Ting Home Electrical Safety Sensor

[Ian S]

Today, I received an email from State Farm, our insurer offering a free Ting device that monitors the electrical wiring in the home to give advance warning of potential electrical faults that could result in a fire. Here's a description of the device and what it can detect: https://www.tingfire.com/how-ting-works/ It sounds like a good idea and I just wonder if anyone else has checked it out. I have a close personal friend that lost their house due to a fire of undetermined origin so I know the devastation house fires can cause even if everyone gets out safely.

 

[athena53]

I have one, also through State Farm. Truly plug and play although you do have to download the app.

 

[ERD50]

I've had one for maybe two years? I think the first three years are free (paid by State Farm). I didn't see any downside, and I can decide if I want to continue it if they stop paying, I probably will.

We have stable power here, but it has detected one surge to ~ 133 V (going by memory), and a couple brown outs (one I was aware of).

Since we've had it a while, with no apparent false alarms, I've been meaning to test it - I plan to connect a Neutral line to a file (the woodworking/metal filing kind), and a Hot lead through a 25W bulb (to limit current), and scrape them to simulate a loose connection. If I get no report, I'll increase the bulb wattage (to increase the current), and switch to a high watt heater until I do. Of course, I'll need to assure I can do this safely.

I think I read that it takes about 5 amps for a loose connection to start a fire, so a 100W bulb is just under 1 Amp, but higher in-rush when it starts cold for a fraction of a second.

-ERD50

 

[rk911]

I have one, also through State Farm. Truly plug and play although you do have to download the app.

Us as well.

 

[Jerry1]

I have one, also through State Farm. Truly plug and play although you do have to download the app.

So it doesn’t work without an internet connection? Not even an audible alarm from the base unit?

Not sure I would like that since when we lose power and go onto generator, we typically lose our internet connection. That seems like a prime time for an electrical problem.

I was very happy the other day when we lost power and internet that my eufy camera still worked. I turned on the generator and with power, my wifi was working but no internet. Still, my phone and the camera were connected to the wifi and the camera worked (I could use the app on my phone). My Ring cameras did not work because they needed an internet connection.

 

[ERD50]

So it doesn’t work without an internet connection? Not even an audible alarm from the base unit?

Not sure I would like that since when we lose power and go onto generator, we typically lose our internet connection. That seems like a prime time for an electrical problem.

I was very happy the other day when we lost power and internet that my eufy camera still worked. I turned on the generator and with power, my wifi was working but no internet. Still, my phone and the camera were connected to the wifi and the camera worked (I could use the app on my phone). My Ring cameras did not work because they needed an internet connection.

As I understand it, it captures data on your power, and sends this up to their cloud computer for analysis. The cloud computer appears to be smart enough to distinguish between noise generated by a vacuum cleaner or blender, versus the noise generated by a loose connection that could lead to a fire over time.

It's a warning that you have a condition that needs attention, not so much a real-time (though it is near real time) alarm. Loose connections tend to get worse over time, this should help you identify it and get it fixed before it starts a fire. I think that's the theory, read up on their website for the horse's mouth version.

-ERD50

 

[braumeister]

When I looked at the website, I was amused that the "how it works" section gives you a lot of verbiage but doesn't actually tell you "how it works."

Doesn't exactly inspire much confidence in me.

 

[Out-to-Lunch]

When I looked at the website, I was amused that the "how it works" section gives you a lot of verbiage but doesn't actually tell you "how it works."

Doesn't exactly inspire much confidence in me.

I had exactly the same experience and reaction!

 

[Mark1]

When I looked at the website, I was amused that the "how it works" section gives you a lot of verbiage but doesn't actually tell you "how it works."

Doesn't exactly inspire much confidence in me.

+1

Somewhat odd, I have had my home owner insurance with SF for probably 25+ years and have never seen this offer.

Also, without more information there is no way I would install this device. OK, you get an alarm that says you have an issue, but does it really tell you where/what the issue is? If not, then you go on a wild goose chase and have to find something. Otherwise SF could later say, "Hey, you're negligent as you know that you had an issue, but didn't address it".

I have a purple air particulate monitor in the house, and I'm always amazed at how high the reading gets almost instantly when I pop popcorn in the microwave. This is what popped into my mind when I read this post. Is this the same technology?

 

[rk911]

The device continuously monitors the flow of electricity thru the residence and sends alerts when appropriate. Real-Time and hidtorical data are available (see screen shots below)

Home Screen

REAL-TIME

HISTORICAL

We got the device because it was free for a few years. Beyond that we’ll see if the cost is reasonable.

 

[mountainsoft]

When I looked at the website, I was amused that the "how it works" section gives you a lot of verbiage but doesn't actually tell you "how it works."

Doesn't exactly inspire much confidence in me.

+2 - There's no technical explanation of how it works, and anything that requires a "subscription" is a no-go for me. The web site shows it plugged in to a 120V outlet, so I wonder how it detects an arc on the other 120V phase of the electrical supply. Even if it can somehow monitor both phases, how do I know which circuit/device is having the problem?

I'm just guessing, but I would assume this works much like an Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter (AFCI), detecting the high frequency signature of a bad arcing connection. Personally, I would rather have an AFCI turn off the power if a problem is detected than send data to a third party and/or send an alarm to my phone (A. I may not have my phone with me, and B. what if I'm not home to check on things).

When we built our house in 2003, AFCI's were required on all bedroom circuits. I believe the latest 2020 code requires them in most rooms of a house now.

Of course, a little common sense can go a long way. Replace worn out receptacles, don't run cords under carpets, don't hide junction boxes, don't overload outlets, replace old wiring (knob and tube, cloth covered, etc.), keep fans and other appliances clean, etc.

 

[ERD50]

When I looked at the website, I was amused that the "how it works" section gives you a lot of verbiage but doesn't actually tell you "how it works."

Doesn't exactly inspire much confidence in me.

It's just an overview, I didn't get any sense of lack of confidence based on that.

What do you expect, are they going to delve into it in ways that 99.9% of the population wouldn't understand? Go into how it's capturing samples, uploading that data for advanced DSP analysis, looking for specific harmonic and non-harmonic 'signatures' in the voltage variance that are indicative of certain faults?

I'm pretty sure they did have more of that in-depth info when I first signed up, but it was there for people who wanted to know more.

I think your response would be similar to saying that based on a car advert, you don't have confidence in the car, because they didn't explain how a 4 stroke engine works.

-ERD50

 

[Out-to-Lunch]

It's just an overview, I didn't get any sense of lack of confidence based on that.

What do you expect, are they going to delve into it in ways that 99.9% of the population wouldn't understand? Go into how it's capturing samples, uploading that data for advanced DSP analysis, looking for specific harmonic and non-harmonic 'signatures' in the voltage variance that are indicative of certain faults?

I'm pretty sure they did have more of that in-depth info when I first signed up, but it was there for people who wanted to know more.

I think your response would be similar to saying that based on a car advert, you don't have confidence in the car, because they didn't explain how a 4 stroke engine works.

-ERD50

One issue for me is that they titled the page "How Ting Works." And they titled the video "How Ting Works." And there doesn't appear to be a scintilla of an explanation of, you know, how Ting works. No mention of a physical principle being employed.

Okay, maybe lack of confidence is too strong, but annoyance and frustration.

 

[ERD50]

One issue for me is that they titled the page "How Ting Works." And they titled the video "How Ting Works." And there doesn't appear to be a scintilla of an explanation of, you know, how Ting works. No mention of a physical principle being employed.

Okay, maybe lack of confidence is too strong, but annoyance and frustration.

Well, it might not be enough to satisfy you, but I don't think it's accurate to say "there doesn't appear to be a scintilla of an explanation ".

As I said, would it help the average person to be told it's using DSP and what sort of analysis? Heck, some of it is likely proprietary. Even though I'm a techie, I think what they say is enough for the average person, and enough for me to have an idea what they do behind the scenes.

-ERD50

 

[athena53]

I've had one for maybe two years? I think the first three years are free (paid by State Farm). I didn't see any downside, and I can decide if I want to continue it if they stop paying, I probably will.

I didn't see the fine print about a subscription cost kicking in after 3 years. Yeah, I'll have to make a decision if that happens.

Somewhat odd, I have had my home owner insurance with SF for probably 25+ years and have never seen this offer.

I wonder if they're rolling it out state by state. They may need the approval of the state insurance regulators.

 

[ls99]

Off the cuff it looks like a glorified frequency and voltmeter. DUH. Kind of like a KillAwatt sold by various places. It is not likely to do anything actionable short of telling you to turn off main breaker if voltage is too high or unplug your frige if voltage too low, or frequent voltage drops. In either case by the time owner gets to do either, things usually have fried. Useless if no one at home.
It can tell insurer to sue the power company for out of range voltages. State Utility Commisions have set required prameters for utilities to maintain. Both voltage and frequency.

I have ragged on the local utility several times when they were wheeling power, indicated by slowly varying lightbulb intensity. Each time they fessed up and changed the feeding phase angle.

 

[badatmath]

I do think its legit and may just not be offered in all markets. This is anecdotal though. I remember hearing about it say a year or so ago.

Also, remember large companies like this do invest in things that help prevent costs in the future and improve safety.

 

[ERD50]

Off the cuff it looks like a glorified frequency and voltmeter. DUH. Kind of like a KillAwatt sold by various places. It is not likely to do anything actionable short of telling you to turn off main breaker if voltage is too high or unplug your frige if voltage too low, or frequent voltage drops. ....

No, that's not it at all. Much more than a Kil-A-Watt meter (I have one of those).

Read up, it is looking for the kind of noise a loose/arcing connection can put on the line. That's the warning that there may be a potential fire hazard.

The voltage/frequency monitoring is an added bonus, but not the main purpose.

-ERD50

 

[tfudtuckerpucker]

Per their statement, they claim it senses "tiny electromagnetic signals", caused by arcing. Just like the old spark gap transmitters, an electrical arc will produce RF noise. I suspect (just a guess) that's what they are sensing. Maybe there's a small dsp or circuit to screen for it. Before I bought such a device, I would like to see full test specifications for what it does. What parameters are claimed?
Furthermore, is it guaranteed to work? If a house fire is caused by an electrical fault, and this device doesn't detect it, is there recourse/guarantee? Has it ever been shown to detect a fault and prevent a fire? These are the questions I would ask. And yes, a $50/year subscription (times how many homes) in perpetuity is a sweet business model.

 

[badatmath]

I don't think SF owns Ting or gets benefits from the subscription.

The FAQ answers a lot of questions though of course maybe not well enough for some of you. https://www.tingfire.com/help/faq/ It doesn't appear to be spying on you. In that regard I think your doorbell is a bigger hazard but YMMV.

I am not with SF so IDK that other insurers will offer it or if you just buy it from Ting.

 

[youbet]

Well, it might not be enough to satisfy you, but I don't think it's accurate to say "there doesn't appear to be a scintilla of an explanation ".

As I said, would it help the average person to be told it's using DSP and what sort of analysis? Heck, some of it is likely proprietary. Even though I'm a techie, I think what they say is enough for the average person, and enough for me to have an idea what they do behind the scenes.

-ERD50

I'm definitely not a "techie," (was sitting in Latin, Fine Arts and Non-Western Studies classes instead of the engineering classes you guys took) but the functional description of the Ting reminds me of the spark gap transmissions of early radio. RF energy was created when the radio operator closed his key and an arc passed between two electrodes. Is that what's happening when household wiring has a loose connection and arcs? RF is created and is detected and analyzed by the Ting?

It looks like it also monitors voltage, power outages, etc.

With the hardware and the service free for three years, I'm going to give it a try. If nothing else, I can look at the app while traveling.

 

[ERD50]

Per their statement, they claim it senses "tiny electromagnetic signals", caused by arcing. Just like the old spark gap transmitters, an electrical arc will produce RF noise. I suspect (just a guess) that's what they are sensing. ...

No, there is nothing to support the idea they are looking for RF (edit, see my next post for clarification - they may be detecting RF, but not through the air, I don't think. Only RF that is conducted along the power lines). It sounds like they are detecting the voltage fluctuations that occur with typical arcing.

... Before I bought such a device, I would like to see full test specifications for what it does. ... Has it ever been shown to detect a fault and prevent a fire? These are the questions I would ask. And yes, a $50/year subscription (times how many homes) in perpetuity is a sweet business model.

It's good to be skeptical, but since initially there was no money from me, I went on 'faith' that State Farm did enough research to determine that it made financial sense for them to supply these to reduce claims from electrical fires. What other motivation could there be?

As I get closer to having to pay for the annual fee, I'll do a deeper dive.

... Furthermore, is it guaranteed to work? If a house fire is caused by an electrical fault, and this device doesn't detect it, is there recourse/guarantee? ...

No, there is no guarantee, there really couldn't be. Electrical fires can be caused by things other than arcing, and not all arcing is going to fit a profile. If they tried to detect everything, they'd have too many false positives, and people would unplug them.

They claim to catch something like 70% of the arcing that causes fires. Perfect is the enemy of good.

There's some white papers I found, I'll look sometime later.

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

I'm definitely not a "techie," (was sitting in Latin, Fine Arts and Non-Western Studies classes instead of the engineering classes you guys took) but the functional description of the Ting reminds me of the spark gap transmissions of early radio. RF energy was created when the radio operator closed his key and an arc passed between two electrodes. Is that what's happening when household wiring has a loose connection and arcs? RF is created and is detected and analyzed by the Ting?

It looks like it also monitors voltage, power outages, etc.

Well, the arcing could be creating RF signals that are being detected by the Ting device - I took some of the comments of RF as meaning being detected by radiated RF (through the air, detected by an antenna in the Ting device), rather than RF conducted along the power lines.

I suspect the device is looking more in the time domain, looking at slew rates of the noise, and maybe time between pulses, rather than looking more in the frequency domain for specific frequencies (radio or other) associated with arcing. Could be some of both, but I do believe it is all conducted signal being measured, not the propagated electromagnetic wave (through the air).

-ERD50

 

[ls99]

From Ting website:
"Once Learning Mode is complete, when electrical fire hazards are not present, the home screen banner will be green and indicate "No Hazards Detected."
Every home contains many miles of wiring and many hundreds of electrical connections. Ting monitors the entire electrical network in your home to detect loose connections, damaged wires, and faulty appliances. Any one of these conditions can develop at any time and could lead to electrical fires. Ting also monitors the quality of power delivered to your home by your electric utility, detecting utility grid problems that can result in an electrical fire in your home or damage appliances and electronic devices. In areas prone to wildfires, these utility grid faults can also serve as an ignition source for these fires.
If at any time Ting detects a potential electrical fire hazard, the Ting Sensor App will indicate a hazard and send a notification to your smartphone. Our team will also contact you by email, text, and/or voice phone call. We'll advise whether the hazard is likely within your home or originating from your electric utility. If needed and with your approval, the Ting Service Team will coordinate a visit from a licensed Electrician to find and/or fix the hazard. Your Ting service includes up to $1,000 to cover labor related to an Electrician visit (see Ting Service Terms for details). If advisable, Ting will also support you in contacting your electric utility to repair grid faults."
"Ting is not designed to measure power or energy consumption in the home. The Ting sensor measures voltage to monitor your electrical network for electrical fire hazards."


Users would be well advised to read and understand the personal info the company collects.


An excerpt:
"Information We Obtain from Other Sources
We may collect anonymized information about you from other sources, such as publicly available databases and other third parties that have the right to share such information. The categories of information we get from these other sources may include:

• Aggregated demographic data, such as birth year, gender, and income level, used to customize website content and advertising and to learn more about our web audiences;
• Publicly-observed data, such as activities on blogs, videos, and other online postings, used to customize content and advertising;
• Public data about your home or structure, such as home profile, home size, and age of home.
• Employment-related data, including information from a recruitment agency if you are applying for a job with us, is used to help us match applicants to open positions;
• We collect information about you through interactive applications (e.g., mobile devices, third-party social networking services, and embedded video platforms where we post videos related to our Services), from co-branded partners and websites (e.g., on our Facebook pages), and from commercially-available sources (e.g., public databases)."

Meh, I'll pass.
Would be useful if actual data were published on problem findings and fixes.

 

[badatmath]

So Ting is basically like every other thing in the world?! I'd say I have virtually nothing not collecting data on me though I do try to limit the number of new things that can.