Electrical Question

[Sunset]

This is the area in question. It’s been in the 50’s here, but you can see ice stays in the shadows on the north side. It’s that way until about February.
The black cord is one of the heat tapes running down one of the downspouts.

Remember while you are up on the roof, we want to SEE around in more directions to know if the view is as GREAT as the little bit you showed us already..

 

[COcheesehead]

Remember while you are up on the roof, we want to SEE around in more directions to know if the view is as GREAT as the little bit you showed us already..

The view is pure Colorado.

 

[ERD50]

It worked as of last February when I unplugged the heat tape. Could it go bad just in that time frame?

Not picking on you, but as the "go to guy" among family and friends for fixing stuff, I often hear "it was working just last week/yesterday".

Well, that's the definition of "broken" isn't it? It was working, and now it isn't. It's broken. Yes, of course it can go bad in that time frame, or any time frame.

-ERD50

 

[COcheesehead]

Not picking on you, but as the "go to guy" among family and friends for fixing stuff, I often hear "it was working just last week/yesterday".

Well, that's the definition of "broken" isn't it? It was working, and now it isn't. It's broken. Yes, of course it can go bad in that time frame, or any time frame.

-ERD50

LOL, I get it.
The house is three years old so I have a paradigm that everything should just work.

 

[Car-Guy]

LOL, I get it.
The house is three years old so I have a paradigm that everything should just work.

I'm like that with my house and my cars. I want everything to work as they did when new. It really bugs me to even have a light bulb that is burned out.

 

[HarveyS]

I'm like that with my house and my cars. I want everything to work as they did when new. It really bugs me to even have a light bulb that is burned out.

+1

 

[427Vette]

If I remember correctly the NEC addressed this nuisance tripping of deicing equipment a few years back, article 426 I believe. It now allows an “equipment protection device” (EPD) breaker instead of a GFCI device for a circuit dedicated to heat tape type equipment only. I think the only difference is at what milliamp the device opens up. A standard GFI will open the circuit at about 5 milliamps where as an EPD opens up around 60 milliamps. Heat tapes are a constant PIA when wired to a standard GFI outlet designed to protect people. What you are experiencing is certainly not uncommon. An EPD breaker allows a bit more leakage before it trips. You may want to think about replacing the breaker then changing both outlets to standard outdoor rated duplex receptacles. It may save you from having to address this problem every few years.

I used to chuckle to myself when a customer would say something similar to what you mentioned above about if it could go bad in that timeframe. I would hear “it worked fine yesterday”. I would follow up with “well it wasn’t broke yesterday today it is”…

Good luck!

 

[misanman]

A little off subject but reminds me of when I worked as a computer consultant at the university data center. Frequently a graduate student would come in and say "My program worked perfectly yesterday and now it doesn't" and we'd say "Did you make any changes?" and they'd respond "Well, just a minor one but it couldn't possibly be the problem" and inevitably it was the problem.

 

[COcheesehead]

Again, thank you everyone for the advice.

 

[pjigar]

I flipped what I plugged in between the first and second outlet. It didn’t matter. It was always the second to plug that caused it to pop.

I have had GFCI like you mentioned. I ruled it out as a bad GFICI and I replaced the outlet.

 

[ERD50]

I have had GFCI like you mentioned. I ruled it out as a bad GFICI and I replaced the outlet.

I'm pretty sure that what OP is talking about is the kind of GFCI that is the outlet. But you are saying you replaced an outlet, not the GFCI?

Now, it is perfectly fine to 'daisy-chain' outlets after the GFCI, the GFCI will protect all the 'downstream' outlets. Maybe that is what you are talking about?

-ERD50

 

[COcheesehead]

I was going to wait to post a follow up, but here is what has happened since. Tried two new GFI’s yesterday and neither solved the issue. I have an electrician coming on Monday.

 

[finnski1]

I was going to wait to post a follow up, but here is what has happened since. Tried two new GFI’s yesterday and neither solved the issue. I have an electrician coming on Monday.

well then your next response will be in the BTD thread.

 

[COcheesehead]

well then your next response will be in the BTD thread.

And my other choice is…

 

[skyking1]

If I remember correctly the NEC addressed this nuisance tripping of deicing equipment a few years back, article 426 I believe. It now allows an “equipment protection device” (EPD) breaker instead of a GFCI device for a circuit dedicated to heat tape type equipment only. I think the only difference is at what milliamp the device opens up. A standard GFI will open the circuit at about 5 milliamps where as an EPD opens up around 60 milliamps. Heat tapes are a constant PIA when wired to a standard GFI outlet designed to protect people. What you are experiencing is certainly not uncommon. An EPD breaker allows a bit more leakage before it trips. You may want to think about replacing the breaker then changing both outlets to standard outdoor rated duplex receptacles. It may save you from having to address this problem every few years.

I used to chuckle to myself when a customer would say something similar to what you mentioned above about if it could go bad in that timeframe. I would hear “it worked fine yesterday”. I would follow up with “well it wasn’t broke yesterday today it is”…

Good luck!

good stuff to know, thank you. I am building new and don't have any heat tape areas that I know of, but time will tell on that.

 

[COcheesehead]

I think the outlets are already outdoor rated and covered with flexible rubber gaskets. Waiting to hear what the real problem is on Monday.

 

[COcheesehead]

Follow up and final resolution.
The electrician came out on Monday. A nice journeyman electrician. We went up on the roof and duplicated the problem. He looked at everything, GFI, electrical box, heat tapes, radon fan, Wi-Fi enabled outlet, etc and ultimately determined I was just trying to drive too much through the outlet. We plugged in the radon fan, the Wi-Fi plug and one of the two heat tapes and got all that to run without blowing the GFI, which he said was fine. He charged me $103 which I thought was reasonable for the 45 ish minutes he spent with me.
So I have 2 heat tapes (the second runs off a plug on another part of the roof) instead of 3, but both I can now power on/off with an app so I will save 5X what the electrician charged me on electricity this winter not having the tape on all the time.

 

[Koolau]

It worked as of last February when I unplugged the heat tape. Could it go bad just in that time frame?

I think they w*rk until they don't so it could literally be "It w*rked yesterday but not today." Just like an incandescent light bulb. YMMV

 

[ERD50]

Follow up and final resolution.
The electrician came out on Monday. A nice journeyman electrician. We went up on the roof and duplicated the problem. He looked at everything, GFI, electrical box, heat tapes, radon fan, Wi-Fi enabled outlet, etc and ultimately determined I was just trying to drive too much through the outlet. We plugged in the radon fan, the Wi-Fi plug and one of the two heat tapes and got all that to run without blowing the GFI, which he said was fine. He charged me $103 which I thought was reasonable for the 45 ish minutes he spent with me.
So I have 2 heat tapes (the second runs off a plug on another part of the roof) instead of 3, but both I can now power on/off with an app so I will save 5X what the electrician charged me on electricity this winter not having the tape on all the time.

Wait a minute, he didn't actually change out/'fix' anything, but something changed. From your OP:

I went up on the roof yesterday and plugged one strand in. Works fine. Plugged the second strand, popped the GFIC Tried multiple things in the second outlet. Didn’t matter, the second thing into the outlet popped the GFIC

So in OP, with one heat tape plugged in, anything in the 2nd outlet would trip the GFI. Now, you have one heat tape plugged in, and you can plug in stuff to a 2nd outlet (just not a 2nd heat tape), and it doesn't trip?

Maybe I'm not following you?

And "determined I was just trying to drive too much through the outlet." seems strange. Typically, that would be tripping the breaker, not the GFCI. I did hypothesize that it's possible (but highly unlikely), that both the heat tapes have some ground leakage, but not enough to trip the GFCI alone, but the two of them do. As I say, unlikely.

This still isn't adding up to me. And is the Wi-Fi switch weather-proof?

-ERD50

 

[COcheesehead]

Wait a minute, he didn't actually change out/'fix' anything, but something changed. From your OP:



So in OP, with one heat tape plugged in, anything in the 2nd outlet would trip the GFI. Now, you have one heat tape plugged in, and you can plug in stuff to a 2nd outlet (just not a 2nd heat tape), and it doesn't trip?

Maybe I'm not following you?

And "determined I was just trying to drive too much through the outlet." seems strange. Typically, that would be tripping the breaker, not the GFCI. I did hypothesize that it's possible (but highly unlikely), that both the heat tapes have some ground leakage, but not enough to trip the GFCI alone, but the two of them do. As I say, unlikely.

This still isn't adding up to me. And is the Wi-Fi switch weather-proof?

-ERD50

The outlet was overloaded. I tried so many combinations of things originally. The second set of eyes made all the difference. He determined nothing was blown, broke or out of whack. I just had too many things inline: weather proof Wi-Fi outlet, two heat tapes and the radon fan. Eliminating one of the heat tapes made it all work. Yes, I probably should have figured that out on my own, but truthfully I believed the posts here and thought I had a bad GFI. I spent two hours screwing around with that and I think that just lead to frustration. The electrician was a voice of calmness. The builder also had a three way up there which had worked in the past so I was trying to use that too. The electrician threw that away.
The GFI trips before the breaker, FYI.

 

[COcheesehead]

I think they w*rk until they don't so it could literally be "It w*rked yesterday but not today." Just like an incandescent light bulb. YMMV

The GFI was never the problem.

 

[ERD50]

... The outlet was overloaded. ...
The GFI trips before the breaker, FYI.

No, the GFI trips on a ground fault, not an overload (that's what the breaker is for).

Home Electrical Myths

MYTH: A GFCI receptacle will trip off if you overload it (run too many watts).

This is not true at all. Only the circuit breaker in your electrical panel cares about the amount of load things are using. A GFCI is not at all sensitive to that, but it is very sensitive to electrical leaks AWAY FROM the path that loads (running things) use.

Regardless, we will never resolve this from a distance and another party involved (the electrician), so I'll stop here.

I'm glad you have it resolved to your satisfaction. The puzzle is still a puzzle, IMO.

-ERD50

 

[COcheesehead]

The GFI in my case was tripping first. I never had a breaker trip the entire time.
The only thing that may be a puzzle is your understanding of the events. The mystery is solved and I get to have Wi-Fi enabled heat tape which was my goal.

 

[gauss]

edit: Oops -- Looks like you have a solution already.
---
Have you tried testing the outlet yet with the $15 GFCI tester available at home depot?
If this shows a problem then you can rule out your lights.

-gauss

 

[ERD50]

The outlet was overloaded. ...
The GFI trips before the breaker, FYI.

The GFI in my case was tripping first. I never had a breaker trip the entire time. ...

That's why I say the puzzle is still a puzzle. An overload trips the breaker, not the GFI, and you say the breaker never tripped (so therefore no overload - a contradiction).

If you want to get in the last word, have at it. But I'm a retired Electrical Engineer with a pretty good sense of and experience with home wiring as well, compared to your self-described limited knowledge/experience in this area.

Again, I'm glad it is working to your satisfaction, whatever the problem/solution was. I just like puzzles, that's all.

-ERD50