Oenophiles?

[ERD50]

When working and going to our Brussels office, my favorite Belgian beer was Brugge Tripel. Have not had it in years.

And yes, the Belgians are a little crazy with the glass thing (I think it is actually in the law, but could be wrong on that).

If it isn't a law, it's surely as close as makes no difference.

My first visit to Belgium was about 1998 and I totally fell in love with the country. Since then I've been back roughly every other year and today I have two good Belgian friends that I met on those trips.

As someone mentioned, Belgium is a beer-crazy nation. At one time there were more breweries per capita than anywhere else, although I think the USA has since surpassed them.

From my trip to Budapest in 2011 - my first meal there was lunch, a cold whitefish salad and a Rodenbach Grand Cru. Looks like they have the Rodenbach glass as well.

https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/216/673/ -- SCORE 96 (World-Class)


-ERD50

 

[Al in Ohio]

Recently had dinner for two at a nice restaurant. With two drinks, total came to $300 (BTD). My problem has to do with the wine.



I am not an oenophile by any means, but I have some friends who are. One invented some kind of monitoring device for people who collect expensive wines to be able to prove that they were stored properly.



One year with him and some other wine lovers at Olives at Bellagio, the sommlier gave us a lesson on wine glasses. We had a cabernet, one glass a bourdeaux or a glass with a fairly large bowl, and the same cabernet in a chablis glass. The chablis glass tasted thin and watery, while in the red wine glass it was full and delicious, so much so that when we were done with the "lesson", and he went to pour the chablis glass wine into the red wine glass, at first I said no, I don't want that stuff, then realized its the same wine, just in a different glass.



Well, at the restaurant above, I ordered a cabernet with my steak. Not only did they bring the wine in the wrong glass, it was chilled. And at $36 a glass. When I asked the waiter about it, he basically said, we have to keep it chilled or it goes bad, and then, what do you want me to do about it?



I felt like telling him where to put the wine, but he ended up going back, finding a room temperature bottle, and pouring it into another white wine glass. Sigh.



When I asked why they couldn't serve the wine in a red wine glass he said that the people who stayed at the hotel took them all and/or broke them. I noticed they had a 2008 Petrus for $6,295 on the menu. But they don't have red wine glasses. Really



My daughter was mad I tipped the guy at all, as he also charged us for a drink we didn't order on the final bill.



Am I being too fussy, or do you think the type of wine glass makes a difference to your enjoyment of the wine?

No not at all. You are on point and if you don’t try to correct or rectify a serious lack of proper protocol that should be expected they may never change. Nor figure out how many knowledgeable customers are turned off.

 

[Al in Ohio]

We have had some remarkably bad dining experiences the few times we’ve been out post covid. I think the restaurant and hotel industries are being hammered by staff shortages and rising costs and they’re cutting corners everywhere they can. We stayed at an upscale resort recently and it was quickly clear most of the waitstaff at the hotel had never worked in he industry before.

That said, I thought red wine was supposed to be slightly chilled?

No! Red wine served at room temp. Should be stored “cool” in cellar.

 

[audreyh1]

That said, I thought red wine was supposed to be slightly chilled?

No! Red wine served at room temp. Should be stored “cool” in cellar.

“Room temperature” for red wine is 60-68 degrees. That’s room temperature for northern climes I suppose.

If I served it at my TX room temperature (usually 77-78) it would be way too warm.

My “cellar” stores our reds at 57 degrees. After a pour a glass of wine warms up to that 60-68 range relatively quickly.

But warmer than that - ick!

 

[Markola]

+1. If it’s hot out, making the wine flabby, there’s nothing wrong with asking for an ice bucket to bring the bottle, red or white, wine temp down to cellar range in the 50Fs after 10-15 minutes in the ice. Restaurant wine is expensive so one might as well enjoy it.

 

[Winemaker]

“Room temperature” for red wine is 60-68 degrees. That’s room temperature for northern climes I suppose.

Spot on. My rule of thumb to someone who has their wine in a wine rack in their living room or dining room which is usually 70-72 degrees year round is thus: 1 For dry reds, put in fridge 30 minutes before serving. 2 Whites, put in fridge 2-3 hours before serving, take out of fridge 30 minutes before servin. 3 Ignore 1 and 2, if you like it a different way, after all it is what you enjoy that is most important.

 

[tulak]

Hmm…I’m enjoying a Pinot Noir over ice. Definitely on the cooler side and refreshing on a warm summer day.

I guess I didn’t get the temp right, but at least it’s in a Riedel glass? [emoji2]

 

[ownyourfuture]

This thread reminds me of my all-time favorite episode of Colombo.
https://columbo.fandom.com/wiki/Any_Old_Port_in_a_Storm

 

[audreyh1]

Hmm…I’m enjoying a Pinot Noir over ice. Definitely on the cooler side and refreshing on a warm summer day.

I guess I didn’t get the temp right, but at least it’s in a Riedel glass? [emoji2]

Pinot noir is best served slightly chilled at 55-60 degrees, cooler than most other reds.

But I don’t know about pouring it over ice.

I occasionally make myself a white wine gespritzer Austrian style with sparkling water. Both are chilled. That’s a very refreshing summer drink.

 

[Winemaker]

I dunno. If I get thrown out of a restaurant, I don't think quoting you will make a difference. I'd rather be safe.

I guess there is equal amount of people who would gasp at you putting ice in a glass, as there are people who think wine is old grape juice for snobs. Or Chysler over Mercedes, Aldi ground meat over Waygu!

 

[ERD50]

Hmm…I’m enjoying a Pinot Noir over ice. Definitely on the cooler side and refreshing on a warm summer day.

I guess I didn’t get the temp right, but at least it’s in a Riedel glass? [emoji2]

I don't know - that might make it worse!

At least if you use the wrong glass, people will just think to themselves "that person is clueless (about wine)". But using a nice glass, and putting it over ice, people will think "Geesh - they should know better!".

And this is all in fun, for those who might take all this more seriously than intended.

-ERD50

 

[Badger]

I guess there is equal amount of people who would gasp at you putting ice in a glass, as there are people who think wine is old grape juice for snobs. Or Chysler over Mercedes, Aldi ground meat over Waygu!

I never really thought of myself as being a wine snob when I was in college drinking Ripple.


Cheers!

 

[NW-Bound]

I guess there is equal amount of people who would gasp at you putting ice in a glass, as there are people who think wine is old grape juice for snobs. Or Chysler over Mercedes, Aldi ground meat over Waygu!

Those are the only choices?

No Toyota, or VW? No tenderloin, or rib eye, not even sirloin?

Argh, what to do, what to do?

 

[tulak]

Pinot noir is best served slightly chilled at 55-60 degrees, cooler than most other reds.

But I don’t know about pouring it over ice.

I occasionally make myself a white wine gespritzer Austrian style with sparkling water. Both are chilled. That’s a very refreshing summer drink.

I also enjoy white wine with sparkling water. I appreciate watering back wines: less buzz, they last longer, and they’re more refreshing too. Ice works well for me and usually I use a white, but this summer I’ve enjoyed reds. Pinot noir works well since it’s a lighter red.

 

[tulak]

I don't know - that might make it worse!



At least if you use the wrong glass, people will just think to themselves "that person is clueless (about wine)". But using a nice glass, and putting it over ice, people will think "Geesh - they should know better!".



And this is all in fun, for those who might take all this more seriously than intended.



-ERD50

I’m definitely breaking some rules, but I figure I might do it in style with the right glassware. [emoji41]

I find a lot of this comes down to preference.

When I travel, I always experiment with local
wines, sometimes from places where you don’t expect to find any local wine. The last place was Puerto Vallarta where I had a Mexican red blend. It was served cool and maybe that’s for the better. I had a second glass though, so it couldn’t have been too bad. I’ve also had local
wines in India and Thailand. But my favorites are uncommon/local varietals, especially in Europe. It’s a lot harder to find those in the US.

And it’s all best not to take any of this too seriously. It’s only wine after all!

 

[NW-Bound]

Speaking of wine, I recall the following from a book mentioned by Chuckanut in a thread last year: Extra Virgin Amongst the Olive Groves of Liguria, Annie Hawes, 2001.

The British author bought a small primitive place in the hills a few miles inland from Diano Marina, which was meant to be a place for a town inhabitant to spend a night or two during the grape or olive harvest season, and not as a permanent housing. She recounted many interesting anecdotes about the peculiar and charming habits of the locals. Some of them spoke mainly Ligurian, and were not even well versed in the common Italian language.

Initially, she kept hearing them referring to wine as vino d'uva. which means grape vine. She asked if they also made wine from other fruits besides grape, to which they said no. Then, why not simply called it vino, she asked. The locals replied that they wanted to distinguish their homemade wine from commercial wines bought in bottles at the stores. The latter is made from grape all right, but who knows what else is put in there, they said.

The homemade wine was stored in jugs, and topped off with a layer of olive oil, also home made, on top to seal the surface of the wine from air. After pouring, they just blew off the droplets of oil that float on top of the wine.

Very interesting book, and full of stories that one would not find elsewhere. The author hung around with the locals and peasants in Liguria, and knew a lot more about their customs and habit, and had so many interesting stories to tell, more than the best-seller memoirs of Peter Mayle covering his time among the Provencial French. Mayle was a millionaire, and he observed the local French from a distance, and did not mingle with the laborers and peasants. Books by Annie Hawes would sell much better, if she had an editor to organize the content differently.

 

[marko]

This is a bit long and somewhat off-topic but here is an excerpt from one of my journals. It was written about 15 years ago on a visit with my French friend Daniel to a 'winery' in Provence: (note, Daniel had never been there but knew what to look for!)

"The town was so small that cars were not allowed on most of the streets as they –the cars, were too wide for the streets. You could stand in the middle of the road and just about touch the houses on each side.

As we approached town, we arrived upon four very old ladies, dressed in the compulsory head-to-toe black who were walking in the middle of a narrow street; empty plastic gallon jugs in their hands.

Daniel slowed his car to a creep behind them.

“What are we doing now?” I asked.

“Shhhh…just wait”.

So here was this odd, impromptu little parade. Daniel and me in his shiny new BMW crawling along this barely paved, tree lined road led by four old ladies obliviously chatting away amongst each other. They didn’t know –and probably wouldn’t care if they did know—that we were only 10 feet behind them, rolling along at their snail’s pace.

This went on for about 15 minutes which translated to only a few hundred feet. Good thing the air conditioning worked. I fell asleep for awhile only to find that when I woke the parade was still in full waddle.

Finally, the old ladies hooked a left and ducked into their destination: an old and apparently abandoned gas station.

It wasn’t really abandoned, but the owners had just abandoned the idea of selling gasoline.

“Here we are! Get out!” Daniel announced.

We walked into the gas station to find an enormous stainless steel tank –about as big as a school bus. Sitting on a stool talking to the ladies was an equally old man with a garden hose in his hand. The garden hose was connected to the tank on one end and a regular hose spray nozzle on the other.

From the nozzle, he was filling the empty gallon jugs with –red wine.

Having filled their jugs, chatted for a while, munching on a bit of bread and cheese, the proprietor bid the ladies a cordial and lengthy ‘au revoir’ and then turned his attention to us. He looked at us as though we had just appeared in place, but we had been standing there for over twenty minutes.

At this point Daniel went into his ritual French discussion about what kind of wine was in the tank, where it came from, who was the vintner, who the proprietor’s family was, who Daniel was, and so on and so on and so on.

Another twenty minutes of French jabbering about wine, cheese, bread, weather, politics, food, dogs, cats, cars and –the one subject you can rarely escape in France, World War II.

In the end, the old man handed us juice glasses and, with a bit of flourish hauled out his garden hose, squeezed the nozzle and poured us each a nice juice glass of wine.

The wine was actually pretty good. Very good.

From my experience, you’d pay about $25 for a bottle of this quality.

After another twenty minutes of arguing about the plusses and minuses of the contents of our juice glass, Daniel produced about 20 Euros ($25) and for that tidy sum, the old man loaded two cases (!!) of wine into the trunk of the BMW.

At a buck a bottle, Daniel had made a fairly good score.

“It is nothing…you can get good wine like this all the time around here…for peanuts”.

 

[FLJim]

The wine glass may have an impact on the aroma as it is claimed by oenophiles. However, my sense of smell may not be that good, and quite often I do not care that much.

And of course, when I drink Yellowtail nearly all the time, what can I say about this subject, other than I often add ice cubes to my wine when it is hot. It's 115F outside, man. Can I call it a wine cooler and get away with it?

What's THAT? Why are you bringing out a noose? AARGH!


PS. I do not add ice cubes to wine all the time. Only when I am very thirsty, and feel like it. And I do not do it in public places.

Thirsty? Ugh. Wine is a condiment, NOT a beverage. Wine will NOT quench your thirst. Ugh again.

 

[NW-Bound]

Sometimes, I drink wine the normal way. Sometimes, I drink it with ice.

The wine I drink with ice is the daily drinker, which is not expensive.


PS. I wanted to see whose feathers I ruffled.

 

[doneat54]

Fun thread that resonates. DW and I are Oenophiles for sure, especially since my love of cooking has taken off since retiring 4.5 years ago. Two, no three observations....

To the OP who paid $36 for a glass of wine served in the wrong glass, I would have been BS! and demanded to speak to a manager before I paid my bill. With stupid high prices, come stupid high expectations.

The talk of Thunderbird, and MD2020, LOL. Back in my days living in SC, we used to call those wines "Fight yer mama"....

For us today, we always try new wines constantly, and use the Vivino app a lot in the stores. I am a go to Chardonnay drinker (usually with seafood) and we talk about the "food line", there are good wines, but then there are wines that step up to food perfectly (Sonoma Cutrer Chardonnay, Russian River Valley, with Lobster for example). Some are great porch sippers, but some demand food.

 

[Old Microbiologist]

Having the blessing of living in Europe and especially as we live in an excellent wine-producing region that is not exported anywhere else due to the inequality that exists within the EU is a blessing in disguise. We have access to many local wines and I consider myself an expert now. I also know personally several local producers as we are more or less among the rich social spectrum here so associate mostly with that social stratum and all of them are self-anointed aristocracy with all the pomp etc. that goes with it. I consider Hungarian wines among the best in the world and I have been exposed to many wines around the world. I spent 8 years of my military career living in Germany and I grew up in California where my second wife had several friends who majored in Enology and eventually became cellar masters for major California producers (and are award-winning cellar masters). So, I have had a large exposure to many wine-producing regions and access to selected producers at a personal level. We drink a bottle of something every day (usually reds). Here we have some excellent wines but the most expensive (generally) varieties are amazingly cheap. Other than specific older vintages an excellent bottle of Hungarian wine will cost something like $40-$50. We tend to buy them by the case. All that BS about storage etc. is IMHO fairly ridiculous. Yes, I move a bottle to the correct temperature prior to serving and I do store the cases in our lower cellar which is the correct constant temperature. I don't unbox them at all just keep the cases down there until I need a bottle. We also get French, German and interestingly some very good Russian (Crimean) wines. Lidl actually sells decent (not great though) French wines. The same with the tasting rituals. I have Hungarian friends that will reject bottles. They weren't that bad to me and I would avoid them in the future but not bad enough to reject. I know how to taste a wine and actually had to attend a wine tasting school as my second wife was the Defense Attache in Paris where wine drinking is a rarefied art form and you are expected to know what you are doing and that includes spouses. The State Department arranged for a training program in DC for this (it also included an amazingly excellent course on defensive driving to avoid kidnapping, assassination, or other nefarious stuff). I didn't actually go with her to Paris as I was in the middle of doing my Ph.D. but I took advantage of the training offered which also included clothing (something else the French aristocracy judges you by).

 

[timo2]

Hmm…I’m enjoying a Pinot Noir over ice. Definitely on the cooler side and refreshing on a warm summer day.

I guess I didn’t get the temp right, but at least it’s in a Riedel glass? [emoji2]

DW also enjoys a Pinot Noir over ice. No other wine, only the Pinots'. I've become used to this sacrilege, but Pinots' seem to be popular with ice.

 

[Markola]

For us today, we always try new wines constantly, and use the Vivino app a lot in the stores.

+1 on the Vivino app. It’s a kind of dud eliminator. I scan every label to get crowd-sourced info. Anything 3.8 or higher with a good price of $20 or below, I’m interested. Recently, I scanned at Trader Joe’s and found a Provence rose, a Languedoc Pinot Noir, a couple of New Zealand Sauvignon Blancs and more that were highly rated at absurdly low prices around $6. I could resist and bought a case of different stuff. Every bottle punched above its weight.

 

[JoshTrent]

Recently had dinner for two at a nice restaurant. With two drinks, total came to $300 (BTD). My problem has to do with the wine.

I am not an oenophile by any means, but I have some friends who are. One invented some kind of monitoring device for people who collect expensive wines to be able to prove that they were stored properly.

One year with him and some other wine lovers at Olives at Bellagio, the sommlier gave us a lesson on wine glasses. We had a cabernet, one glass a bourdeaux or a glass with a fairly large bowl, and the same cabernet in a chablis glass. The chablis glass tasted thin and watery, while in the red wine glass it was full and delicious, so much so that when we were done with the "lesson", and he went to pour the chablis glass wine into the red wine glass, at first I said no, I don't want that stuff, then realized its the same wine, just in a different glass.

Well, at the restaurant above, I ordered a cabernet with my steak. Not only did they bring the wine in the wrong glass, it was chilled. And at $36 a glass. When I asked the waiter about it, he basically said, we have to keep it chilled or it goes bad, and then, what do you want me to do about it?

I felt like telling him where to put the wine, but he ended up going back, finding a room temperature bottle, and pouring it into another white wine glass. Sigh.

When I asked why they couldn't serve the wine in a red wine glass he said that the people who stayed at the hotel took them all and/or broke them. I noticed they had a 2008 Petrus for $6,295 on the menu. But they don't have red wine glasses. Really

My daughter was mad I tipped the guy at all, as he also charged us for a drink we didn't order on the final bill.

Am I being too fussy, or do you think the type of wine glass makes a difference to your enjoyment of the wine?

Certified Oenophile here.. having worked in industry surrounded by certified & advanced sommeliers for the past 20+ years (to include 3 Master Somms) I can amply say, you received bad wine service. So much so, I personally, would not have tipped the Server on the price of the wine, nor would I have paid for a drink I didn't order. A server in a restaurant may be limited by his tools, but ignorance on the other hand, is not to be rewarded. If the server's attitude seemed impressionable (and it is a restaurant that I would visit again), I would have taken their name, forwarded them a copy of the book I mention below, and included a note of encouragement.

To address the questions in your post:
I don't think it's fussy to expect a $36 glass of Cab to be in a Cab Glass.
..and..
Yes, the glass in which a wine a served, may have an effect of your enjoyment of a wine. Of course, how one enjoys wine (and which wine they enjoy), is a personal decision based on unique preferences. It's definitely not a one-size-fits-all type of situation.

Having said that, I would only expect "Fine Dining" restaurants and possibly those restaurants that are owned by a celebrity chef, to have "appropriate" glassware for wine service. Of course, those are the same locations I would expect the wine service to be top notch, and handled by a Sommelier.

For those who haven't had the experience of a passionate Sommelier lead them through wine selections during a meal, it can be a life changing event. Especially Sommeliers who have had personal experiences with Vintners and are well traveled.

To any of those here who would like to learn more about wine, I suggest Kevin Zraly's Windows on the World..
https://www.amazon.com/Kevin-Zraly-Windows-Complete-Course/dp/1454942177/ref=asc_df_1454942177/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=459706669091&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9596235833619135266&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1014895&hvtargid=pla-941609942576&psc=1

This book is used as the basis for the Level I Training from the Court of Master Sommeliers.
https://www.mastersommeliers.org

 

[Chuckanut]

As for the glasses, I do believe in the glass making a difference, however, I've seen a lot of French and Italians at home drinking wine from a juice glass, so...go figure.

You should have seen my Italian-American relatives who made wine in their garages. They would fill a tumbler full of the wine, hand it to their guests and say "Drink!". Riedel? Never met the guy.

Despite the above, I do agree that the right glass makes a difference. I used to doubt that just as I doubted wine had to breath ( I was a stupid young guy back then.) Live and learn.

For $36 a glass, or even for $36 a bottle, I would expect the wine to be properly served at the proper temperature. Period.