Search Underway for Titanic Tourist Submarine

[Koolau]

In other words the CF and titanium are glued together !

I once flew in an aircraft with bonded rather than riveted wings. The American Yankee - eventually the Grumman Yankee. Good airplane. No idea how the submersible was bonded. I'm sure it was more than Gorilla Glue.

 

[Beststash]

This is a private venture - who is paying for the massive rescue effort? It is their right to try anything they would like but a tour of a sunken ship by a tourist sub does not warrant the millions of dollars that it will cost (and I'm sure the bill will go to the government).

Harsh? Nope.

edited to add: It looks like one of the passengers is a billionaire so my concern is likely in error.

 

[Sunset]

The only bit of Karma in the story, is the CEO of the dive company was driving it.
I wonder if he now regrets not adding some more safety features, signalling devices, even making the thing out of whatever deep subs are made of.

At least he won't be building a replacement one to continue the business if this turns out bad.

 

[Cortina]

Signs of life (noise) being reported this morning ...... better than I thought at this point ... good news !

 

[marko]

Signs of life (noise) being reported this morning ...... better than I thought at this point ... good news !

Great news if they can get to them in time. Horrific if they can't.

Implosion would have been more merciful.

Doesn't seem to have been a lot of failsafe safety planning.

 

[Gumby]

I wouldn't get my hopes up. There are a lot of weird noises in the ocean.

 

[freedomatlast]

What could go wrong? The CEO hired only inexperienced college grad level engineers with no subject matter experts, it's only E powered and controlled with a WIRELESS PS3 controller, and hatch is bolted on with 17 bolts. That's just for starters........

https://youtu.be/4dka29FSZac

 

[Aerides]

I wouldn't get my hopes up. There are a lot of weird noises in the ocean.

Yeah, and finding the source of noise is needle-in-a-haystack territory. I also haven't heard of any existing capabilities to get something else down there to get them out that can go, and be controlled, that deep, in the next 24 hours.

 

[Go-NoGo]

It is my understanding that implosion events are notorious for their tremendous energy and a very loud sound which has it's unique sound signature. Considering the capabilities of the US Navy's sonar assets, which are designed to detect and track Russian submarines, it seems highly likely that they would have picked up any implosion event. Especially in that area as Russian subs might traverse that area after coming through GIUK gap towards the east coast.

However, there have been no media reports citing naval sources discussing such sounds. This absence of information leads me to consider an alternative conclusion: the submersible may have encountered a different type of event, such as a loss of power, loss of control, or even a fire onboard. While the exact cause remains unknown, the lack of reported implosion sounds suggests that a different scenario for the loss of contact.

Just my opinion, I am not a SME on this, and I know other people on this board who know a lot more about this !

 

[Gumby]

I have been pondering events other than a leak and implosion. I recall, from some article or video, that there is a "dead man" switch with a timer that dumps the ballast after 14 hrs. So, absent a leak or a snag, that should have happened and the submersible should have become positively buoyant and risen to the surface. However, given some of their other odd design choices, I could envision that the timer circuit that may have been disabled if they lost electric power, and the system was not designed to "fail open" so the ballast would auto-dump upon that a loss of electric power. Which would mean no propulsion, no communication and no ballast auto-dump.

I also wonder if they had CO2 scrubbers. It's fine to say that they had flasks with 96 hours worth of oxygen, but you still have to do something about the buildup of CO2.

 

[Koolau]

I have been pondering events other than a leak and implosion. I recall, from some article or video, that there is a "dead man" switch with a timer that dumps the ballast after 14 hrs. So, absent a leak or a snag, that should have happened and the submersible should have become positively buoyant and risen to the surface. However, given some of their other odd design choices, I could envision that the timer circuit that may have been disabled if they lost electric power, and the system was not designed to "fail open" so the ballast would auto-dump upon that a loss of electric power. Which would mean no propulsion, no communication and no ballast auto-dump.

Some of the thing's we've discussed about the craft being short of fail-safes seem so elementary and easy to include during the building process. One would think that safety would be the key factor in all of the design and execution of a craft that goes to 13,000 feet of water.

 

[Sunset]

As a tourist in the Caribbean, we went on a tourist sub. It was fun and neat, and I had never been on any kind of sub.
We went down to ~100 feet.
It never occurred to me to ask about safety features.

 

[HawkOwl]

As a tourist in the Caribbean, we went on a tourist sub. It was fun and neat, and I had never been on any kind of sub.
We went down to ~100 feet.
It never occurred to me to ask about safety features.

Ditto. We assume safety when maybe we shouldn’t.

 

[COcheesehead]

Ditto. We assume safety when maybe we shouldn’t.

In the video posted from CBS, they show the host signing a release stating that the sub is not certified by anyone or anything and events could result in death.

 

[Gumby]

Some of the thing's we've discussed about the craft being short of fail-safes seem so elementary and easy to include during the building process. One would think that safety would be the key factor in all of the design and execution of a craft that goes to 13,000 feet of water.

If, as Go-NoGo's video claims, that CEO did hire brand new engineers fresh out of school, they may have learned about multiple redundant backups for critical systems as a design goal, but they can never have the "in the bones" knowledge that comes from being in a dangerous situation where you push the button or flip the switch and nothing happens, and your own life is at risk. In my submarining days, I went through engine room flooding from a seawater system that could not be isolated, fire and a total loss of all electrical power (and concurrent full reactor scram). Those experiences teach you things that no classroom ever could.

 

[erkevin]

Cynical me: you know darn well that the vultures in Hollywood are already laying the groundwork to purchase the rights to this story for a movie.

 

[COcheesehead]

Cynical me: you know darn well that the vultures in Hollywood are already laying the groundwork to purchase the rights to this story for a movie.

What was the last movie about a current real event? I think the genre has faded because of what we are seeing here. Almost live updates on a retirement site. LOL. News travels faster these days and with Twitter and instagram you even get crowd sourced photos.

 

[Koolau]

If, as Go-NoGo's video claims, that CEO did hire brand new engineers fresh out of school, they may have learned about multiple redundant backups for critical systems as a design goal, but they can never have the "in the bones" knowledge that comes from being in a dangerous situation where you push the button or flip the switch and nothing happens, and your own life is at risk. In my submarining days, I went through engine room flooding from a seawater system that could not be isolated, fire and a total loss of all electrical power (and concurrent full reactor scram). Those experiences teach you things that no classroom ever could.

Heh, heh, sorta like losing my landing light when I was landing at night on an unlit runway. Or losing an engine at 2000 feet. Your mind races and figures out what has to be done and then you do it - almost quicker than you can say it.

 

[Koolau]

As a tourist in the Caribbean, we went on a tourist sub. It was fun and neat, and I had never been on any kind of sub.
We went down to ~100 feet.
It never occurred to me to ask about safety features.

Several good things about Aquarius Subs:

They've been in use for many years.
As you point out, you go to 100 feet instead of 13,000 feet
Someone always knows EXATLY where they are
The subs are able to communicate with the surface mooring unit
There are Coast Guard ships and Navy ships near the Aquarius in Hawaii
There are large ships in the area of the Bahamas. Pulling Aquarius out should be relatively easy.
I don't know the Aquarius safety features, but assume they are numerous due to insurance requirements

ETA: I loved our Aquarius excursion

 

[Sojourner]

One would think that safety would be the key factor in all of the design and execution of a craft that goes to 13,000 feet of water.

Here is an article that describes how the CEO of OceansGate complained publicly about how passenger safety regulations were stifling the industry.

https://www.insider.com/titan-submarine-ceo-complained-about-obscenely-safe-regulations-2023-6

Quote from the article:

Describing the industry in a 2019 interview, Rush said that there had been no injuries in the field for decades, adding: "It's obscenely safe because they have all these regulations. But it also hasn't innovated or grown — because they have all these regulations."

 

[JoeWras]

What was the last movie about a current real event? I think the genre has faded because of what we are seeing here. Almost live updates on a retirement site. LOL. News travels faster these days and with Twitter and instagram you even get crowd sourced photos.

Last year. Movie about the cave rescue in Thailand. It was a pretty big production.

 

[JoeWras]

If, as Go-NoGo's video claims, that CEO did hire brand new engineers fresh out of school, they may have learned about multiple redundant backups for critical systems as a design goal, but they can never have the "in the bones" knowledge that comes from being in a dangerous situation where you push the button or flip the switch and nothing happens, and your own life is at risk. In my submarining days, I went through engine room flooding from a seawater system that could not be isolated, fire and a total loss of all electrical power (and concurrent full reactor scram). Those experiences teach you things that no classroom ever could.

This distresses me. Back in the day we used to do environmental chamber testing of temperatures and altitude for simple mundane electronics.

Much of this today is out the window on consumer electronics. No more major testing. I'm not sure new grads understand this kind of real world testing that used to be routine. I'm not sure they even learn about simple bathtub curve in school anymore.

Failures can occur in many ways. For example a capacitor experiencing pressure changes could fail and split its casing. A ten cent part can cause entire electronics failure. Honestly what I'm reading here is unbelievable. All electronics should have been at a high level of specification.

 

[COcheesehead]

Last year. Movie about the cave rescue in Thailand. It was a pretty big production.

True, I saw that one too.

 

[Sojourner]

Here's yet another quote by the CEO of OceanGate that makes this tragic incident seem all but inevitable:

In a November 2022 episode of CBS journalist David Pogue's "Unsung Science" podcast, Rush discussed the Titan sub's mechanics and build.

He said there was a "limit" to safety, telling Pogue: "You know, at some point, safety is just pure waste. I mean, if you just want to be safe, don't get out of bed, don't get in your car, don't do anything. At some point, you're going to take some risk, and it really is a risk-reward question."

[...]

The Titan sub was never checked to see if it was up to standard because of its "innovation," OceanGate said in 2019. The sub features a carbon fiber hull that had never been used on submersibles before, according to the "Unsung Science" podcast.

 

[frayne]

It is my understanding that implosion events are notorious for their tremendous energy and a very loud sound which has it's unique sound signature. Considering the capabilities of the US Navy's sonar assets, which are designed to detect and track Russian submarines, it seems highly likely that they would have picked up any implosion event. Especially in that area as Russian subs might traverse that area after coming through GIUK gap towards the east coast.

However, there have been no media reports citing naval sources discussing such sounds. This absence of information leads me to consider an alternative conclusion: the submersible may have encountered a different type of event, such as a loss of power, loss of control, or even a fire onboard. While the exact cause remains unknown, the lack of reported implosion sounds suggests that a different scenario for the loss of contact.

Just my opinion, I am not a SME on this, and I know other people on this board who know a lot more about this !

Or may the US Navy just doesn't want to reveal they have that ability for all the obvious reasons.