Family Life and Female Officer?

[Rustic23]

If you daughter thinks she might want to make the military a career than the Academy is the way to go. If all she is looking for is a free education than I would not recommend it. I remember a young pilot that came into our training squadron, after four years of the AF Academy, and a year of flight school he arrived at his operational training base. Six weeks into training he flew his first ground attack sortie. The next day he announced he wanted to resign because he just realized he might have to kill someone if he continued flying. You would have thought he would have had a clue before that.

What I am getting at is the military service has a mission. If your daughter does not agree with that mission she does not belong at the Academy. While many officers never fire a shot in anger, the mission of the military is to fight. As a parent of a Marine, I know he may go in harms way. As one who has a combat tour behind him, I don’t worry as much as my wife does. Bottom line it is her decision. I would just try and make sure she is making it for the right reasons.

 

[eridanus]

Really? Apart from the possibility of being blown to bits or coming home maimed, is a male really any better off?

No. That's exactly the point.

Your gender bias is showing, if anything.

 

[bermondsey]

No. That's exactly the point.

Your gender bias is showing, if anything.

Exactly.

I don’t believe this nonsense of the equality of the sexes. Women are built differently, think differently and react differently.

Whilst I would not go as far as to advocate that a woman’s place is barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen, I can not see women in combat zones. The very idea is ludicrous.

I also don’t believe in a military other than one of necessity. That is one being used in self defense and deployed in one’s own country.

Yes I have firm convictions on this matter. You may call it a bias. I call it plain old fashioned common sense.

 

[Nords]

The very idea is ludicrous. I call it plain old fashioned common sense.

I'd call that a non-constructive distraction in lieu of actual experience or any other credible data.

BTW the naval aviation researchers & physiologists have discovered that women have faster reflexes, better ability to focus, and better judgment under stress.  They make better combat pilots than men and are even reputed to be able to adapt to higher G forces without losing consciousness as quickly.  And I was able to write this entire paragraph without using the words "testosterone poisoning" or "Top Gun movie".

You still need big beefy people to lug heavy mortars & machine guns up hills and through the muck, but I think those jobs are dwindling.  The typical Navy SEAL is much smaller than average-- about 5'9" and 150 lbs.  In that community the smaller you are, the faster you can react & move and the less heat you lose per calorie consumed.

So I'd say that the sooner the military, especially the Navy, stops being a bastion of white Anglo-Saxon males, the better.  If we don't take women & minority races in all combat skills then we're breeding ourselves out of existence by ignoring a good half of our recruits. 

 

[Leslie]

Hi--retired female officer (O-5) here.  I was a direct commission into the Air Force because I wanted to get out of Kansas.  I certainly did--I lived all over the world, and other remote places like Oklahoma. I was also a military brat--I never had a home except wherever my parents were...as long as a kid can finish the last coupla years of high school in the same place, it's all right.

I do not regret a minute of the Air Force, but family friendly, it is not.  My decision to leave the military came after spending a year alone in Korea.  I learned a lot about myself, but I missed so much--births, deaths, and of course I missed my husband and family.  I don't have kids, but the female officers that did had a very supportive spouse, or the spouse was active duty also.  The Air Force (generally) won't deploy both spouses at the same time.

After working 60-70 hour weeks for several years, I left so I could watch a tree grow in my own front yard.  Because I have some $$ coming in, I am in acupuncture school and love it.  I would not have been able to do this if I hadn't stayed 20 years in the military.    

I would be proud of your daughter, and proud she wants to give back to her country.          

Leslie

 

[Leslie]

I also meant to add, she can punch out whenever she wants, but will have a great experience whatever she decides.

 

[Eagle43]

I think she ought to do it.  It will not be easy, of course.  If she hacks the first year, then make a decision whether or not to continue.  But, she'll KNOW that she's just as able as all those macho men and that will be worth a lifetime of confidence.  Who knows, she might even like it and be a future O-5.  Maybe she can be NORDS' kid's CO. 

 

[2B]

My son had two female friends that went to the Navel Academy.  One quit when she found out that the promise of medical school that she thought she had wasn't guaranted.  The other quit when she broke her wrist during the initial orientation.  Someone came up behind her during an inspection and said they would kill her if she didn't quit.  She was too shocked to turn around during a "formation."  Two days later during a PT drill was shoved and fell.  That was when she broke her wrist.  Two days later she resigned.

It's a different life.  It's a "warrior's life."  It's no longer a place to get a good, government paid education.  If you don't think you want to be a career military officer, it's not the place to go.  Most state schools are a bargain.  You aren't obligated for 6 years.

 

[Sam]

Thank you all for your inputs.  You have given me a lot to think about.

Special thanks to FlowGirl, unclemick2, Maddy, Nords, and Leslie for sharing your experiences.

Nords, I might take up on your offer about the contacts.  Thanks.

Leslie, should I have additional questions/concerns, may I contact you off line?


Anyway, I'm very proud of my daughter.  I know this is an opportunity of a lifetime.  I would never discouraged her from pursuing her dream, I just want her to be aware of the future to the best of my ability.

Sam

 

[AV8]

Whilst I would not go as far as to advocate that a woman’s place is barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen, I can not see women in combat zones. The very idea is ludicrous.

This sentiment, whether you (plural) support it or not is no longer relevant considering there are very few remaining specialties within the military that are not open to women.  That's the "law of the land" and any effort to change it now would be going up a big steep hill (like K2 perhaps).   There are many many high-quality female officer and enlisted soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen that would challenge your right to take away their ability to serve their country in the manner of their choosing.  Would you take from them, or simply marginalize what they are doing?  This young lady can make her own choice, on her own terms, with her own generations perspective on what is right and what is wrong for a woman to do in the world.  

Disclaimer: My DW and I are both USAFA graduates so this hits pretty close to home.  Some thoughts based on several of the comments being made:
1.  The military academies provide an education that is matched by very few universities.  Sure, some are better, but I doubt I'd be very far into counting toes before I reach them.  The academies have access to programs, equipment and facilities that typically are on the forefront of science.  For example, I thought the Astronautical Engineering department was amazing for the abundance of leading-edge facilities and a top-notch faculty it provided to the undergraduate student.  I think the most people I ever had in one class was around 20 and 1-on-1 help by the professor/instructor was there anytime you needed it.
2.  Sexual Misconduct - when these reports started coming out my DW and I talked to several friends around the world.  None of us (to include several ladies) ever heard of these things happening to anyone of our peers while we were there.  I'm not saying there wasn't anything going on USAFA, obviously there was.  But, I don't think it was as prevalent as depicted in the media.   The true issue was how the incidents were being covered up by the cadets and then poorly handled by the senior officers when finally reported.  USAFA leadership was fired/replaced, and a significant sexual misconduct and reporting/professional conduct training program was implimented.  I personally think you'd be less likely to have a problem in this area at the academies than at a civilian university.  Military academies are just under too much of a microscope and recent events (1999-2004 especially) make it even less likely to occur.
3.  I've served with and alongside many female officers and they run the same spectrum of quality as the men, and they may even lean toward the better officers around (as Nords alluded).  It's just a matter of time before I work for a lady, and I'd say I'm unusual in that it hasn't happened yet.  It's really not something I waste any brainpower on - someday I'll work for another person that happens to be a woman.  No difference...and I'm in a pretty combat oriented field too.  Is this really any diffent than the civilian world?
4.  It's not a life long decision when you are 18.  You can exit stage left any time in the first two years at a military academy without owing anything (at least if things haven't changed recently).  There is a commitment following graduation but as a taxpayer I'm sure you can see the importance of that.  You can get a pretty good set of experiences at a relatively young age to take with you to your next civilian job if you find the military isn't for you at the ripe old age of *cough* 26.  My wife decided to leave the AF after 6 years.  Based on the high level awards she was winning it probably should have been the other way around, but that was the choice that was made (by her I'd emphasize).  She doesn't regret her time on active duty at all, but I also know she is happy she left when she did.  
5.  The comment about the military not being for everyone is absolutely correct.  She really needs to consider what it means to be in the Navy before making the decision, especially in our current world.  Ditto if she decides to pursue ROTC at university.
6.  Someone already said this very well, but I'll just repeat that she's going to make this decision on her own.  You can steer and guide, but if she's determined it won't really matter.  I often wonder what my FIL thought (a Korea Navy man himself) when his daughter decided to to to USAFA.  Frankly, I don't think he was too fond of the idea, but he's a very supportive father.

And that's probably the most important thing.  Whatever her choice, wherever she decides to go to school, you've obviously got to back her decision 100%.  Your support for her decision will be critical to her success no matter where she winds up.

AV8

 

[Nords]

It's a different life.  It's a "warrior's life."  It's no longer a place to get a good, government paid education.  If you don't think you want to be a career military officer, it's not the place to go.  Most state schools are a bargain.  You aren't obligated for 6 years.

I'd like to know when it was a good time to attend a service academy!

I've read that very few academy grads make it to retirement. I'd like to see the numbers but I wouldn't be surprised if it's less than 10%. I do know that a service academy gives a brand, shiny new O-1 about a six months' head start over the average (and I mean middle-of-the-pack) OCS or ROTC graduate. After that they have to haul their own weight or get run over.

Just to put the latest number out there, I believe that the current service academy obligation is back to five years' active duty and three years in the Reserves (eight years total). Graduates are no longer given a Reserve commission-- they're active duty. After eight years no Reserve obligation is required.

And, as always, the first two years are free... so perhaps it's a good place to get half of a govt paid education.

 

[Sam]

Disclaimer: My DW and I are both USAFA graduates so this hits pretty close to home.  Some thoughts based on several of the comments being made:

AV8, thanks for your input.
Sam

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

WOW!

The mind reels at the resources on this board!

 

[bermondsey]

This sentiment, whether you (plural) support it or not is no longer relevant considering there are very few remaining specialties within the military that are not open to women. That's the "law of the land" and any effort to change it now would be going up a big steep hill (like K2 perhaps). There are many many high-quality female officer and enlisted soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen that would challenge your right to take away their ability to serve their country in the manner of their choosing. Would you take from them, or simply marginalize what they are doing? This young lady can make her own choice, on her own terms, with her own generations perspective on what is right and what is wrong for a woman to do in the world.


AV8

For clarification:I am not saying that women shouldn't have the right to serve in the armed forces although I consider the whole proposition ludicrous. A woman has no business in a combat zone.

I do agree though that if ones daughter were to opt for this line of work (i hesitate to use the word 'career') then it is only right to support her. It is her life and she will do what she wants with it, even if it means literally throwing it away.

As to 'serving their country' well that might even be of some use, as long as it is done on home soil.

 

[azanon]

I've read that very few academy grads make it to retirement. I'd like to see the numbers but I wouldn't be surprised if it's less than 10%.

Nords, you really need to stop talking about something you know nothing about. Well over half of the entering freshman class graduate. I trust AV8 to confirm that.

 

[Leslie]

On the contrary, Azanon Sr. I think Nords is nearly always on target.

 

[unclemick]

The little niece had a lotta fun packing her 45 leading armed boarding parties looking for oil smugglers in the Persian Gulf - although coming home I got the impression her 'bulletproof' attitude altered somewhat - since they refueled right before the USS Cole.

What is the definition of : fail to make it to retirement

 

[azanon]

I've read that very few academy grads make it to retirement.  I'd like to see the numbers but I wouldn't be surprised if it's less than 10%.

Nords, you really need to stop talking about something you know nothing about.   Well over half of the entering freshman class graduate.   I trust AV8 to confirm that.

.......

AV8, i'm compelled to at least respect your opinion on the sexual miscondut since you are an Academy graduate.   But I dont agree with it.   And your statement that you believe its actually less likely than at a civilian institution, I just dont see how you can see it that way.   Have you forgotten the power 3rd-1st classmen have over plebes and how that could be used against a woman?  Have you forgotten how they tend to not be able to keep up in BCT and how that pissed everyone else off?    Can you not see how they are heighened targets in a 10 to 1 male environment where you cant leave the campus for 2 years to deal with sexual frustration?  Have you forgotten how the USAFA is effectively isolated from the world and, that being the case, would easily see choice #1 to sweep a reported rape under the rug and/or quietly dismiss the offending male via the honor board? 

To be an USAFA graduate, and to do something i couldnt do, I think you're pretty naive about it.  Again, less probable than at a civilian university?   You're out of your mind.

BTW, i did ask the girl i work with who graduated from West Point would she do it again, in hindsight.   Her answer was no.

Azanon

BTW, Sam, i want you to know i did notice you didn't acknowledge my experience.

On the contrary, Azanon Sr.  I think Nords is nearly always on target.

His USNA discussion was all over the place and i found very little of it applicable to my actual experience.  He reads books about it.  I was actually there.  And for the specific point i called him out on (his claim that less than 10% of freshmen graduate), he's wrong.  AV8 can confirm that over half of entering freshmen graduate. Maybe he's thinking of the Navy Seals, hehe.

.........

All this sexual misconduit aside, I think the service academies are ripoffs.  If you want a life of hell and isolation, then go there.  If you want to forgot how to socially interact in the real world, go there.  If you want to learn how to be a pompous jerk, go there.   If you want to lose all your former friends, go there.   If you want to be told how great and elite you are daily, go there.   If you want a chance to die in Iraq for a stupid cause and greed of Oil, go there.   I could go on and on. 

Can you tell i'm still bitter about my experience?   

I've talked with dozens of people who started & dropped out of USNA before finishing the first year, and their stories are all filled with the same refrain of "I wish..."

I wish I had got the full ROTC scholarship instead.  The academy just sucked.   I cant believe people willingly put up with that BS for 4 years.  I feel embarressed that I did for 4 months.

Get this folks; when i had finally had enough, they counseled me for 2 WEEKS before they let me go.  I must have talked with 10 different people (as part of the outprocessing procedure), and everyone of them i told them i just want the f*** out.  It was all i could do to not just go AWOL.  They were all, in effect, begging me to stay.   I remember one of the counselors trying to tell me, like a car salesman, the "grass wasn't greener on the other side".   He couldnt be more wrong.  My following undergraduate and graduate school years were the most enjoyable of my life and I got the degrees to boot. 

 

[bermondsey]

On the subject of tattoos.

"Tattoos on the head, face or throat area will continue to be banned, and any sexist, racist or gang tattoo makes potential recruits "unfit for duty", Lt Hilferty stressed."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4859478.stm

So, most tattoos are not verboten. I guess some might consider that to be progress of sorts.

 

[Bimmerbill]

I think it would go a long way, at least in my mind, if the army had one standard for physical fitness. Currently, we have two, one for females and one for males.

If we are going to have an integrated force to include women in combat then hold everyone to the same standard.

 

[Maximillion]

You teach them to look both ways before the cross the street, you put training wheels and a Bike Helmet on so they won't get hurt if they fall over, you teach them not to talk to Strangers, put them in Driver Ed, you get them through all that and now you want to paint a Bulls eye on their arse and ship them over to face people who don't want them there

A Rich Kid who never served and stole an election makes up a whole pile of propaganda, and everyone wants to go kill some poor Arab who just wants to be left alone??

A Body Bag is an Equal Opportunity Container.

I was accepted into Royal Military College, did not go, No Regrets.

I served 6 Years with the Reserves(National Guard), No Regrets.

I graduated from University, did graduate Courses at 6 universities, including University of Chicago and USC, No Regrets.

I.R.A, I.Q.A, Same cause , differant religions.

 

[AV8]

Az,

I respect your opinion and your perspective.  The Academy, and the military itself, were obviously not for you.  That is an acceptable and understandable position for many/most people in the country (remember, less than 1% serve in the military).   I do, however, disagree with many of your conclusions.

You are correct about graduation rates.  We started with over 1400 students and graduated just under 1000.  The typical grad rate is just around two thirds (66%).  Part of the typical "welcome" on your day of arrival is to be told to look to your left and look to your right.  Most likely one of the three people won't be here at graduation.  There are many reasons for this, such as your personal situation where you realized it wasn't for you.  If I remember correctly though, most didn't make it due to academic reasons.  Having said all that, Nords was talking about Retirement from the military at a career that spanned at least 20 years.  Apples and oranges, I think you just misread what he posted.

I told DW about this thread and specifically discussed the sexual misconduct concern.  I reiterate that neither of us, nor our many friends ever saw anything of this nature.  Based on my background can I speak to civilian universities, no.  But its my opinion that they suffer just as many problems with underage drinking and sexual assault/misconduct.  It just doesn't make the news unless it is a prominent student such as the football teams star quarterback, etc.  

Please just have an open mind about the perspective of others while continueing to offer your personal experience.  Just don't throw around absolutes that may not apply to this young lady.

I'd post more but gotta go to w@#k.

AV8

 

[azanon]

Listen to Max!

One of the main reasons i'm funding my boy's 529 plan (and about to start a Coverdell too) is so he dont have to get a GI bill or apply to some paid for school like a service academy so he can go die for some worthless cause.

I would never forgive myself if I didnt save for him, he took one of these options because of it, and then i lost him.   But that's just me.

Azanon

 

[azanon]

If I remember correctly though, most didn't make it due to academic reasons.  Having said all that, Nords was talking about Retirement from the military at a career that spanned at least 20 years.  Apples and oranges, I think you just misread what he posted.

His career in the Navy I have no quarrel with his experiences.  But I find most all of his characterizations of the Academy to simply be inaccurate, at least from my brief experience.   I found no errors in what you said though; no surprise given you graduated from there, except for our disagreement on the risk of sexual misconduct there.

AV8, if anything, i think my opinion is mostly getting discarded, as was obvious by the opinions that Sam chose to acknowledge. 

You're right, it wasn't for me.  I really do not get the negativism approach they take there.  I failed to see how yelling in someone's face for a year and behaving in a hateful and arrogant way was making me a better person.  Maybe you can someday explain to me how that makes people better individuals.

Azanon

 

[brewer12345]

  I failed to see how yelling in someone's face for a year and behaving in a hateful and arrogant way was making me a better person.  Maybe you can someday explain to me how that makes people better individuals.

Azanon

I don't think making them better individuals is the point. Its an attempt to make them better soldiers.

It is also one of the many reasons I want nothing to do with any military anywhere...