Electric Vehicles - Models Discussion

[RetMD21]

From the article:
Everywhere in the world, internal combustion engine vehicles fail in the cold a lot more often than electric vehicles, but that’s mostly due to the fact that there are a lot more of them.

I'm curious about why you thought that that bit of the article was something important to post. I thought the fact that 13% of the calls were for BEVs in a country where they are 23% was the interesting part.

 

[folivier]

And more ice vehicles fail in the cold because there are more of them and they're most likely much older with many more miles?

 

[Fermion]

Most electric vehicles are less than 10 years old right? Probably closer to 5 years old on average? I doubt there is any gas vehicle that new that would fail in the cold in significant numbers.

 

[Christine]

Which model would fend off cold weather the best? Teslas are dying off in the cold in the Chicago suburbs.

https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/d...ziCIhgbmuu8pfEwHNde7yE1hG6LBzmkbZjhZp3kfHNzrY

Meanwhile Colorado and Norway Tesla owners do just fine.

This story sounds like it's full of lies and misunderstandings. My theory: Some people have no practical sense and can't be bothered reading manuals and guides. And that is always someone else's fault. Add a clickbait'y journalist and off we go.

Note that pre-heating the car using home charging, and parking it in a garage are not possible for the tens of millions of people who rent or own housing where parking is just a big lot - usually outdoors - with no private areas and not much if any electrical service.

A garage is nice but not neccesary. I have owned various Teslas for 5 years. Only had a garage for the last 7 months. Having a Tesla is actually better when you have no garage. Since you use the app to start the heater in the car a few minutes before going out. Then the ice has melted and the battery and the cabin is nice and warm.


As for not having a private charger - I have tried that too. My usual routine was to stop by a supercharger on my way home to top up the battery since it charges faster with a warm car. Then I popped out for a coffee and used the waiting time to check my emails and social accounts. A bit of a hassle but soon became a routine.

IDK if this has been posted. Proportionally fewer service calls for EVs in Norway vs ICE in extreme cold. The article also indicates that chargers are more of a problem than vehicles
https://electrek.co/2024/01/17/electric-vehicles-fail-lower-rate-than-gas-cars-extreme-cold/

Don't know the US - but here in Norway the Tesla chargers work 99.9% of the time. The other chargers not so good.


My Tesla is much better in the cold than my ICE cars were. Tried it in -30C with no problems. Only change I make is not letting the battery run down before I park my car if I am not parked at a charger like I have at home. Then I just preheat from the app before going out to a warm car that just runs as usual.

By 2030 or 2035, if there are significantly more EVs worldwide, what will it do to gas and ICE sales?

Investment in oil production may decline and lead to higher prices, further placing downward pressure on gas and ICE sales.

This is very interesting. Margins on ICE car sales are generally not very high. So removing only a small amount sold each year and you have killed your margins. Fixed costs shared by fewer cars etc.


But then I have problems imagining anyone wanting to buy a fossil car in 2030. Well - except for perhaps a 1000 exhaust nerds worldwide. But that is not enough customers to make the ICE cars worth making anymore.

Most electric vehicles are less than 10 years old right? Probably closer to 5 years old on average? I doubt there is any gas vehicle that new that would fail in the cold in significant numbers.

The cold often kills the 12V battery. Most EV's trickle charge the 12V from the main battery so that is not an issue any more. Even better if the main battery is connected to your home charger.


Then you have things like coolant freezing or gas lines freezing and even a diesel tank freezing if you forget the winter additives. These issues don't exist on EVs.


Then if you don't have an engine heater your engine will run with cold oil for a while which reduces lubrication. Not a winner in the long run.

 

[aja8888]

Then you have things like coolant freezing or gas lines freezing and even a diesel tank freezing if you forget the winter additives. These issues don't exist on EVs.

In case you haven't noticed, you have a cooling system in your EV, just for cooling the battery. Some EV's have more than one, all capable of freezing if the temperature gets low enough (real low).The vast majority of iCE vehicles have one too, for the engine block.

My Bolt, has THREE separate cooling systems, each with a pump and containing GM's proprietary coolant.

 

[braumeister]

This is very interesting. Margins on ICE car sales are generally not very high. So removing only a small amount sold each year and you have killed your margins. Fixed costs shared by fewer cars etc.

This depends greatly on who you're talking about.

True, Tesla has a higher profit margin than most traditional car makers, but there are far more traditional manufacturers and their profit margin tends to be significantly higher in ICE than their EVs. This is changing, and it will probably even out eventually, but right now they can generally make more with ICE vehicles.

 

[Fermion]

In case you haven't noticed, you have a cooling system in your EV, just for cooling the battery. Some EV's have more than one, all capable of freezing if the temperature gets low enough (real low).The vast majority of iCE vehicles have one too, for the engine block.

My Bolt, has THREE separate cooling systems, each with a pump and containing GM's proprietary coolant.

I didn't think about the EV coolant system. We are talking really low temperatures to freeze either a ICE or EV system, something around negative 60F? I doubt any EV would work in that temp for long unless it was coming from a warm garage or was constantly connected to AC to keep it warm. You could do the same thing with a ICE vehicle and that brings up another point that probably skews these statistics. A lot of EVs are likely kept in a garage (because of charging) and the ICE vehicles are kept outside. If we wanted statistics that were apples to apples, it would have to be garage kept ICE vehicles failing in the cold.

 

[aja8888]

I didn't think about the EV coolant system. We are talking really low temperatures to freeze either a ICE or EV system, something around negative 60F? I doubt any EV would work in that temp for long unless it was coming from a warm garage or was constantly connected to AC to keep it warm. You could do the same thing with a ICE vehicle and that brings up another point that probably skews these statistics. A lot of EVs are likely kept in a garage (because of charging) and the ICE vehicles are kept outside. If we wanted statistics that were apples to apples, it would have to be garage kept ICE vehicles failing in the cold.

You are correct on all accounts. Most EV's are garage kept as that's usually where they charge from (like mine). But don't let anyone tell you that EV's have no fluids as they have plenty. Besides the cooling system(s), they also have a gearcase with 90 weight oil in it. Tesla even has a spin on oil filter on that gearcase.

 

[ls99]

In addition to battery cooling fluids there are others.



Did a lookup, found interesting tidbit on tesla transmission fluids.
https://www.greencarfuture.com/electric/tesla-transmission-fluid

"The Tesla Model S requires different amounts depending on what drive units are in the vehicle. The car needs:

• About 1.5 quarts (1.4 liters) on the rear large drive unit.
• 2.4 quarts (2.25 liters) on the rear small drive unit.
• 1.8 quarts (1.75 liters) on the front small drive unit.

For Tesla Model S drivers, especially for models from 2012 to 2016, the fluid has to be switched out once after 12,500 miles (estimated for 1 year) and then again in years 5 and 9. We will cover more about the servicing of Tesla transmission and gearbox fluid further below. It starts to get very interesting when you move onto the more modern units and other Tesla models and their gearbox fluid."


"The above-mentioned guidance on the first change coming after 12,500 miles and then after years 5 and 9 has since been removed from later models and it’s now considered to be “maintenance free,” but the fact is that they may still need changing after 100,000 to 150,000 miles."

 

[Midpack]

A lot of EVs are likely kept in a garage (because of charging) and the ICE vehicles are kept outside. If we wanted statistics that were apples to apples, it would have to be garage kept ICE vehicles failing in the cold.

Not sure what your basis for that assumption is. I would think most people would keep their car in a garage if available, whether an EV, ICE or any other. And people who leave their cars outside, would do so whether an EV, ICE or any other. There are several homes in my neighborhood that always leave their EVs in the driveway outside. Most Level 2 home charging cords are 20 feet, some longer, you don't have to be in the garage to charge. Any decent extension cord will work for Level 1 charging. And there are a few homes near me who've chosen to add a 240V circuit outside (vs inside the garage) to charge an EV - fire safety and/or cheaper install?

 

[The Cosmic Avenger]

Not sure what your basis for that assumption is. I would think most people would keep their car in a garage if available, whether an EV, ICE or any other. And people who keep their cars out, would do so whether an EV, ICE or any other. I have seen both. Most home charging cords are 20 feet, some longer. And there are a few homes near me who've chosen to add a 240V circuit outside (vs inside the garage).

Yep, my charger is on the outside on my garage, since we don't park in our garage. It's got a 25' cord, though I usually park in the driveway with the charge port about 3-4' from the charger.

 

[audreyh1]

I have a carport. But it rarely freezes here. It does get very hot in the summer.

The wall charging unit is outside too.

Christine in Norway mentions she kept her Tesla outside for many years including -30.

 

[explanade]

The rate at which EVs are selling in Norway, you'd assume they must operate in the cold well enough or sales would have evaporated by now.

But I remember seeing this video of a road trip through Norway on a Model Y. There was a parking garage in Oslo or Bergen and it was full of EVs and it seemed like there were chargers for every stall.

This was a couple of years ago so the Norwegians -- or at least the rich Norwegians -- seemed to have gone all-in on electric.

 

[Midpack]

Striking differences, time will tell.

There are already a number of countries switching to EVs at impressive rates. The top 5 countries with the highest share of EV sales are

• Norway (all-electric vehicles made up 80% of passenger vehicle sales in 2022),
• Iceland (41%),
• Sweden (32%),
• the Netherlands (24%) and
• China (22%), according to our analysis. China’s place on this list is especially significant considering it is the biggest car market in the world.

The other two biggest car markets have lower EV sales but are growing quickly:

• the European Union (12%) and
• the United States (6%).

https://www.wri.org/insights/countries-adopting-electric-vehicles-fastest

 

[RetMD21]

Consumer reports wasn't impressed with the Blazer EV. Unusable navigation, poor interior stiff ride and slow charging

I hope GM can work out some of these issues by the time they start selling it again

 

[ls99]

Consumer reports wasn't impressed with the Blazer EV. Unusable navigation, poor interior stiff ride and slow charging

I hope GM can work out some of these issues by the time they start selling it again

Hmmm, based on the review, take this car and shove it....

 

[Midpack]

Though I am a confessed Tesla fan, competition is good so I hope (some/many) others including legacy auto are successful adding EVs to their product lines. It could be a (very) bad thing for the western world if Teslas only real competition is BYD or other Chinese automakers. [Please no political commentary]

I don't know if it's profitable, but the Lyriq seems to be slowly building sales, and GM is reportedly bring one of the Bolts back in 2025? And the Mach E and F-150 Lightnings have sold OK, even if not at the volumes Ford had hoped. Hyundai/Kia and Polestar seem to be developing as well. VW?

 

[REWahoo]

But then I have problems imagining anyone wanting to buy a fossil car in 2030.

"Fossil Car"

 

[aja8888]

"Fossil Car"

Maybe "fossil folks" will still be buying fossil cars in 2030, if they are allowed to drive anymore! (I may be one of them!)

 

[explanade]

So if you're feeling like BTD on an EV:

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/01/porsches-first-electric-macan-goes-on-sale-starts-at-78800/

This morning, Porsche unveiled its next Macan SUV. It has dropped internal combustion engines in the process—the new Macan is entirely battery electric, built on a dedicated EV platform. We've been following the car's development for some time, but today's news fills in a lot of the gaps, and it's the first time we've seen the Macan not covered in camouflage. Porsche is launching with two specifications. There's a Macan 4 that starts at $78,800, and a Macan Turbo starting at $105,300.

Those are starting prices so typically the ones available from your dealer are likely to be thousands more, maybe tens of thousands more.

Safe to say no tax credits for these.

And yes, apparently they're calling an EV a Turbo.

 

[ls99]

Wow, a full dashboard of video games and with nearly emty center console, should have made a bech seat. Pass.

 

[ken830]

In addition to battery cooling fluids there are others.



Did a lookup, found interesting tidbit on tesla transmission fluids.
https://www.greencarfuture.com/electric/tesla-transmission-fluid

"The Tesla Model S requires different amounts depending on what drive units are in the vehicle. The car needs:

• About 1.5 quarts (1.4 liters) on the rear large drive unit.
• 2.4 quarts (2.25 liters) on the rear small drive unit.
• 1.8 quarts (1.75 liters) on the front small drive unit.

For Tesla Model S drivers, especially for models from 2012 to 2016, the fluid has to be switched out once after 12,500 miles (estimated for 1 year) and then again in years 5 and 9. We will cover more about the servicing of Tesla transmission and gearbox fluid further below. It starts to get very interesting when you move onto the more modern units and other Tesla models and their gearbox fluid."


"The above-mentioned guidance on the first change coming after 12,500 miles and then after years 5 and 9 has since been removed from later models and it’s now considered to be “maintenance free,” but the fact is that they may still need changing after 100,000 to 150,000 miles."

This is wrong. In 2012, Tesla did initially recommend regular annual maintenance service, but that recommendation was eliminated in 2013 and they changed it to an optional annual inspection before later dropping that altogether. I owned a Model S from early 2013 so this is first-hand knowledge. Plus, by the time I sold my car 10 years and 160k miles later, I had only gone through 3 sets of tires and nothing else... No fluid changes, no brakes, no wipers, no wiper fluid, not anything. I sold the car to my good friend about a year ago, and he's put another 20k miles on it without any maintenance work. It did require a windshield replacement (rock chip), and he recently has an intermittent headlight that needs to be looked at -- probably a ballast going out??

This is the actual maintenance recommendation: https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-maintenance

 

[audreyh1]

Right, no scheduled fluid changes nor required annual inspections.

 

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by Christine View Post
But then I have problems imagining anyone wanting to buy a fossil car in 2030.

"Fossil Car"

Maybe the mods need to step in before this thread goes off the rails.

As I recall, this thread was started as an EV ***MODELS*** discussion for EV model specific questions, and to avoid the 'my car choice is better than your car choice' bickering that has resulted in other threads being shut down.

Maybe start a separate thread again for the ICE/EV debate, and see how long you can keep that one open?

edit/add: (That post I quoted was just a convenient example, not trying to pick on or single out either poster there)

Yes, from the OP:

Electric Vehicles - Models Discussion

I created this forum to discuss various EV models. Please keep the discussion to discussion of a particular EV model or EV news about new/changed models.

There's another EV forum thread called "The Electric Vehicle Thread" if you want to discuss other EV related topics like the pros and cons of EV's, etc.

-ERD50

 

[MichaelB]

Just a little thread drift. Let he who has never derailed denounce the first thread drift.