Retirement vs Perfect Job

Does anyone have a beneficial use for dog and cat hair?  ...
We used large quantities of the dog variety to keep our boat afloat.

At the last inspection before we traded Dory for Erin (the boat you see as my image to the left), the inspector chastised us for keeping the dog in the engine room. (Big diesel engines suck a lot of air, and stray dog hair was pulled through every possible opening into the engine room, so it only looked like we kept this mutt in the engine room:

CruiseSouth2002-sandy-at-work.jpg


That's my story and I'm sticking to it.)

Dory36

PS: OK, he does perform some useful duties. Here he is protecting us from a rogue dolphin:

CruiseSouth2002-dol-3.jpg
 
Those approaching ER are enthralled by the prospect of ditching the office, and that anticipatory fantasizing probably accounts for 20-30% of the board's posts. Those of us just starting ER (after two years I still count myself in that group) are still recovering from extensive burnout while trying to decide what our true interests are.

That's an excellent point. I think there is going to be a natural selection bias as well since those who are doing the least will have the most time to spend on this board!

I'm actually reading Po Bronson's book right now, which is part of what's prompted this sudden rash of altruism.

I don't want to begrudge anyone a couple of years off. I'm glad to see most people taking a healthy view in this debate. Its just that aspiring to 30-40 years of sloth...well maybe that's a problem.

eridanus2: you claim to support Dory's post, and the infallibility of the free market, but don't you realize that those two are contradictory?
 
I think your concern is misplaced.

We joke, but I've seen more cases of ERs helping others than I can count.

I have started and erased several accounts of these acts, but they don't matter.

I think that most people who retire early are not doing so because they want to be couch potatoes the rest of their lives. I have never met anyone in this category, although I am sure a few of these cases exist.

Rather, most retire early because they finally realize that accumulating more money than they reasonably need for the rest of their lives was not worth spending time doing something they disliked doing. I can't see anything noble in doing so. Can you?

If they were greedy and selfish people, they probably wouldn't retire early and give up the future income. If they do, they won't change their nature.

If they are not, then they will likely continue to contribute to their fellow man just as they probably did before they retired - only they will no longer be constrained by time in what they can offer.

OK, enough of this serious stuff - I'm going back to lighthearted and frivilous! :D

Dory36
 
SG--Wife does all the washing/drying and I really don't care about dryer sheets...  
Oh noooooooooo. . . . Tell me it's not true. :'(

I'm not sure about Dory's rules, but I think that kind of attitude may get you banned to *****' board. :D
 
I've just read 2 pages of posts in this thread, all posted within the last day!

So here's the plan:

1) All ER's need to sit down and write out an ER Mission Statement.

2) Then we will break into small groups to further flesh out the issue.

3) Then, after lunch, a member from each group will get up and give a presentation.

4) Then we will break up into DIFFERENT groups, and assemble a model of what we think retirement is all about. While blindfolded. Using drinking straws, dryer sheets, and a stapler.

5) After the afternoon break, we will view a short video on "Sloth".

7) Then some one-on-one reverse-role playing.

8 ) We will wrap up today at about 5:30.
At which point all of you can go back to your offices, check your phone messages and emails, and do all the work you didn't get accomplished while attending this helpful seminar.


AAaaaahhhhhhh help meee help meee :p

It still comes back to me, like a bad meal...
 
Re:  Ya gotta have goals.

Telly,

I thought Paul Terhorst already did that here-- http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Shores/5315/bodywork.html .


GDER,

I have two other retirement goals:
1. Collect more pension than salary. BONUS CREDIT: Collect more pension even after adjusting the two figures for inflation.

2. Have my photo at the top of the "oldest living alumni" page of my college magazine. BONUS CREDIT: Have my photo taken with my wife. EXTRA BONUS CREDIT: Have the photo taken while we're both still alive.
 
eridanus2:  you claim to support Dory's post, and the infallibility of the free market, but don't you realize that those two are contradictory?

Since I'm not a believer in the infallibility of the free market, the post and my position are not contradictory.
 
If you don't care about dryer sheets, then you obviously don't understand the pressing needs of laundry!

Historically, about 4% of the laundry we wore needed to be pressed, but now we don't wear laundry that needs to be pressed.

We have accomplished this by switching to an asset mix of 50% no-press attire and 50% who-cares-if-it-is-wrinkled attire.

I think that reduced our Safe Washing Requirement considerably.

I am looking for help in producing DRYcalc, to help us all understand our requirements for dryer sheets over an extended period of time.

Dory36
 
Aha! Got my cookies working. :D

I've never used dryer sheets. Always line dried. If it's raining, I'll hang them in the garage on an old extension cord strung along the rafters.
 
I've just read 2 pages of posts in this thread, all posted within the last day!

So here's the plan:

...

aiiiieeeee - If the future of retiring is being a seminar facilitator/planner, I'm running back to work :)

Sounds like a schedule for one of the days where I had to work from home because of family issues, or maybe one of the days where the customer I was working with had a problem that was really hot, and would probably blow up if I didn't get it fixed....

Wayne
 
I've just read 2 pages of posts in this thread, all posted within the last day!

So here's the plan:

1) All ER's need to sit down and write out an ER Mission Statement.
[...]
8 ) We will wrap up today at about 5:30.
At which point all of you can go back to your offices, check your phone messages and emails, and do all the work you didn't get accomplished while attending this helpful seminar.


AAaaaahhhhhhh help meee help meee :p

It still comes back to me, like a bad meal...

Take two large glasses of wine, and call me in the morning. I believe this too shall pass.

Dory, when you do DRYcalc, make sure we factor in the scrap factors. That little corner of one I found on the floor softened and destatic'd two more loads. It was such a small scrap, it must have been one of my girlfriends tiny fragments.

I have a simple wardrobe with regards to pressing. I'm sure some of it is supposed to get some. I dont give a $##$ and just wear it the way it comes off the hanger.
 
Dory, when you do DRYcalc, make sure we factor in the scrap factors.  
Also consider about .20% of the dryer sheet is lost due to thermal lint trap convection, which is a little known dryer phenomenon.


I dont give a $##$ and just wear it the way it comes off the hanger.
This has been the plan my entire life and I don't see it changing any time soon. If it can't go straight from the dryer to the hanger it just isn't worth wearing...
 
Well considering I cut my own hair and only shave once or twice a week I dont think a wrinkle or two in my shirt is going to make a big difference :D
 
I started cutting my own hair also about a year ago. The $12 a month at Supercuts was getting to be too much in my opinion. I was having a hard time paying the $11, but when they raised their prices by $1, I knew I had to do something. I went out and bought a clipper set for $18 and haven't looked back. No wait in line and takes only five minutes.

(the above may sound like I'm joking... unfortunately I'm not :-/ )
 
I have a simple wardrobe with regards to pressing.  I'm sure some of it is supposed to get some.  I dont give a $##$ and just wear it the way it comes off the hanger.
fire5soon said:
This has been the plan my entire life and I don't see it changing any time soon. If it can't go straight from the dryer to the hanger it just isn't worth wearing...

What's a hanger? Why wouldn't you just store the clothes you aren't wearing in the dryer or on the line till you need them? :)
 
I started cutting my own hair also about a year ago.  The $12 a month at Supercuts was getting to be too much in my opinion.  I was having a hard time paying the $11, but when they raised their prices by $1, I knew I had to do something.  I went out and bought a clipper set for $18 and haven't looked back.  No wait in line and takes only five minutes.

(the above may sound like I'm joking... unfortunately I'm not  :-/ )
I still spend the $10 it costs me to get a haircut at the shop down the street. And I get it cut once a year whether it needs it or not. :)
 
What's a hanger? Why wouldn't you just store the clothes you aren't wearing in the dryer or on the line till you need them? :)

If it makes you feel any better, everything except shirts and pants are rolled into balls and shoved into the cabinet with the most available room.

The results of 42 years as a bachelor.
 
It's interesting to see the reaction to someone challenging, in even this small way, the orthodoxy of this board.  Didn't Dominguez coin the acronym FIRE?  If I remember correctly the purpose of FI was to work at MORE important pursuits than your current grind, rather than less.  

Ted, may I ask, what ways are you finding to contribute in retirement (besides raising the level of discussion on this board, of course)?

I've been out of town recently and didn't have the chance to respond to the various posts "knocking" me for having the audacity to say what I have said starting with my very first post in this forum. But I would like to respond to bongo2.

I recognize that it is people's right to retire early and totally "drop out" of society, in the sense of no longer contributing anything of economic value, while necessarily continuing to consume what is being produced by others.

From a totally objective, economic standpoint, this is going to become increasingly more difficult for individuals to finance, and increasingly harmful to the overall standard of living in the U.S. Rational economic policies such as international free trade (if not killed by protectionism) and restraint on deficit financing will tend to reduce the damage, but will not totally correct it. The only way to do that is by making adjustments to laws and customs that will encourage people to continue contributing their skills to the economy for as long as they are physically and mentally able to do so.

As I have said in several posts, I regard the ideal "model" to be one of people progressively cutting back on the number of hours worked per week, but continuing to work in the area of their greatest ability. A perfectly acceptable alternative is for people to quit work and start new activities that may very well not pay as much per hour, but which are satisfying to them and (preferably) contribute to the happiness/welfare of others.

I have mentioned this numerous times, and yet all that it seems to mean to most of the participants on this board can be summarized in this quote from GDER that "I think Ted's solution is to work until you drop dead." I'm sure that GDER really does think that that is all that I am saying.

Personally, I have done this by lobbying for political reform of a local sanitation district that, I am convinced, would save 10% to 20% of the costs of a projected $5 billion in expenditures on public works over the next 20 years or so. (That translates into a cost savings of $500 mi9llion to $1 billion.) And I am also working towards becoming registered as an investment advisor, with the idea that I would provide "fee only" investment advice, essentially on a one-time basis similar to a class in investing that a person might take, only on a highly personalized basis.

From the standpoint of my personal values, I don't categorize retiring and "dropping out" as "morally wrong," as long as people are retiring and supporting themselves on "credits" that they have legitimately earned.

But I also think that the highest form of morality is a commitment to the welfare of people other than ourselves or our immediate families. Neither I nor most other people can do this as effectively, or as selflessly, as people like George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Theodore Roosevelt, or Dan Jordan, an acquaintance of mine who was killed in action in Vietnam (where by the flip of a coin I could have been). But those of us who make some effort to achieve this ideal, in my estimation, are a damn site better human beings than those who don't.

And frankly, guys, I'm through giving free investment advice to a bunch of people who obviously don't. (I don't include Dory36 in this category because he is providing a very useful public service with FIRECalc, in addition to whatever else he is probably doing that is of value to the community.)

Bye y'all.
 
Sorry to see you go, Ted. I enjoyed reading your posts.
 
I too am sorry to see you go Ted. What makes this board so useful is the diversity of opinions. I certainly enjoyed reading the quality of your many posts Ted. I will miss your contribution if it is your decision to not post here again.
 
Hang in here, Ted! It is human nature to start feeling defensive when someone points out that actions such as they are taking are not in the best interests of the public. Take their defensiveness as nothing more than that.

I am guessing that anyone who felt they were being attacked personally by your comments on the issues of early retirement and the economy now feels comfortable, having read
From the standpoint of my personal values, I don't categorize retiring and "dropping out" as "morally wrong," as long as people are retiring and supporting themselves on "credits" that they have legitimately earned.

If not, so what?

I don't know why, but I'm reminded of the two guys Billy-Bob and Joe-Bob from the hills who decided to take a college course. But they had no idea what to take, so Billy-Bob approaches a professor and asks him.

Prof: Well, there are lots of good courses, but I teach logic. I think it is a great course for anyone to take.

Billy-Bob: What the heck is "logic"?

Prof: It is the science of formal reasoning, of using rules and inference to reach valid conclusions.

Billy-Bob: Huh?

Prof: Let me give an example. Do you have a lawnmower?

Billy-Bob: Yep.

Prof: Well, then I conclude you are heterosexual.

Billy-Bob: Well yeah, but how did you figure that from me having a lawnmower?

Prof: Logic. Since you have a lawn mower, I can assume you have a lawn. If you have a lawn, you must have a house. If you have a house, you are very likely to be married. And if you are married, you are probably heterosexual. You see, none of these rules are absolute, but all are logical conclusions. By understanding the rules of inference and formal reasoning, we can often reach valid conclusions that do not seem obvious from the initial facts we know.

Billy-Bob returns to the table where Joe-Bob is waiting, and announces he is going to take Logic 101.

Joe-Bob: What the heck is logic?

Billy-Bob: Let me give you an example. Do you have a lawnmower?

Joe-Bob: No.

Billy-Bob: I knew it! You're gay!

Dory36
 
All:

Would have addressed my comments to Ted, but his last post was a bye y'all signoff.
Don't like the idea that I may be piling on, but anyway-.

Have gleaned some pretty good ideas from a number of posters on this board.

My own observations from the posts I have seen are that most of the posters are pretty middle of the road, hard working types that "built up plenty of credits".

I was pretty miserable the last year that I spent chasing the buck.

When I decided to pull the pin, there were two very happy folks. Me, and the guy that replaced me. (Happy ending).

I think Teds problem with the board was he didn't understand the congregation that he was preaching to.

Jarhead
 
Aw Ted, you can't go! You're an oldtimer here, and I always enjoyed reading and thinking about your economic posts (and I think I've said that in the past, too :)). And you have helped me, and many many others here. So walk around the house 10 times, and come on back!

I agree with you on the idea of being able to wind down work as a transistion to retirement. I certainly would have liked to, like working 2 days a week, or something like that. Alas, when an industry crashes and thousands and thousands of people are going out the door, there was no alternative.

In good times, the corporate world would have to make a lot of structural changes to do it. Many issues to be addressed, like:

Vacation Benefits - None? - or scaled-down?
Same for Holiday pay
Same for sick days
Effects on Retirement Plan elegibility/$ inflow in part-time work?
401k plan effects
All the mandatory classes on no harassment, etc. etc. become a bigger expense per-person if hours are reduced.
Can the work still be done per-schedule if a person is part-time?
Or is there enough work that is not time-critical that part-time people could do those tasks?

Right now, I don't think many companies are in a mindset to create another class of employees, and work out these issues. I think they should, but it may take a "full employement economy" again, and a shortage of skilled workers to nudge them to think about it. I think it may take a leader company, someone very profitable to do it. Then others may follow as the "right thing to do".

My experiences with the corporate "Human Relations" people is that they do the least possible work. They were the ones I saw putting in 8 hours a day max (really, they usually came in late, and often left early!). These people would be the ones to research and implement a plan, with all of its adjustments. I just don't see them being interested in the concept.

Overall, I think it could be made to work, if the number of transitioners is very small. But the culture will need a major overhaul to make it happen.

Different topic - One time Financial Planning for a fee. I think that is a better idea for people than going to "Financial Advisors" whose ulterior motive is to sell what they have in their stable, (all with "no fees" to the user, of course ;) ).
I have learned a lot since I got started in this, and I got started in an emergency. I had enough sense and gut feel to steer out of the worst clutches, but there are many things I would have done differently if I knew then what I know now.
An unbiased person who could have laid out some plans of action, with well-reasoned backup, would have been a big plus. But I would really have to feel that they were working in my best interest. Something better than a financial doc-in-a-box program. And if they really are working in my best interest, with no kickbacks from the investment choices, then my paying them a fee is the only inducement they will have to take the job on.

In contrast to the above, a fee-based planner who collects 2% of someones portfolio each and every year to "maintain" it sounds more like a leech!
 
Ted: I, too, am sorry to see you go. I'll miss the high quality of the financial advice contained in your posts, as well as the sagacity of your observations on retired life.
 

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