Electric Vehicles - Models Discussion

[joesxm3]

Midpack,

Please look at the display in your car and pick "software" then scroll down to see your main version and also your fed beta version.

Mine says v11.1(2023.23.9.....)

FSD beta. 11.4.4

Thanks

 

[Zathras]

Midpack,

Please look at the display in your car and pick "software" then scroll down to see your main version and also your fed beta version.

Mine says v11.1(2023.23.9.....)

FSD beta. 11.4.4

Thanks

You may want to prompt Tesla to see if they can push an update.
I am on: Version: 2023.27.7
FSD: Beta v11.4.7.3

 

[joesxm3]

You may want to prompt Tesla to see if they can push an update.
I am on: Version: 2023.27.7
FSD: Beta v11.4.7.3

How might I prompt to check for updates? Nothing on my software screen seems to do that. I am set for advanced update preference.

I got my Y 2/26/2023 and started FSD in June or july. I might be in a newbie status. I had 11.3.6 for a long time and got 11.4.4 a while after I saw older users getting 11.4.7.

 

[JoeWras]

Has a tendency to zig a bit to the right when making a left turn in an attempt to line up rather than cutting the lane while turning. This is dangerous when cars are sneaking by on your right. This is how I got swiped by the trailer.

I've seen plenty of humans do this right zig too. It is baffling. They are driving a little car like a Chevy Sprint and they zig right as if they are driving a truck.

---

On most of my driving days, I have to take this triple-left lane turn, with two straights on the right. That is: there are 5 lanes, 3 turn left, 2 go "straight".

I put "straight" in quotes because these lanes don't line up very well and those to lanes have to zig left. The whole setup is unnerving. If one zigs right while attempting to turn left, and the "straights" have to zig left, there will be sideswipes. It happens constantly at this intersection.

This intersection used to be 4 lanes. They made it 5 by repainting. The little "hash marks" to help the triple lefters not bump into each other sometimes get worn down.

I would love to see what FSD does in this setup. Maybe I'll have to invite Midpack over (a couple hundred mile drive for him) to check it out.

 

[Zathras]

Open a ticket using the app.
The updates don’t roll out simultaneously. However, if it has been awhile (which it appears to), it doesn’t hurt to double check.

 

[explanade]

If you get into an accident while using FSD, who's liable, you or Tesla?

 

[ken830]

The driver is always responsible.

 

[Zathras]

If you get into an accident while using FSD, who's liable, you or Tesla?

FSD Beta is a Beta product. It is not level 5 autonomy. So the responsibility lies with the driver.

 

[explanade]

FSD Beta is a Beta product. It is not level 5 autonomy. So the responsibility lies with the driver.

Yikes, so you pay $16k for a chance to be on the financial hook for unproven software?


Insurance company doesn't boost your premiums for FSD?


Because a lot of the premium is based on the value of the car but if you increase that value by $16k, that could be 1/3 the value of the whole car.

So if you subscribe to FSD, do they raise the premium to account for the bigger expenditure the car represents?

 

[joesxm3]

FSD costs $12,000 or can be rented for $200 a month.

 

[Zathras]

Yikes, so you pay $16k for a chance to be on the financial hook for unproven software?


Insurance company doesn't boost your premiums for FSD?


Because a lot of the premium is based on the value of the car but if you increase that value by $16k, that could be 1/3 the value of the whole car.

So if you subscribe to FSD, do they raise the premium to account for the bigger expenditure the car represents?

FSD has no more affect on your insurance than cruise control.

 

[ken830]

Yikes, so you pay $16k for a chance to be on the financial hook for unproven software?

Yes, but I think that's a weird way to frame it. Do you look at cruise control, traffic aware cruise control, automatic emergency braking, and lane keep assist features in all cars the same way? You also paid the full price of the vehicle to be on the financial hook if you crash the vehicle. As impressive as it is, remember that today, FSD is still a driver's assistant. It's not a driver replacement. The driver is responsible for safely operating the vehicle at all times. The driver can instantly take over control with either pedal or steering wheel at any time.

 

[explanade]

I actually believe Level 2, where you have to take over in a second's notice, is pretty dangerous, gives a false sense of safety.

But if people want to pay a 5-figure fee to beta test, with no guarantee that it will ever be more than L2, more power to them.

 

[ken830]

I actually believe Level 2, where you have to take over in a second's notice, is pretty dangerous, gives a false sense of safety.

But if people want to pay a 5-figure fee to beta test, with no guarantee that it will ever be more than L2, more power to them.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I think you really need to try it and live with it for awhile before your opinion is truly an informed one.

For me, I mostly like driving, but it is extremely good on highways and in stop-and-go traffic, so it makes the worst part of driving tolerable..

But even if it didn't bring any value to my driving, I would still buy FSD (I bought it two-and-a-half times already). Because for me, this is a rare sneak-peak at one piece of the AI revolution that is unfolding right now. Most people don't fully realize what is happening or maybe they kind of do, but have no idea how impactful it is going to be. I am lucky that I work at an AI startup and get glimpses of what is happening in the industry. Before ChatGPT made its splash last year, more people would be even more oblivious... Tesla's AI progress is basically available for us to preview for the cost of the vehicle itself plus FSD option. They have been making small breakthroughs and to be able to witness it and experience it first-hand is just an incredible opportunity that you and I, as outsiders, probably only get once every few generations (if even that). If Tesla didn't offer this access, we'd basically have none of it until it's "proven" many years from now and then it's a new, working product -- that may be fine for you as a consumer, but it's horrible to me to have missed out on witnessing the development of groundbreaking technology. These new AI models, neural networks, large language models, and the hardware that train them and run them (inference) are fascinating and we are constantly surprised by their new capabilities every few months. We are starting to see multi-modal models that can do things deemed "impossible" just months ago. It's 100% mind-blowing. Like watching sci-fi movie special effects level of un-believable. And it's just getting started. If you thought the Internet revolution changed our lives, it'll be nothing compared to the changes AI will bring. I'm not sure if my excitement is coming through my typing here, but I'm excited and curious and the industry's recent progress is breathtaking. For Tesla specifically, the progress is slower because they have virtually-unlimited variability of inputs and real-world limitations to work with. Unlike ChatGPT for example, which is run entirely on remote servers in a datacenter that can operate with high-latency, Tesla's models must have real-time responses and must run on fixed hardware (current FSD3 inference processor is like 4 years old) with a limited, fixed power envelope. Ever wonder why you've never seen the trunk of a Waymo or Cruise or whatever autonomous vehicles? Because they have power-hungry compute on-board consuming hundreds (if not > 1,000) watts, which requires large power supplies and cooling. I think Waymo's recent generation of compute has been reduced enough to give back much of the trunk space where it previously took up the entire space. Tesla's 14nm FSD3 chip runs on 72 watts each (there are two of them onboard for redundancy) - it's extremely, extremely, extremely optimized. This means they have limitations on how large of a model they can fit in it, so they have to be strategic in developing their model and can't just throw huge, inefficient models on there to brute force certain things.

 

[Midpack]

Yikes, so you pay $16k for a chance to be on the financial hook for unproven software?

I actually believe Level 2, where you have to take over in a second's notice, is pretty dangerous, gives a false sense of safety.

But if people want to pay a 5-figure fee to beta test, with no guarantee that it will ever be more than L2, more power to them.

And if you want to post and repost misinformation and ignore factual corrections, about something you have no first hand experience with, go right ahead...

 

[explanade]

And if you want to post and repost misinformation and ignore factual corrections, about something you have no first hand experience with, go right ahead...

What did I re-post that was factually incorrect?

I wonder what percentage of people are taking bait and handing over $12k for beta software.

So that THEY are financially liable for any software bugs that results in property damage or worse.

Do I have to sign on to that bad deal to opine about it?

 

[ken830]

Again. You are definitely entitled to your opinion, but I think you really need to try it and live with it for awhile before your opinion is truly an informed one.

Many cars have driver assistance features that actually control the vehicle's travel such as cruise control, adaptive cruise control, automatic emergency braking, and lane keep/departure assist. They don't call it beta (probably because they have no ambitions to further their future capabilities), but they charge extra for the options, they don't guarantee to prevent all collisions, and they sure as hell aren't going to take responsibility if you get into an accident while using them. How do you feel about those?

 

[explanade]

Adaptive cruise control is pretty bog standard now.

I've driven boring rental cars with adaptive cruise control.

FSD's benchmarks isn't the adaptive cruise control on a Toyota Carolla. No the benchmark is Waymo and rival self-driving platforms, which use a suite of sensors rather than rely only on computer vision.

It remains to be seen which is the better way forward to achieve at least Level 4 autonomous driving.

But until that's sorted, FSD is "beta" in name if not reality.

And ultimately, individual opinions won't matter. Eventually it's going to be data from billions of miles and years of use that's going to deliver the verdict.

Before authorities generally permit the roads to be filled with autonomous cars, they're going to have to prove themselves to be reliable and safe.

 

[ken830]

Adaptive cruise control wasn't always common. None of what you said there refutes the fact that those driver assistance features can also control the vehicle, cost money, yet don't take responsibility from the driver in case of accidents, which is exactly the same position you put FSD in and what you based your opinion on. Logically and legally, there is no difference.

 

[RetMD21]

The Cybertruck AWD looks like it will be cheaper than the top of the line Ford Lightning with similar range and a little more towing capacity. I wonder how many people really will buy one. I don't want any truck, lol. The idea of a battery range extender is interesting. I'm not sure what it means.

 

[ken830]

The range extender is a battery that can be installed against the cab in the bed.

 

[explanade]

Adaptive cruise control wasn't always common. None of what you said there refutes the fact that those driver assistance features can also control the vehicle, cost money, yet don't take responsibility from the driver in case of accidents, which is exactly the same position you put FSD in and what you based your opinion on. Logically and legally, there is no difference.

Are you sure people are paying specifically for ADC or emergency breaking?

I doubt too many people would for those features by themselves.

And no they don't control the vehicle for extended periods. You're driving when you use ADC. You're driving and the emergency breaking can intervene.

The lane keeping, sure people can pay but that's another waste, since you don't even know which roads it works on.

But these individual drivers aids aren't being positioned anything like FSD, which is dangling the prospect that it would control the car but you have to be prepared to take over in a second.

 

[ken830]

Are you sure people are paying specifically for ADC or emergency breaking?

I doubt too many people would for those features by themselves.

And no they don't control the vehicle for extended periods. You're driving when you use ADC. You're driving and the emergency breaking can intervene.

The lane keeping, sure people can pay but that's another waste, since you don't even know which roads it works on.

But these individual drivers aids aren't being positioned anything like FSD, which is dangling the prospect that it would control the car but you have to be prepared to take over in a second.

The cost always comes from the customer, one way or another. Automatic emergency braking could cause you to be rear-ended.

You can split hairs all you want. There will always be differences between different things. But remember your original statement: "Yikes, so you pay $16k for a chance to be on the financial hook for unproven software?" Within that context, these driver assistance features are all logically identical... They all have the ability to control the vehicle's trajectory, they all cost something (either optional, packaged, or built-in), and none of them guarantee 100% prevention of collisions nor do any of them take any liability away from the driver.

We obviously disagree, and that's completely fine. But you should either re-consider your opinion, or re-think what other factors go into forming the basis of your opinion and maybe state that clearly? At least it will make for more nuanced and fair, well-thought-out discussions that isn't just driven by reflexive emotions.

 

[explanade]

Nobody thinks of FSD, which you pay 5-figures for to unlock or pay a monthly subscription to be like those features or any other options in cars.

GM offers the Cruise option on some of their more expensive cars.

Otherwise, it's disingenuous to call cruise control, which again, nobody pays an additional price for, as anything comparable to drive automation.

 

[ken830]

Not sure why you get hung up on how much it costs or how it's paid for. Autopilot is "free" on all Tesla vehicles. Does that change your opinion on it? Would you no longer expect it to take liability just because it's included in the vehicle purchase price?