Single men of ER...chime in pls

[Chuckanut]

One 'problem' the OP may run into trying to find the right women is this:

Many women don't seem to know how to flirt or indicate that they are receptive to a man's continued interest and advances. Is this a casulty of some extreme form of Feminism? While in theory women can be the assertive one and ask men out, the reality is that 99% of the time it is still the man's job to make the first formal request even if it's just "Let's meet for a glass of wine and talk". A guy needs some encouragement, right?

I have noticed this repeatedly. Men show an interest in a woman. They ask about her work, they show an interest in her interests, they even listen to her talk on and on about her pets. But, the woman, other than answering the question, never responds with anything showing interest in the man. Of course, she may not be interested for a variety of reasons. But, IMHO, it is happening all to often to a lot of good men. ( GULP! Let the war between the sexes continue!)

Let's assume that a group of six to eight friends have met for happy hour. As the group chats with each other Joe takes an interest in Sandra.

Man: What is it about that Rascalian display at the art museum you enjoy?
Woman: Rascalian has has a nice way of using colors.
Man ( little later): Have you biked the new trail that opened up last week?
Woman: Yes, I went with friends.
Man (a little later): How many grandchildren do you have.
Woman: three.
Man ( a little later): This is great soup weather. Do you have a favorite recipe for soup?
Woman: Yes, I got it from my grandma.

Notice, that she never tries to engage the man as in:
"Yes, I got the recipe from my grandma. It's delicious and easy to make. Would you like a copy? What kind of soups do you make?

If she is not interested, she is doing a great job of indicating that, but, IMHO, this also happens to women who later complain to their girl friends - "Great guys like Joe never ask me out".

Or, maybe, I am just an insensitive Jughead

 

[FlaGator]

One 'problem' the OP may run into trying to find the right women is this:

Many women don't seem to know how to flirt or indicate that they are receptive to a man's continued interest and advances. Is this a casulty of some extreme form of Feminism? While in theory women can be the assertive one and ask men out, the reality is that 99% of the time it is still the man's job to make the first formal request even if it's just "Let's meet for a glass of wine and talk". A guy needs some encouragement, right?

I have noticed this repeatedly. Men show an interest in a woman. They ask about her work, they show an interest in her interests, they even listen to her talk on and on about her pets. But, the woman, other than answering the question, never responds with anything showing interest in the man. Of course, she may not be interested for a variety of reasons. But, IMHO, it is happening all to often to a lot of good men. ( GULP! Let the war between the sexes continue!)

Let's assume that a group of six to eight friends have met for happy hour. As the group chats with each other Joe takes an interest in Sandra.

Man: What is it about that Rascalian display at the art museum you enjoy?
Woman: Rascalian has has a nice way of using colors.
Man ( little later): Have you biked the new trail that opened up last week?
Woman: Yes, I went with friends.
Man (a little later): How many grandchildren do you have.
Woman: three.
Man ( a little later): This is great soup weather. Do you have a favorite recipe for soup?
Woman: Yes, I got it from my grandma.

Notice, that she never tries to engage the man as in:
"Yes, I got the recipe from my grandma. It's delicious and easy to make. Would you like a copy? What kind of soups do you make?

If she is not interested, she is doing a great job of indicating that, but, IMHO, this also happens to women who later complain to their girl friends - "Great guys like Joe never ask me out".

Or, maybe, I am just an insensitive Jughead

I have had similar experiences with women, and men, so I don't think you're insensitive. Many (most?) people are not good conversationalists (of course, I think I am -when I want to be)

In a few of my interactions with women, it was clear they weren't interested in me. In some with larger groups, they appeared to be more interested in establishing their presence with the other women. In a couple of them, they seemed to soaking up the attention with no thought as to how to keep it flowing. To be even-handed, the majority of my social interactions with men could be put in the same equivalent categories. Insecurity appears to be the norm.....

As disappointing as those experiences were, I consider those women to have selected themselves out, and I moved on. Maybe some foregone potential, but might also be emotional parasites that I'm better off without. Just playing the numbers and probabilities.....

Had one first date for lunch, though, that lasted for 3 hours, then became happy hour and a light dinner, with an invitation to meet again the following morning for breakfast. Still seeing that one

 

[athena53]

I think that behavior occurs in both sexes. I define "flirting" as stuff I never do- touching the guy when you address him, going overboard with the compliments, acting as if every word he says is fascinating- too artificial.

OTOH, I'm a firm believer in give- and-take conversation. One of the worst offenders I ever encountered was the husband of a couple DH and I met on a cruise. Every single thing we said about our travels, he brought the subject back to himself and HIS travels. Q: "DH and I loved Dubrovnik- have you been there?" A: "No, but when Poopsie and I were photographing penguins in Patagonia..." Incapable of an answer such as, "Yes, and we LOVED ___- did you see it?" Or "No, how was the climate?"

I always make sure the other person has an opportunity to talk and the conversation isn't just about me.

 

[Amethyst]

I find your story interesting. Now, keep in mind that I have been married and (gladly) out of dating for 31 years, so my views are of an earlier generation.

1) The rules were strict when I was growing up: A girl did not ask out a guy. Even if she desperately wanted to. No matter how much they had in common, she'd better let him make The First Move, or he'd get scared and run away.

2) When things got to the point that you have described, with all sorts of common threads and enthusiasm bubbling to the surface, I could be 100% sure he'd ask me out. Even if I didn't want him to, because I only saw him as a friend. This happened a lot, because I really liked men a lot, which could be perceived as "flirting" even though I wasn't. Oddly, though, I'm only physically attracted to a rare few. (But when it happens, it's the proverbial thunderbolt!)

O

Let's assume that a group of six to eight friends have met for happy hour. As the group chats with each other Joe takes an interest in Sandra.

Man: What is it about that Rascalian display at the art museum you enjoy?
Woman: Rascalian has has a nice way of using colors.
Man ( little later): Have you biked the new trail that opened up last week?
Woman: Yes, I went with friends.
Man (a little later): How many grandchildren do you have.
Woman: three.
Man ( a little later): This is great soup weather. Do you have a favorite recipe for soup?
Woman: Yes, I got it from my grandma.

Notice, that she never tries to engage the man as in:
"Yes, I got the recipe from my grandma. It's delicious and easy to make. Would you like a copy? What kind of soups do you make?

If she is not interested, she is doing a great job of indicating that, but, IMHO, this also happens to women who later complain to their girl friends - "Great guys like Joe never ask me out".

Or, maybe, I am just an insensitive Jughead

 

[Chuckanut]

Had one first date for lunch, though, that lasted for 3 hours, then became happy hour and a light dinner, with an invitation to meet again the following morning for breakfast. Still seeing that one

I met a very nice lady and we had two dates. Then she left for weeks on a pre-planned vacation. She took the time to send a few text messages complete with a few photos of where she has been. That, IMHO, is how a woman sends the message "I'm interested, please continue pursuing me".

 

[Amethyst]

That sentence had me in stitches

"No, but when Poopsie and I were photographing penguins in Patagonia..." .

 

[socca]

If she is not interested, she is doing a great job of indicating that...

I'm not seeing a problem here. Most women (and especially the exceptionally physically attractive ones) learn at an early age how to politely signal disinterest to a man. It's good that you're clearly receiving the signal and (I assume) responding appropriately. Most women are prepared to become impolite to get overly aggressive men to back off.

BTW: I once read a mildly interesting book by the co-founder of the online dating service OkCupid. He 'mined' his company's databases and noted that women with photos rated 'attractive' get massively more attention from men than women with photos rated 'unattractive'. If this translates well to the 'real world', then physically attractive women and homely women live in different universes when it comes to relations with the opposite sex.

I have to continually remind myself that the most important things about a woman are the things you can't see. It's difficult to remember this when perky young women with perfect bodies are bouncing around in tights at my gym.

 

[SecondCor521]

I watched a Youtube video from "wingwoman" or some such that explained this in a way that seemed to make sense to me:

If a woman is interested in you, she will give you what she considers "extras" - maybe laughing at your jokes, extended eye contact, touching your hand or shoulder or knee, whatever. If a woman is explicitly not interested in you and wants to send that signal, she will give you the bare minimum - terse answers, closed body language, etc. In between there is some average level of interaction, call it "baseline".

The thing is, each woman's baseline is different. Some women are very physical and friendly and sociable with the guys in their life, and some are very reserved/shy/restrained/whatever. So what this Youtube video said a guy needs to do is figure out a woman's baseline and then see how her treatment of him compares relative to her baseline.

As a guy, I sometimes wish women would be more blunt and say "I like you" or "I see no future between us" or "I'm not sure yet, let me get to know you better" but after conversations with many women this seems not to be their MO very often. They prefer to be indirect and expect us men to read the tea leaves and figure it out. Sometimes I enjoy the ambiguity but more often than not I don't because it drains my emotional energy trying to decipher these things.

 

[Fedup]

@chuck, from your post, it sounds like she is not interested. That's not the same as she doesn't know or want to flirt with you.

 

[athena53]

d

The thing is, each woman's baseline is different. Some women are very physical and friendly and sociable with the guys in their life, and some are very reserved/shy/restrained/whatever. So what this Youtube video said a guy needs to do is figure out a woman's baseline and then see how her treatment of him compares relative to her baseline.

So true. I had a friend in college who had a naturally bubbly personality and whose baseline was super-friendly even when she wasn't crazy about the guy. They were all drawn to her and I'm sure a few wondered why she never actually wanted to go out with them. She could give a guy the impression that she thought he was the most interesting or funniest person in the world and I really don't think she was deliberately being deceptive. That was just the way she was.

 

[Amethyst]

Trust me, it never ends well for the woman to be blunt about anything, unless an actual attack is occurring. Behind the indirectness is caution, if not (in some cases) outright fear.

I

As a guy, I sometimes wish women would be more blunt and say .... "I see no future between us" ....but after conversations with many women this seems not to be their MO very often. .

 

[Aerides]

Trust me, it never ends well for the woman to be blunt about anything, unless an actual attack is occurring. Behind the indirectness is caution, if not (in some cases) outright fear.

Like the saying goes:
Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them.

On the earlier page where W2R describes her arrangement with Frank, I think of the Rita Rudner line: "I want a man in my life, but not in my house."

 

[Amethyst]

Mostly afraid they will call us stuck-up, b#%@$@s, etc. But yeah, some can get really nasty. I have seen it occur.

Frustrating and infuriating, to the good and kindly men who are the majority.

Like the saying goes:
Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them.

"

 

[W2R]

Is there a ready term you use for this kind of arrangement that women would generally readily understand? It sounds like possibly the kind of arrangement I want, and if there were a term for it that would be helpful.

Sorry I took so long to answer. Honestly I don't know of any, other than eternally going steady.

I spent most of our first date with Frank describing what I wanted. I had done that before with other men from the online dating site, and many did not want a relationship that could never lead to marriage. On the other hand, Frank was utterly entranced by the idea (due to past bad experiences), and we talked about it and refined it. I went on and on about how I felt that emotional commitment and financial obligation were different concepts, in my opinion, giving examples. I said that I wanted no limitations in emotional commitment if we felt such commitment growing, and he liked that idea as well.

 

[MuirWannabe]

Thank God I'm happily married for 31 years. In the unlikely or unfortunate event that should ever change I don't know what I'd do. But these posts would be a nightmare of eclectic advice that would surely discourage me. It's obviously a complicated dating world out there even for us older folks.

 

[jollystomper]

I find your story interesting. Now, keep in mind that I have been married and (gladly) out of dating for 31 years, so my views are of an earlier generation.

1) The rules were strict when I was growing up: A girl did not ask out a guy. Even if she desperately wanted to. No matter how much they had in common, she'd better let him make The First Move, or he'd get scared and run away.

2) When things got to the point that you have described, with all sorts of common threads and enthusiasm bubbling to the surface, I could be 100% sure he'd ask me out. Even if I didn't want him to, because I only saw him as a friend. This happened a lot, because I really liked men a lot, which could be perceived as "flirting" even though I wasn't. Oddly, though, I'm only physically attracted to a rare few. (But when it happens, it's the proverbial thunderbolt!)

I did not see too much of this during my college years in the late 70s. Perhaps because it was an Ivy League college, and (for better or worse) the women at the school, and more so those who lived in the town or attended other nearby colleges, thought the men there were a "catch". So asking a man out occurred regularly - if one particular woman had not asked me out, she might not have become my DW.

 

[Fedup]

Thank God I'm happily married for 31 years. In the unlikely or unfortunate event that should ever change I don't know what I'd do. But these posts would be a nightmare of eclectic advice that would surely discourage me. It's obviously a complicated dating world out there even for us older folks.

I'm thinking of getting a large dog.

 

[W2R]

On the earlier page where W2R describes her arrangement with Frank, I think of the Rita Rudner line: "I want a man in my life, but not in my house."

Works for us. I love not having to pick up after anyone.

Frank likes it too; he's a ham radio enthusiast, and his entire house is his "ham shack". Only a ham would understand.

Amethyst, I'm of that generation too. The only time I ever asked a man out was to the "Sadie Hawkins Day" dance in high school, where that was expected. I thought it was awful but my friends pushed me into it.

 

[Fedup]

I did not see too much of this during my college years in the late 70s. Perhaps because it was an Ivy League college, and (for better or worse) the women at the school, and more so those who lived in the town or attended other nearby colleges, thought the men there were a "catch". So asking a man out occurred regularly - if one particular woman had not asked me out, she might not have become my DW.

I don't come from that generation, but the Ivy League degree didn't work for me. I used to live near the young doctors, they were considered a "catch" too. I thought they wouldn't be having a lot of free time, so I rejected a few. Same with the young men with not just one, but two Ivy League degrees to their name. They were no "catch" because they smoked and I don't like smokers. So in short, the Ivy League degree was not catchy enough, not for me.

 

[FlaGator]

Thank God I'm happily married for 31 years. In the unlikely or unfortunate event that should ever change I don't know what I'd do. But these posts would be a nightmare of eclectic advice that would surely discourage me. It's obviously a complicated dating world out there even for us older folks.

Glad that you are, and I encourage you to make every effort to stay that way

Hope to join you in that state again, and if the timing is right and the longevity gods are with me, could get another 30 year run

 

[Aerides]

Mostly afraid they will call us stuck-up, b#%@$@s, etc. But yeah, some can get really nasty. I have seen it occur.

Frustrating and infuriating, to the good and kindly men who are the majority.

I met DH with Match.com in its early days. I don't think they were even charging? This is 2003-ish. He was my 7th online match up.

The prior 6? Mostly, within 30 seconds to 5 mins, clearly not someone I want in my life. Sadly, most, about 20% less fetching than their photo, but worse, about 50% less charming than their profile. Ladies, you know the type, ask you a question then cut you off before you've finished to start talking about themselves for the rest of the date. 1 didn't have a green card... another mentioned his multiple roommates...I ended each cordially then sent the "it's not you it's me" text or email when they called me for a 2nd date (since I never answered the calls lol). Most I never heard from after the reject note, but yeah one of them sent a response absolutely viciously RIPPING me apart for rejecting him. Thank goodness I didn't let on in person ...

Once in my early 30's I did speed dating - the worst! It was at a martini bar. They gave us all drinks to mill around for an hour, then sat down for our 2nd drink (bad idea) at a long table. The women all stayed in place on one side, the men kept moving one chair down for 5 minute chats... so you'd hear the guy using the same banter on the one before you and after. By the time the last guy reached me I was well over this and well into my 2nd martini. He said he was divorced with 5 young kids. I about fell over laughing. He wasn't kidding. The remaining 4 minutes were very awkward.

And yeah I'm an introvert. Each of these events... I would rather have eaten nails. But DH made it all worth it at the end.

 

[nash031]

Such an interesting thread! Now, I'm not single, and young by this threads standards, but chiming in:

- It was always more important to me to have a companion for life than to be able to do whatever I wanted 24/7. So, I was a serial dater from about 19 until 31. I think the longest I was single was a year during that time. Lots of mistakes. I made some wrecking relationships, I made some picking relationships. I got lucky with my wife.

- I met people every way possible - work, college parties, social groups, the internet, school, sports. I met my wife through Match. She was one of maybe seven girls I dated, but was the only one who made it past a third date, and not for the reason you guys might be thinking! [emoji13]

- I had filters when I met DW (I was 31): non-smoker, college degree, single (not divorced or widowed), "average" shape or "better", taller than 5'4". I saw her profile once, she was 5'3", but I checked her out. She had a picture with her brothers (I didn't know that) which in retrospect was a turnoff for me because I didn't know if she had a bunch of dudes she hung around with or what. She contacted me because she saw that we went to the same University (she didn't have that on her profile) and we went back and forth over email for a week before meeting. We met at a sports bar watching our college team lose badly as we had eggs and beer (game was 9 am on the west coast).

I'll always remember when she walked in. I got butterflies from her cute little tank top with our alma mater's logo on it. I knew immediately that I was in for it.

After our date, she agreed to come to a friend's party with me that night. Then after she worked on Sunday, she came by yet another sports bar and met me for a snack. We had our first dinner date that week too.

By the next weekend, she had decided she only wanted to date me. Turned out she was dating another guy from match, and had gone out with him that first Saturday.... three dates in one day! - and again that week.

We were engaged about eighteen months after we met. Now married nearly six years our daughter is almost nine months old.

There are good ones out there, guys!

- If I had to do it again: no height or divorced/widowed filter... I'm older now so why would I limit the field like that? It was silly. I would be more direct about what I was looking for, but also a bit less picky about things like pictures. I almost missed out on my wife because of it!

I don't think internet dating is a panacea, but when you're busy and new to an area, it's a short cut. Definitely do the coffee/lunch (or breakfast and football!) first date.

Oh, and I wholly disagree about baseball caps for women or men over 30! [emoji1]

 

[Hermit]

Thank God I'm happily married for 31 years. In the unlikely or unfortunate event that should ever change I don't know what I'd do. But these posts would be a nightmare of eclectic advice that would surely discourage me. It's obviously a complicated dating world out there even for us older folks.

Glad that you are, and I encourage you to make every effort to stay that way

Hope to join you in that state again, and if the timing is right and the longevity gods are with me, could get another 30 year run

Very happily married for 29 years and then one day DW was no longer there (she died in an accident). It took me until I was 30 to find the right lady. Before I could think about another relationship I would have to get to a point where I could feel confident that I would not constantly be comparing another to the late DW. I'm not there yet and its been 8 years...

I just can't see me doing the "dating game". It doesn't sound like very much fun to me. Meeting at a social function or something along those lines would be the only way for a relationship to get started for me. There have been women who have shown interest in me, but it hasn't been right for me yet.

 

[FlaGator]

Such an interesting thread......

It has, and I've been more active on it than usual.

Reading all the comments has been good fodder for the ongoing introspection. Participation by women with such a wide range of relationship experience has been very helpful for me - almost as good as my sister speaking up . Thank you, ladies.

 

[FlaGator]

Very happily married for 29 years and then one day DW was no longer there (she died in an accident). It took me until I was 30 to find the right lady. Before I could think about another relationship I would have to get to a point where I could feel confident that I would not constantly be comparing another to the late DW. I'm not there yet and its been 8 years...

I just can't see me doing the "dating game". It doesn't sound like very much fun to me. Meeting at a social function or something along those lines would be the only way for a relationship to get started for me. There have been women who have shown interest in me, but it hasn't been right for me yet.

I hear you, had similar thoughts and experience.

For me, the comparison is always there, just a matter of how close it is to the surface. Smile every time I think about her in a tight denim dress

I try to remember that the life I shared with her is different than the one I'll have going forward, or that we would have now - no longer building a career, life or assets, raising young kids (they're teens now) and dealing with the associated social dynamics. Very grateful for what we shared and try to stay hopeful about the life ahead.

I realized after my wife died that I have always loved having women in my life - being around them, working with/for them, socializing with them, sharing a life together. My brothers are the same way, so I've decided to blame my mother for that .

Once I understood that, it was easier to think about what kind of woman and relationship made sense for me. I'm more clear on that now than a few years ago (wife died early 2014), but still not certain enough to make a long term commitment to anyone. One of my brothers waited 8 years from the death of his wife before re-marrying. Said he just wasn't ready to open himself up before then.

Free advice is worth what you paid, so here is some from my experience, deal with it as you see fit:
1. Be thankful for what you shared with her
2. Understand it was a set of circumstances that you'll never see again
3. As best you can, separate what you want in the future from what you had in the past.
4. Don't apologize if you're never willing to make the emotional effort and commitment to share your life with someone. You know the downside like few do.

Best of luck to you!