Need help identifying bad electric socket

[Winemaker]

A few years after moving into our house, the outlets in the master bathroom failed. Before I called an electrician, I was fortunate enough to discover that it happened because a GFCI in the other bathroom had tripped.

To be clear, if I push the test button on the GFCI in one bathroom, the outlets in the other bathroom go dark.

Was that a total screwup on the installer's part, or is there a valid reason for doing it that way.

The National Electrical Code requires bathroom and kitchen outlets to be protected by a GFIC circuit and the lead outlet protects the downstream outlets. As samclem mentions to wire 2 rooms up that way is the cheaper way to do it , but up to code. Above all, you don't want several GFIC outlets on the same circuit/breaker, it would be a nightmare to troubleshoot.

 

[sengsational]

Since this thread has attracted some experienced people in the field, I got to wondering...


Is there a device you can connect at the breaker box that will send some kind of RF pinging down a circuit so you can follow the wiring with some kind of RF receiver?

 

[Retch The Grate]

For this sort of troubleshooting I just poke around the receptacles with my multimeter. When I get a weird reading unscrew the panel. The current house had an ungrounded outlet and a hot and neutral reversed outlet. Such fun. I didn't check the rest of the ones in the house, so I wonder how many of the others are messed up in some way as well.

 

[samclem]

Since this thread has attracted some experienced people in the field, I got to wondering...


Is there a device you can connect at the breaker box that will send some kind of RF pinging down a circuit so you can follow the wiring with some kind of RF receiver?

Yep, they make something like that. https://m.harborfreight.com/circuit-breaker-detective-96934.html?utm_referrer=direct/not provided

It's not RF, so you can't actually trace the wire. It is possible to follow the physical wire sometimes with a "sniffer", but you'd have to turn off all the other circuits.

 

[Winemaker]

Since this thread has attracted some experienced people in the field, I got to wondering...


Is there a device you can connect at the breaker box that will send some kind of RF pinging down a circuit so you can follow the wiring with some kind of RF receiver?

Most coal mining equipment runs on electric cable; 3 phase conductors 0000 to 18ga wire. We used various devices to troubleshoot broken conductors in cables, so yes they do make device that do that sort of thing. But they are much too pricey for the common man. I am not familiar with the device samclem speaks of, but will check it out later. I use a multimeter at home for any of my trouble shooting, and the device above that I believe aja showed.

 

[Bamaman]

When I buy a house, I take the time to go through the circuits and map out all my outlets. The overhead lighting is not so easy to map because it's all on separate circuits from the room outlets. It's so much easier chasing down problems when you know the outlets that belong to specific circuit #'s.

And I always look for the GFCI outlet and what outlets are behind it in a circle. They should be in a logical circuit--like in one room. Nothing worse than having dead outlets and not know where the GFCI outlet is so I can push the button.

My current house has 36 separate 110 volt breakers plus 220 circuits--and none are marked. I need to map it when I get a chance.

 

[a60dan]

My first practice retirement video

https://youtu.be/hQRpf7iYcF0

 

[travelover]

Yep, they make something like that. https://m.harborfreight.com/circuit-breaker-detective-96934.html?utm_referrer=direct/not provided

It's not RF, so you can't actually trace the wire. It is possible to follow the physical wire sometimes with a "sniffer", but you'd have to turn off all the other circuits.

I've not used the above one, but I do have this one. One needs to disconnect the power to the traced wire before using the tracer, but it allowed me to follow my wiring all over the house. Well worth the price even if only used once.

 

[travelover]

I really don't advocate for most homeowners to attempt to replace their own circuit breakers. A 110V shock can hurt you, but 220V can easily kill you. I've done tons of electrical work, but I won't touch the breaker wiring...

I know, 220 is very dangerous. I've mentioned it before, but there was some crazy guy in Europe that wired his ENTIRE house with 220 volts . I'm sure he is long dead by now.

 

[Winemaker]

Since this thread has attracted some experienced people in the field, I got to wondering...


Is there a device you can connect at the breaker box that will send some kind of RF pinging down a circuit so you can follow the wiring with some kind of RF receiver?

The device from Harbor Freight will identify circuits, but will not find shorts or broken wires. Perhaps I misunderstood your intent for a device in my previous post.

 

[street]

If you know what outlets and lights that don't work since the breaker won't hold. Then you can go mid way on that circuit and disconnect the wires from the outlet. Then go try the breaker and see if it holds or stays hot. Then you can go half ways again and repeat. This is how to sectionalize and narrow down the faulted cable or equipment. It wouldn't take very long to have the problem found.

 

[zedd]

If you know what outlets and lights that don't work since the breaker won't hold. Then you can go mid way on that circuit and disconnect the wires from the outlet. Then go try the breaker and see if it holds or stays hot. Then you can go half ways again and repeat. This is how to sectionalize and narrow down the faulted cable or equipment. It wouldn't take very long to have the problem found.

+1

 

[Ronstar]

If you know what outlets and lights that don't work since the breaker won't hold. Then you can go mid way on that circuit and disconnect the wires from the outlet. Then go try the breaker and see if it holds or stays hot. Then you can go half ways again and repeat. This is how to sectionalize and narrow down the faulted cable or equipment. It wouldn't take very long to have the problem found.

+2

 

[ncbill]

And I always look for the GFCI outlet and what outlets are behind it in a circle. They should be in a logical circuit--like in one room. Nothing worse than having dead outlets and not know where the GFCI outlet is so I can push the button.

My current house has 36 separate 110 volt breakers plus 220 circuits--and none are marked. I need to map it when I get a chance.

All bathroom outlets are on one circuit in my home...one GFCI outlet at the "head" which makes everything easier to troubleshoot, and minimizes the total number of circuits needed.

 

[mountainsoft]

One, and only one, of the power circuits to my home has gone out. Everything else not on the circuit works fine. Yes, I have checked the circuit breakers, several times.

The last time this happened I paid an Electrician a lot of money to identify the bad socket and replace it. I remember that he examined a number of sockets around the house to identify which was bad.

My question is how do I check the sockets to see which one is bad and has cut off the electricity to the entire circuit? I can't plug anything in to see if it works, since there is no current. I imagine I need some sort of device.

You have already had issues with one outlet before, and now another outlet has malfunctioned. Even if you track down the problem this time, you're likely to have the same problem again with a different outlet later. Electrical problems like that can be a potential fire hazard.

I would simply replace all of the outlets on that circuit. A box of 10 outlets is less than $20 at Home Depot or Lowes. It shouldn't take more than a couple hours to replace them all and you can inspect the wiring at each outlet in the process. Personally, I would replace ALL of the outlets in the house, but at least do that one circuit. I usually buy new cover plates too so the installation looks clean when you're done. I would probably replace the wall switches too so everything is updated at the same time.

Verify the breaker is off in the panel and put a piece of tape over it and/or lock the panel door to make sure no one else turns it back on while you're working. Then use a multimeter or a tester like aja8888 showed to make SURE the power is off at that specific outlet before you start working on it. Many houses are wired weird so don't assume that all living room outlets are on the living room circuit. TEST before working on them.

DO NOT use the back stab terminals, connect the wires securely using the side mount screws. Remember to wind the wire in the direction the screw turns so the connection tightens as you tighten the screw.

As for replacing the breaker, it's not that difficult if you have a newish panel with a main circuit breaker. Turn off the main breaker to disable power in the panel, then remove the panel cover and pop out the current breaker. Make SURE the new breaker is the same brand and style as your existing breaker. Move the wire from the old breaker to the new one, then pop the new breaker in.

Oh, and as for the 120V shock vs 240V killing, don't be fooled. You can die just as easily from a 120V circuit as a 240V circuit. It's the current that kills you, not the voltage. A static electricity shock can be thousands of volts but the current is low so it doesn't kill you. It only takes about 100ma to kill you so you can certainly die from a 120V 15A circuit.

https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/physics/p616/safety/fatal_current.html

 

[travelover]

............Then use a multimeter or a tester like aja8888 showed to make SURE the power is off at that specific outlet before you start working on it. Many houses are wired weird so don't assume that all living room outlets are on the living room circuit. TEST before working on them.................

I like to use a noncontact proximity tester to make sure no wires are hot. In my old house, I found several boxes where there were wires that were on separate fuses - all in the same box. https://www.harborfreight.com/non-contact-voltage-tester-63919.html

 

[Chuckanut]

I like to use a noncontact proximity tester to make sure no wires are hot. In my old house, I found several boxes where there were wires that were on separate fuses - all in the same box. https://www.harborfreight.com/non-contact-voltage-tester-63919.html

Mine are generally all in the same room, but there are enough exceptions to make me turn off the power to everything. I am going to pick up one of those testers.

 

[zedd]

You have already had issues with one outlet before, and now another outlet has malfunctioned. Even if you track down the problem this time, you're likely to have the same problem again with a different outlet later. Electrical problems like that can be a potential fire hazard.

I would simply replace all of the outlets on that circuit. A box of 10 outlets is less than $20 at Home Depot or Lowes. It shouldn't take more than a couple hours to replace them all and you can inspect the wiring at each outlet in the process. Personally, I would replace ALL of the outlets in the house, but at least do that one circuit. I usually buy new cover plates too so the installation looks clean when you're done. I would probably replace the wall switches too so everything is updated at the same time.

Verify the breaker is off in the panel and put a piece of tape over it and/or lock the panel door to make sure no one else turns it back on while you're working. Then use a multimeter or a tester like aja8888 showed to make SURE the power is off at that specific outlet before you start working on it. Many houses are wired weird so don't assume that all living room outlets are on the living room circuit. TEST before working on them.

DO NOT use the back stab terminals, connect the wires securely using the side mount screws. Remember to wind the wire in the direction the screw turns so the connection tightens as you tighten the screw.

As for replacing the breaker, it's not that difficult if you have a newish panel with a main circuit breaker. Turn off the main breaker to disable power in the panel, then remove the panel cover and pop out the current breaker. Make SURE the new breaker is the same brand and style as your existing breaker. Move the wire from the old breaker to the new one, then pop the new breaker in.

Oh, and as for the 120V shock vs 240V killing, don't be fooled. You can die just as easily from a 120V circuit as a 240V circuit. It's the current that kills you, not the voltage. A static electricity shock can be thousands of volts but the current is low so it doesn't kill you. It only takes about 100ma to kill you so you can certainly die from a 120V 15A circuit.

https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/physics/p616/safety/fatal_current.html

On a related topic, I was at a building materials recycling center (similar to Habit For Humanity) and had to cringe after seeing boxes and boxes of used electrical breakers and outlets. Good Lord, when in doubt, throw that old crap out.

 

[Bamaman]

I always carry an electrical tester that lights up when it is pointed to a hot wire or in a the post of a hot plug. I don't want any surprises.

 

[mountainsoft]

On a related topic, I was at a building materials recycling center (similar to Habit For Humanity) and had to cringe after seeing boxes and boxes of used electrical breakers and outlets. Good Lord, when in doubt, throw that old crap out.

Many years ago I tried to plan ahead for our new garage, and bought a box of electrical switches from the home center (along with some other supplies). It ended up being a few more years before we actually built the garage, but I used the switches I had already purchased.

I didn't give it much thought when I was installing them, but the switches I purchased years earlier did not have grounding lugs on them. The inspector told me the codes had changed and grounds were now required on switches too, but he passed the installation anyway.

Point of the story, don't buy electrical supplies until you need them as they may not meet electrical codes later on.

I've since replaced those old switches with new grounded switches.

On a related note, when we were building our house in 2003 I was fairly up to date on current plumbing and electrical codes. I was amazed how many items were sold at Home Depot and Lowes that did not meet codes at the time. A few items had been illegal to use for years but they were still selling them.