my life in his hands, I didn't really care if he was "warm and fuzzy" - his nurse practitioners provided (and still provide) everything I needed in terms of listening skills, good communication, etc.

After the 2018 operation I never had one minute of pain - not one. Apparently this is unusual with that operation. They sent me home with bottles of pain pills and I only ever took Tylenol. And I am a wimp when it comes to pain, believe me! That man had golden hands!

At a checkup a year after the surgery I told his long-time nurse practitioner that I was delighted to do my follow-ups with her, rather than with him. Without missing a beat, she said "he's a lot better with people who are unconscious!"

We all have our strengths, and I will take skill over personality any day of the week with my doctors (assuming I can only have one of those). Age is a secondary consideration.

Note: if I were looking for a GP, soft skills might be a lot more important to me.

 

[disneysteve]

But primary care physicians often have a 50% Expense Ratio in his office. And most really have middle class incomes while living the high life. Doctors are famous for getting into bad investments, and many don't even get their own student loans paid until their 50's. Very few doctors get out of medical school without student loans.

No wonder so many are selling out their practices to the big chain hospitals--for cash. Then they continue to work as independent contractors.

So very true.


Many years ago, I and my family were featured in an article in a national physician's financial publication for not falling into that trap. We believed in LBYM. We shopped at thrift shops, clipped coupons, cooked most meals at home, bought used non-luxury cars and a modest house, sent our kid to public school, etc. It was sufficiently atypical to warrant a multi-page feature article highlighting our approach and how it was allowing us to pay down my debt and invest for our future.


I was a PCP for 24 years and as you described had a low income and high expenses. I finally left that world and moved to urgent care for a large hospital system. My income doubled, even more so when you look at total comp. I got a 401k with a match. My health insurance costs plummeted (with far better coverage). The past 4 years since making that switch we've been able to supercharge our savings rate and we're on track for me to retire by 60 if not a bit before. That never would have happened had I remained in private family practice.

 

[Winemaker]

So why do we have comments about time> money? I'm not knocking anyone who wants to contribute to the greater cause of humanity. But on this forum we chastise anyone who has truly "made it", and stays OMY or more? What gives? We have 75+ yo politicians that refuses to retire because they thrive on the power that they have been given by the people that elected them.

I believe in one finding their own true happiness, through the freedom that one possesses through the talents that God has given each of us. So let them do what makes them happy, but don't give me this crap about affluent Americans rushing to retire at 69.

 

[disneysteve]

I want technical skill first in my doctors, and if they also have warmth and listening skills I consider those bonuses.

Note: if I were looking for a GP, soft skills might be a lot more important to me.

I agree 100%. When I'm looking for a surgeon, I don't care about personality - I care about skill.


For a family doc, however, I want someone who I can develop a good rapport with.


Personally, I was a family doc for 24 years and for the past 4 have been doing urgent care (which is basically family medicine for acute needs) so the soft skills have always been important for me, along with the knowledge and technical skills of course.

 

[disneysteve]

I believe in one finding their own true happiness, through the freedom that one possesses through the talents that God has given each of us. So let them do what makes them happy, but don't give me this crap about affluent Americans rushing to retire at 69.

Certainly that guy retiring at 69 isn't shocking. It's not like he's hanging it up early. Maybe earlier than he had planned to, but not early in ER terms.


I think the main point of the article is that recent events have pushed people to retire who weren't necessarily planning to.

 

[ivinsfan]

So why do we have comments about time> money? I'm not knocking anyone who wants to contribute to the greater cause of humanity. But on this forum we chastise anyone who has truly "made it", and stays OMY or more? What gives? We have 75+ yo politicians that refuses to retire because they thrive on the power that they have been given by the people that elected them.

I believe in one finding their own true happiness, through the freedom that one possesses through the talents that God has given each of us. So let them do what makes them happy, but don't give me this crap about affluent Americans rushing to retire at 69.

Your comment that this board chastises anyone who has made it and continues to work is pure fabrication. Those comments come when somebody is struggling internally with OMY syndrome and wants input from others who did the same.



We don't tell people to work or not work we answer questions about how much is enough money and how much is enough work.

 

[RetMD21]

I agree 100%. When I'm looking for a surgeon, I don't care about personality - I care about skill.

Skill and judgment. Although some surgeons retain skills with age there isn't any formal assessment and the public can't tell who is declining.

 

[Markola]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...tirement-because-of-covid?utm_source=url_link


Apparently I'm trendy. This describes me perfectly. I've gone from expecting to work until 62 to thinking I might be able to cut back at 60 to now trying to nail things down and make 58 or 59 happen. I can totally relate to this article.

Me too. I did not have 6 a.m. Zoom meetings like the poor guy at 3M who is featured in the article, which seems downright abusive, but I did not thrive in Zoom Land. Last spring, after days full of those things, one after another, I decided, “Forget this noise”. I called my boss in May and said I wanted to leave, which I did July 8, which was about 6 months earlier than I planned. I just winked out of Zoom Land, like I was one less Hollywood Square.

The world survived just fine for decades with conference calls but endless Zooms are a new and particularly taxing kind of corporate Hell.

 

[1242Vintage]

… Zooms are a new and particularly taxing kind of corporate Hell.

I retired last May just as Zooms were rising in popularity. My chief didn’t believe in remote working so he scheduled daily 3-5 pm Zoom conference meeting with the Exec team to make sure we were working. I worked on the Dining Room table and and lovely wife got a kick out of hearing the same BS over and over again daily and the same voices saying “can you hear me now?”

 

[Closet_Gamer]

I really resonate with the article. I'm younger but I share the sentiment.

We would have hit our FI number this year anyway, but due to the run up over the last year, and a career bump about 24 months ago that put the savings into an even higher gear, we have blown through that number and then some.

I'm under contract for two more years so I'm not leaving, but the impact of being well past the number on my motivation and work psychology is very apparent. The fact that DD2 finishes high school and is off to college only compounds it. I never wanted my school aged kids to see Dad in a life of leisure. That topic is off the table now too.

Its not that I don't care -- I care a great deal actually -- but I just have ZERO tolerance for BS from the people above me or the growing HR whining prevalent in the wider organization.

I went at it hammer and tongs with my boss two days ago. I've never been shy about making my opinions known regardless of someone's position in the company, but I just really wasn't willing to put up with his moodiness running down my people and their hard work. I think he was surprised when I decided that two of us could have angry emotions and raise our voices at the same time.

I'd always thought I'd have OMY syndrome big time. Right now the portfolio could drop 25% and it wouldn't make us change a thing in our retirement plan.

I can't imagine renewing my contract.

 

[Winemaker]

Your comment that this board chastises anyone who has made it and continues to work is pure fabrication. Those comments come when somebody is struggling internally with OMY syndrome and wants input from others who did the same.



We don't tell people to work or not work we answer questions about how much is enough money and how much is enough work.

Perhaps chastising was a poor word on my part.

 

[DrRoy]

I was ahead of the curve 4 years ago.

 

[Markola]

I went at it hammer and tongs with my boss two days ago. I've never been shy about making my opinions known regardless of someone's position in the company, but I just really wasn't willing to put up with his moodiness running down my people and their hard work. I think he was surprised when I decided that two of us could have angry emotions and raise our voices at the same time.

This is positive, in a sense, that one can have such direct communication with one’s boss. At the same time, isn’t it strange that two adults ever need to go at it “hammer and tongs” at all? The higher I rose in the organization, the more I had to confront people on behalf of my team, whether HR bureaucrats, underhanded or oblivious program managers who did something toxic to me or us, or my bosses. Or, I was increasingly the recipient of incoming harshness from others for one thing or another that my team or I didn’t do, in their siloed opinions, not caring about our team’s larger obligations to the organization. Or maybe one of my team members or I did something that offended someone and had to be worked out over awkward “coffee” off site.

I took my work responsibilities seriously but, a few years ago, I started looking around and realized, “Is this really how adults have to behave? I go through the rest of my daily life without ever having to close the door, hoping to calmly resolve something, only to end up in a shouting match with someone who didn’t attend the “Dealing with Conflict” seminar and generally got their way by presenting as a bully. Do I really need to spend days in emotional turmoil before and after, and losing sleep? Maybe there’s a better way, and I can eliminate 100% of the problem altogether, at its very source.”

So I did. It’s been 10 months with no such confrontations with anyone, and a massive relief. With the major irritant of my life eliminated, I’m more balanced and centered. Of course, in marriage, two people have to try to work out little things constantly so that they don’t become big things, but DW and I are better able to disagree without being disagreeable without the background of my intense work stress. She eliminated her own 3 years ago this month.

 

[scrabbler1]

I had a dentist for 24 years until he retired in 2013 at age 81. He was working only a few days a week the last several years. He was a gentle, compassionate man, enabling me to overcome my fear of dentists, and save my teeth. His replacement is in his early 40s, part of a father-son practice with his dad. It's a more high-tech office when it comes to computerizing administrative tasks.

My other doctors range in age from 62 to 73, and they have been treating me since 2015 when I was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes while fixing other unrelated ailments. Some of them have mentioned retiring "soon" but are going strong. Several of them are part of larger practices with other doctors, so a transition to someone else there would probably be not too difficult.

 

[Amethyst]

Just lost a really good dentist at the local chain practice. He moved to open his own practice, too far away to make continuing to see him, practical.

I don't blame him - he has a growing family, and this is his chance - but the whole office has lost something.

OTOH, about 10 years ago, I was devastated to lose a long-time dentist, the nicest lady in the world and a very excellent practitioner. She was forced to retire in her mid-50s because her tiny hands were growing crippled with arthritis. But after her replacement started working on our teeth, I realized that my former dentist had not been in top form for some time.

Mr. A. and I both had crowns of hers fail early - turned out mine had never been permanently cemented! (Even though I came in for all scheduled appts). Also, the office immediately fired her favorite assistant, whom I could not stand. Evidently, neither could anybody else A much better one came in with the new dentist.

So, change can be for the better.

 

[Flyfish1]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...tirement-because-of-covid?utm_source=url_link


Apparently I'm trendy. This describes me perfectly. I've gone from expecting to work until 62 to thinking I might be able to cut back at 60 to now trying to nail things down and make 58 or 59 happen. I can totally relate to this article.

This is exactly my situation! I was going to go to 62, then backed it to 60 -61.Now I have formally told my partners I'm out at 59 1/2, and I'm rethinking my needs to the point that I might quit at 58 1/2, which is one more year.

 

[brett]

My father retired at 58/59 in 1980 for health reasons. High stress job. After retirement his health situation recovered to normal.

I retired at 58/59 in 2011. Had the chance of a golden handshake plus we were fortunate to have the financial resources that make it a no brainer. Best thing we ever did. Never looked back. Low inflation, substantial equity growth, and good health.

My only regret...wish I had done it two or three years earlier.

 

[MuirWannabe]

This is positive, in a sense, that one can have such direct communication with one’s boss. At the same time, isn’t it strange that two adults ever need to go at it “hammer and tongs” at all? The higher I rose in the organization, the more I had to confront people on behalf of my team, whether HR bureaucrats, underhanded or oblivious program managers who did something toxic to me or us, or my bosses. Or, I was increasingly the recipient of incoming harshness from others for one thing or another that my team or I didn’t do, in their siloed opinions, not caring about our team’s larger obligations to the organization. Or maybe one of my team members or I did something that offended someone and had to be worked out over awkward “coffee” off site.

I took my work responsibilities seriously but, a few years ago, I started looking around and realized, “Is this really how adults have to behave? I go through the rest of my daily life without ever having to close the door, hoping to calmly resolve something, only to end up in a shouting match with someone who didn’t attend the “Dealing with Conflict” seminar and generally got their way by presenting as a bully. Do I really need to spend days in emotional turmoil before and after, and losing sleep? Maybe there’s a better way, and I can eliminate 100% of the problem altogether, at its very source.”

So I did. It’s been 10 months with no such confrontations with anyone, and a massive relief. With the major irritant of my life eliminated, I’m more balanced and centered. Of course, in marriage, two people have to try to work out little things constantly so that they don’t become big things, but DW and I are better able to disagree without being disagreeable without the background of my intense work stress. She eliminated her own 3 years ago this month.

Gosh. Reading this sent me right into stress mode. Reliving such times in my career. You describe it quite well. In fact, that’s exactly what the cr*p was like. And exactly why I targeted ER to escape. Yeesh. Don’t do this to me again [emoji4]

 

[Exchme]

This is positive, in a sense, that one can have such direct communication with one’s boss. At the same time, isn’t it strange that two adults ever need to go at it “hammer and tongs” at all? The higher I rose in the organization, the more I had to confront people on behalf of my team, whether HR bureaucrats, underhanded or oblivious program managers who did something toxic to me or us, or my bosses. Or, I was increasingly the recipient of incoming harshness from others for one thing or another that my team or I didn’t do, in their siloed opinions, not caring about our team’s larger obligations to the organization. Or maybe one of my team members or I did something that offended someone and had to be worked out over awkward “coffee” off site.

I took my work responsibilities seriously but, a few years ago, I started looking around and realized, “Is this really how adults have to behave? I go through the rest of my daily life without ever having to close the door, hoping to calmly resolve something, only to end up in a shouting match with someone who didn’t attend the “Dealing with Conflict” seminar and generally got their way by presenting as a bully. Do I really need to spend days in emotional turmoil before and after, and losing sleep? Maybe there’s a better way, and I can eliminate 100% of the problem altogether, at its very source.”

So I did. It’s been 10 months with no such confrontations with anyone, and a massive relief. With the major irritant of my life eliminated, I’m more balanced and centered. Of course, in marriage, two people have to try to work out little things constantly so that they don’t become big things, but DW and I are better able to disagree without being disagreeable without the background of my intense work stress. She eliminated her own 3 years ago this month.

Bullies are really hard for organizations to handle. Who is strong enough to stand up to the manipulation, shouting matches, devious politics, bald faced lies, blame casting, wild accusations and general craziness and disruption? I worked at a place that while not perfect, had way fewer bullies than similar firms so we were able to attract top talent and do great work. Then the company got the brilliant idea to jump into other markets and somehow hired some bullies. It was wolves descending upon the sheep and in just a few years, they largely destroyed the distinct company culture that was 50 years in the making. So I took it as a sign and retired.

 

[Markola]

Gosh. Reading this sent me right into stress mode. Reliving such times in my career. You describe it quite well. In fact, that’s exactly what the cr*p was like. And exactly why I targeted ER to escape. Yeesh. Don’t do this to me again [emoji4]

Sorry to dredge up the gunk for you, me or anyone. I was trying to help out ol’ Closet_Gamer and got carried away [emoji856]. Brrrrrrr...

I double checked with DW after I wrote that, and she agreed entirely that I’m a lot better off now post-j*b, as are we as a couple.