Red State Views

[bpp]

who was the major power that supported the American Colonies during the Rev. War?

France.

Bpp

 

[bosco]

Bosco--Your absolutely correct if the bully is bigger/stronger/meaner than you are you will get beat up. But in this case WE are bigger/stronger, but not really meaner, but we can win.

The big difference between Vietnam and Iraq is Iraq is not supported by Russia, North Vietnam was. The Vietnamese also were hiding in Cambodia, a place we didn't want to go. So we did secret incursions there, but quickly went back to Vietnam. The Iraq insurgents are supported by criminals and terrorists, not a major world power.

At the time the French pulled out of Vietnam, Ho Chi Minh was called "the George Washington" of Vietnam. At the time the US installed their puppet, Diem into the phony puppet republic called "South Vietnam" Ho Chi Minh was estimated to have 80% support, and Diem, with US sanction, cancelled the reunification election that was called for under the Geneva Accords rather than allow a democratic election. If I recall correctly, Diem was a major heroin trafficer (I could be wrong on that point). He was the typical US general-installed-as-puppet. Recall that later in the war, one of the favorite ways to smuggle heroin into the US was on the body of US servicemen.

It is virtually impossible to win a war under those conditions. Yes, Russia supplied some material support. It was the hearts and minds of the Vietnamese that defeated the US.

Few nations have done as much bullying in recent history as the US. From Chile (illegally assassinating Allende) to Cuba (Bay of Pigs and the idiotic trade embargo), Iraq (I'm talking about before the gulf wars--helped establish Saddam as a way to have him attack Iran), Iran (after the Shah was deposed and a left-leaning prime minister was elected who threatened to nationalize the oil interests, the CIA and British intelligence engineered a counter-coup and reinstalled the Shah), it has been the policy of the US to install and maintain dictators rather than support democracy if the Democracy was not aligned with corporate interests, which it usually wasn't. Sometimes those damned foreigners don't vote the way we want them to and it's a lot harder to rig elections in other courtries than it is at home.

Yes, I am an American (actually dual US-Canadian citizen) and appreciate many things about the US. Its foreign policy is not one of them.

 

[laurence]

who was the major power that supported the American Colonies during the Rev. War?

France.

Bpp

Wow, usually people are ready to poo-poo France, but yes, France nominally supported the war, mostly after it's conclusion was no longer in doubt!

 

[bpp]

Wow, usually people are ready to poo-poo France, but yes, France nominally supported the war, mostly after it's conclusion was no longer in doubt!

They were rather more important than that. They declared war on Britain in sympathy with the colonists fairly early on (while the colonists were still regularly losing battles), tying up British military resources away from the Americas. They provided significant amounts of money and arms to the colonists, and their direct military assistance was instrumental in achieving the surrender at Yorktown.

They committed in a quite meaningful way well before the conclusion was in sight, and while it was still very much in doubt. The American Revolution might well have failed without their support.

 

[saluki9]

Saluki, man, give it up...you're bailing water out of a sinking ship ( the neofascist republican party.)

And I say good riddance to bad rubbish!

When all rational arguments fail, call names!

:

 

[F-One]

Saluki9,

And your rational auguments for the supporters of the current administration are...........

 

[brewer12345]

The big difference between Vietnam and Iraq is Iraq is not supported by Russia, North Vietnam was.  The Vietnamese also were hiding in Cambodia, a place we didn't want to go.  So we did secret incursions there, but quickly went back to Vietnam.  The Iraq insurgents are supported by criminals and terrorists, not a major world power. 

Hmmm, somehow I can't help but think about the Afghan mess. The Soviets spent, what?, 10 years throwing their considerable military against a bunch of tinpot warlords who I don't believe got material support from anyone. They eventually left in defeat. The place ended up in anarchy until we stuck our snouts in. Reminds me of Viet Nam an awful lot. And I feel really sorry for whoever comes in after us in Iraq to try to clean up the mess...

 

[bpp]

Hmmm, somehow I can't help but think about the Afghan mess.  The Soviets spent, what?, 10 years throwing their considerable military against a bunch of tinpot warlords who I don't believe got material support from anyone.

...other than the US, which was funneling weapons and money to Osama bin Laden and the mujahedeen to help them drive the Soviets out of Afghanistan.

 

[brewer12345]

...other than the US, which was funneling weapons and money to Osama bin Laden and the mujahedeen to help them drive the Soviets out of Afghanistan.

Note that I specifically said "material." Not sure how much and what was actually given to the local warlords and nutballs. Probably no way to ever really know.

 

[poboy]

For what it is worth, just returned from voting, republican primary of course.  As I tell my dem  pals, you vote your way and I vote mine.  I don't think I can  sway you and you won't sway me.  

 

[bpp]

Note that I specifically said "material."

Guns and money don't count as "material"?  Anyway, it was much more than mere moral support, I believe.

Not sure how much and what was actually given to the local warlords and nutballs.  Probably no way to ever really know.

True.

 

[bpp]

Delayed reaction, but:

According to the rules relating to political disagreements on the internet it is now appropriate to post the following

That t-shirt speaks to me. I was a hippie child growing up, and it was indeed the results of the 2000 election that got me off my butt to finally figure out how to vote absentee in 2004. Yup, darn right I'll vote now. (Though I do expect to be disappointed eventually, whoever wins.)

 

[unclemick]

Hmmm

Since I was born a democrat - I vote dem. If someone else has a good idea - let him convince a democrat and I'll vote for the democrat. The republican branch of the family pretty much is the same - except for my sister who 'claims' to be independant - and then votes republican.

She even thinks the Pat's are a good football team.

Go figure.

heh heh heh heh heh heh

 

[bosco]

Note that I specifically said "material."

Guns and money don't count as "material"? Anyway, it was much more than mere moral support, I believe.

Not sure how much and what was actually given to the local warlords and nutballs. Probably no way to ever really know.

True.

this is a perfect example of how US media choose to not significantly support the extent of US activities abroad.

In fact, the US spend a lot of money to destabilize the left-leaning regime in Afghanisitan. It was this destabilization that suckered the Russians into involvement. This was part of the plan for the "global war on Commumism." The US continued to prop up tin-pot generals in Pakistan, and funneled huge amounts of weapons and support using the Pakistani military as conduit. This was done, not out of any concern whatsoever for Afghanistan (notice how quickly all help there disappeared once the Russians left) but as a way to engage the Russians by proxy and give them a black eye. But at what cost in innocent lives?

This kind of activity has nothing to do with red or blue states. Both democratic and republican administrations have engaged in this kind of meddling.

 

[Dawg52]

Hmmm

Since I was born a democrat - I vote dem. If someone else has a good idea - let him convince a democrat and I'll vote for the democrat. The republican branch of the family pretty much is the same - except for my sister who 'claims' to be independant - and then votes republican.

She even thinks the Pat's are a good football team.

Go figure.

heh heh heh heh heh heh

Yup and this is why you will always have a President in power with some support. Some will support their party no matter what. BTW, the Pat's are a good football team. They certainly have a winner with their quarterback. 

 

[bosco]

While we are on the subject, any of you folks heard of Major General Smedly Butler (1888-1940), described by Douglas MacArthur as 'one of the really great generals in American history' and two-time winner of the Medal of Honor?

He wrote a book after he retired entitled "War as Racket" which basically laid out his opposition to offensive wars and that in the future he would defend his country from attack but would never again be a "racketeer for capitalism." In 1933, he wrote

"There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its 'finger-men' to point out the enemies, its 'muscle-men' to destroy enemies, its 'brain men' to plan war preparations and a 'Big Boss' Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

It may seem odd for me, a military man, to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent 33 years and 4 mounths in active military service as a memeber of this country's most agile military force. the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major General. And during that period, I spend most of my time being a high class muscle-man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it.

I helped make Honduras 'right' for American fruit companies in 1903. I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothres in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China, I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

 

[unclemick]

December 7, 1941

Sounds like Smedly held a popular American view - until we got an additude adjustment.

heh heh heh heh

 

[bosco]

December 7, 1941

Sounds like Smedly held a popular American view - until we got an additude adjustment.

heh heh heh heh

Smedly was the first to say he would fight to defend America if attacked.

 

[alphabet soup]

While we are on the subject, any of you folks heard of Major General Smedly Butler (1888-1940), described by Douglas MacArthur as 'one of the really great generals in American history' and two-time winner of the Medal of Honor?

He wrote a book after he retired entitled "War as Racket" which basically laid out his opposition to offensive wars and that in the future he would defend his country from attack but would never again be a "racketeer for capitalism."  In 1933, he wrote

"There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to.  It has its 'finger-men' to point out the enemies, its 'muscle-men' to destroy enemies, its 'brain men' to plan war preparations and a 'Big Boss' Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

It may seem odd for me, a military man, to adopt such a comparison.  Truthfulness compels me to.  I spent 33 years and 4 mounths in active military service as a memeber of this country's most agile military force. the Marine Corps.  I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major General.  And during that period, I spend most of my time being a high class muscle-man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers.  In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time.  Now I am sure of it.

I helped make Honduras 'right' for American fruit companies in 1903.  I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914.  I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in.  I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street.  The record of racketeering is long.  I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothres in 1909-1912.  I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916.  In China, I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested. 

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket.  Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints.  The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts.  I operated on three continents."

Thank you, bosco, for bringing up Smedley D. Butler. But, you left out the best part.

In 1934, Gen. Butler went to Congress to report he'd been approached by a group representing fascist leaning corporatists who were plotting to overthrow the Roosevelt administration in a military coup.

Before you neocons on this board spit up your koolaid, go look it up for yourselves.

How much easier it is today, when the fascist/republicans can just rig elections. (go to Rolling Stone online and read Bobby Kennedy Jr's very detailed story on the theft of the 2004 election.

So, folks, nothing's really new. The military-industrial complex is always there, plotting to erode our liberties. They're just making more headway these days.

 

[mickj]

While we are on the subject, any of you folks heard of Major General Smedly Butler (1888-1940), described by Douglas MacArthur as 'one of the really great generals in American history' and two-time winner of the Medal of Honor?

He wrote a book after he retired entitled "War as Racket" which basically laid out his opposition to offensive wars and that in the future he would defend his country from attack but would never again be a "racketeer for capitalism." In 1933, he wrote

"There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its 'finger-men' to point out the enemies, its 'muscle-men' to destroy enemies, its 'brain men' to plan war preparations and a 'Big Boss' Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

It may seem odd for me, a military man, to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent 33 years and 4 mounths in active military service as a memeber of this country's most agile military force. the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major General. And during that period, I spend most of my time being a high class muscle-man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it.

I helped make Honduras 'right' for American fruit companies in 1903. I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothres in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China, I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

Thank you, bosco, for bringing up Smedley D. Butler. But, you left out the best part.

In 1934, Gen. Butler went to Congress to report he'd been approached by a group representing fascist leaning corporatists who were plotting to overthrow the Roosevelt administration in a military coup.

Before you neocons on this board spit up your koolaid, go look it up for yourselves.

How much easier it is today, when the fascist/republicans can just rig elections. (go to Rolling Stone online and read Bobby Kennedy Jr's very detailed story on the theft of the 2004 election.

So, folks, nothing's really new. The military-industrial complex is always there, plotting to erode our liberties. They're just making more headway these days.

Not that I don't doubt that Republicans would steal an election, but so would the Democrats if they could.

 

[saluki9]

The big difference between Vietnam and Iraq is Iraq is not supported by Russia, North Vietnam was. The Vietnamese also were hiding in Cambodia, a place we didn't want to go. So we did secret incursions there, but quickly went back to Vietnam. The Iraq insurgents are supported by criminals and terrorists, not a major world power.

Hmmm, somehow I can't help but think about the Afghan mess. The Soviets spent, what?, 10 years throwing their considerable military against a bunch of tinpot warlords who I don't believe got material support from anyone. They eventually left in defeat. The place ended up in anarchy until we stuck our snouts in. Reminds me of Viet Nam an awful lot. And I feel really sorry for whoever comes in after us in Iraq to try to clean up the mess...

Brewer, if you ever get a chance, read the book Charlie Wilson's War. It's a true story about how congressman Charlie Wilson basically gave the Mujahadeen enough money and weapons to establish an enormous army. The amount of arms we sent them is simply amazing. We ARE the reason they beat the soviets, without the help of the CIA the tribesmen were getting cut down by the soviets by the thousands.

Also don't forget that the Afghans were getting BILLIONS of $$$ from the Saudi royal family. Much of it organized by whats his name?

 

[Leonidas]

Not that I don't doubt that Republicans would steal an election, but so would the Democrats if they could.

So, folks, nothing's really new. The military-industrial complex is always there, plotting to erode our liberties. They're just making more headway these days.

I don't think we can just point in one direction (Republics vs Democrats or the "military-industrial complex") to find someone looking to manipulate and steal our elections and our rights. Whenever there is something worth stealing there will be someone looking to grab it.

 

[saluki9]

(go to Rolling Stone online and read Bobby Kennedy Jr's very detailed story on the theft of the 2004 election.

Hmmmm, based on the author and the publisher I'm sure the article is very balanced.

 

[bosco]

Again, it's not about Democrats or Republicans. It's about our "corporate masters" controlling governments for their interets rather than those of the public. Yes, I realize we all own stock in companies.

Clinton was as bad or worse as any in terms of being a corporate lackey. In fact, the Demos probably did steal the 1960 election (courtesy of lots of dead Cook county voters).

 

[donheff]

Clinton was as bad or worse as any in terms of being a corporate lackey. In fact, the Demos probably did steal the 1960 election (courtesy of lots of dead Cook county voters).

Hey, I was born and raised on da south side. Dey weren't "dead" voters, dey were legitimate ghosts. And every one of em was registered.