Stupid to Plan a Library?

[ziggy29]

If they are planning a traditional "library" as in just a lot of books, yeah, that's like building a system of roads designed for horse and buggy.

But there's no real reason a library has to be that in this day and age. And it's easy to forget sometimes, but not everyone has a computer and broadband Internet access at home.

 

[TromboneAl]

How long has the Internet been hammering down newspapers? How much longer will it be until the New York Times and the WSJ are out of the newsprint business?

Here's an article from March, 2009, predicting closures:

The 10 Major Newspapers That Will Either Fold or Go Digital Next - TIME

Over the past few weeks, the U.S. newspaper industry has entered a new period of decline. The parent of the papers in Philadelphia declared bankruptcy, as did the Journal Register chain. The Rocky Mountain News closed, and the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, owned by Hearst, will almost certainly close or only publish online. Hearst has said it will also close the San Francisco Chronicle if it cannot make massive cuts. The most recent rumor is that the company will lay off half the editorial staff. Still, that action may not be enough to make the property profitable.

Expected to close (or go online-only):
​

1. The Philadelphia Daily News.

2. The Minneapolis Star Tribune
3. The Miami Herald,
4. The Detroit News

5. The Boston Globe
6. The San Francisco Chronicle.
7. The Chicago Sun-Times
8. The New York Daily News
9. The Fort Worth Star-Telegram

10. The Cleveland Plain Dealer

 

[Nords]

Here's an article from March, 2009, predicting closures:

I don't know how much of that has come to pass in the last two years, but I bet it'd be more accurately measured by a decade or two.

I have to admit that I like the idea of a Starbucks tucked into the corner of our local library, with their rent for the space going to support library operations & new inventory.

 

[Bestwifeever]

Here's an article from March, 2009, predicting closures:

The 10 Major Newspapers That Will Either Fold or Go Digital Next - TIME

There's also this from 8/29/09: Fortune's Stanley Bing: Dead Media? Not So Fast, Bub

Likewise, has it ever occurred to you that a lot of what you read about the death of newspapers is written by people who were recently fired from their jobs at newspapers? Does this seem fair to you?

(and in the comments section there, several astutely point out that the article was written for an Internet publication, not a print publication, so his point would be ....?).

 

[haha]

We had another similar thread maybe 6 months ago. I agree with Al, many nice things about a library, but none of them are exclusive to libraries. Libraries require librarians, they are not cheap, and they carry the typical government worker long tail of municipal obigations.

My local branch like many in Seattle has a nice new building, heavy staffing, lots of computers and not very many books. I go there mainly to pick up books sent from the central library, or other local branch, and occasionally to pick through DVDs for rent.

We don't need local libraries at all, they are a waste of money and often fairly unpleasant places to be. Before libraries stocked lots of taxpayer supported DVDs and computer services, local shops did this, remember internet cafés and local video stores? Speakeasy on 2nd Avenue in Seattle was a great example, computers for rent, nice ambiance, quality coffee, and the only bums there at least had enough money to rent a computer.

Keep the central library for repository functions, newspapers and magazines and book lending. Many of the actual physical books can be kept off sight in a much cheaper warehouse district. There will essentially be one book storage site for circulating books, and one pick-up site, the central library. With decent logistics (always questionable for a government run entity) there coujld even be a drive through for car people.

And of course many new books will be ebooks. All the useful e-funcitons that we can now access from home will continue, and actually might even be increased.

Money saved could be spent on a much more useful and general purpose function, like better and more rational bus service.

Obviously none of this applies to great national libraries like the Sterling at Yale, Widener at Harvard, Bonton Public Library, NYC Library or the Library of Congress

Ha

 

[Midpack]

I think anything that gets a kid's nose in a book has value.

I agree, but the kids in our libraries are either there to research schoolwork or surf the net (mostly games and social media). There are few if any kids who are recreational readers from what I can tell.

 

[Nords]

There are few if any kids who are recreational readers from what I can tell.

They check out the vampire & wizard books to read at home, because while they're at the library they don't want to miss out on socializing with their friends...

Our daughter (and her friends) were gargantuan recreational readers... when they were at home "spending time with family" or supposedly doing chores, cleaning their rooms, doing homework, etc.

 

[donheff]

Our daughter (and her friends) were gargantuan recreational readers... when they were at home "spending time with family" or supposedly doing chores, cleaning their rooms, doing homework, etc.

My daughter is 25 and is better read than me. Son is 37 and reads tons. I expect books will continue to be a major outlet for the next generation.

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

Why not a community center with a small library in it?

 

[FIREngineer]

If they are planning a traditional "library" as in just a lot of books, yeah, that's like building a system of roads designed for horse and buggy.

But there's no real reason a library has to be that in this day and age.

This discussion reminds me of a recent post by Seth Godin on the future of the library (Seth's Blog: The future of the library). Rather than argue that libraries are obsolete, he envisions a change in the way we run libraries. He argues that the libraries of the future will not be so much where the books are, but where the librarians are. These "new" librarians will be well versed in helping people find information in the new web-based world. The library would still have some elements of a community center as TAl mentioned, with meeting rooms and such, but would be more of a "local nerve center for information." Overall, an interesting read, and I would be for such a system in my area.

 

[haha]

This discussion reminds me of a recent post by Seth Godin on the future of the library (Seth's Blog: The future of the library). Rather than argue that libraries are obsolete, he envisions a change in the way we run libraries. He argues that the libraries of the future will not be so much where the books are, but where the librarians are. These "new" librarians will be well versed in helping people find information in the new web-based world. The library would still have some elements of a community center as TAl mentioned, with meeting rooms and such, but would be more of a "local nerve center for information." Overall, an interesting read, and I would be for such a system in my area.

Except that at best one of ten librarians know enough to be helpful.

A cheaper and more effective way would be an internet marketplace where you ask questions, and people would bid on answering. The responders can be rated. There are many possible payment schemes.

The sooner we get away from hiring expensive and marginally useful public workers the better off we will be. That is, unless we ourselves are expensive and marginally useful workers.

Ha

 

[freebird5825]

East Nowhere is too small to have a library. The next nearest town has a modest sized library building that dates back to the 1930s. It has been modernized as far as free Internet access goes. I have donated a fair number of hardcover books to it over the years.
Every property owner is assessed a small library fee in the annual school tax bill. I have no problem with that if it gives kids and adults someplace to be.

 

[TromboneAl]

As a reminder,

A. I'm not saying libraries are obsolete now, I'm saying they may be obsolete in 5 years, and will definitely be obsolete in 10 years.

B. This is what I mean by "library":

li·brar·y/ˈlīˌbrerē/Noun

1. A building or room containing collections of books, periodicals, and sometimes films and recorded music for people to read, borrow, or refer to.
2. A collection of books and periodicals held in such a building or room. More »
Wikipedia - Dictionary.com - Answers.com - Merriam-Webster


C. Parallels to building a library that will not open for five years:
1. Planning a photo processing plant in 2006
(Last Kodachrome Developer Stops Developing)
2. Planning a video rental store in 2007
(The last movie rental stores left standing - Mar. 6, 2009)
3. Investing in a card catalog in 1978(?)
4. Planning a typewriter factory in 1994

 

[Nords]

B. This is what I mean by "library":

Al, are you really trying to (1) guide a thread by (2) getting the board's posters to agree (3) on a common definition for a concept?

 

[TromboneAl]

Al, are you really trying to (1) guide a thread by (2) getting the board's posters to agree (3) on a common definition for a concept?

I guess I got carries away.

 

[Dreamer]

I vote to keep libraries also. Our family was very poor when I was a young child. I do not remember books being in our home at that time. I remember going to the library for the first time and I was absolutely amazed that they were going to allow me to take their book home with me. I have only experienced that feeling of amazement very few times in my life (I wish that I was the type of person who got excited more often) and I have a tendency to remember those feelings to this day. There are still many poor families in the US and many of them live in my state, WV. There are a few homeless people, who hang around the downtown library, and I always try to keep an eye on what they are doing when I am there. I know that many homeless do have mental or emotional problems. I wish they did not hang out there all day, but I am sure if I were homeless, I would do the same thing. Some days I will drive to a smaller library on the outskirts of town, but really prefer the downtown library. You have to pay to park at the downtown library, cross a busy street, pay to reserve a book or check out a video and to make copies. I still enjoy going to the library and do not mind paying taxes to support it. My DD used it a lot for books and still reads a lot to this day.

 

[Moemg]

Dreamer's post really brought back memories to me . We were middle class but no way could we have afforded all the books I brought home from the library .

 

[FreeAtLast]

Probably called a library but should probably be a multi functional building.

Cafatornasium - is what they called the building in my daughter's elementary school which served as a Cafeteria, Auditorium and Gymnasium.

 

[SteveL]

At present, E-readers are a rip-off compared to owning the paper. When you buy an ebook from Amazon, you don't own it. You can't give it to a friend, you can't loan it, all you bought was a license to read it on your Kindle. And, Amazon sells a lot of these for the same price as the paper.
This isn't saying that these devices don't have attractions for some users.
Books are heavy and a drawback for travelers. They carry an energy burden much heavier than electronics.
However, I can't see myself sitting with my grandson on my lap trying to use a kindle to look at any one of many children's books.

 

[TromboneAl]

However, I can't see myself sitting with my grandson on my lap trying to use a kindle to look at any one of many children's books.

I have no trouble imagining that.

 

[FUEGO]

We use our library quite extensively for the purposes defined by T-Al. Book access and retrieval. I have made inquiries with the librarians on how to best access certain information. I also have asked about book recommendations, other books in a series or by similar authors, etc. We use the reading room at the library to let the kids pick some books and preview to make sure the content is appropriate for their reading level. I occasionally browse the shelves.

But I would not be too heartbroken if the library was replaced by an automated kiosk that takes up 1/20th the square footage. If I could swipe my library card and have the books I reserved yesterday drop into a bin for pickup, I would be ok with never having to interact with a human. I would make do. As it is now, I usually reserve books online and have them shipped to my local library for pick up. Quite frequently I use our interlibrary loan service (at no cost to me) where they borrow books from other libraries. I use amazon to find out about books I may want to read.

For kids books, I would miss the library. It is so easy to browse and grab 10-20 books for my 4 and 6 year olds. Let them read em for a couple weeks, then return them all and get a whole new collection.

I wouldn't like to hand my 4 and 6 year olds a digital e-reader because it would get broken or smashed quickly. And it can't be as easy to access and change books as hard copy books.

I don't see libraries going away. Some predicted the demise of brick and mortar retail establishments with the advent of online shopping. At least locally, I can't tell that construction of shopping centers has decreased significantly (other than the dip the last few years due to that mini-Great Depression).

I imagine libraries will continue the shift from being solely repositories of books to being places to access information (hard copy or digital). Books are simple. No barrier to entry, zero boot up time, no batteries, very durable, drop resistant, water resistant, easily viewed particularly in the brightest sunlight. And you have a whole cohort of folks that have been accessing the printed word via paper for years or decades that probably won't change their ways completely any time soon.

 

[donheff]

At present, E-readers are a rip-off compared to owning the paper. When you buy an ebook from Amazon, you don't own it. You can't give it to a friend, you can't loan it, all you bought was a license to read it on your Kindle. And, Amazon sells a lot of these for the same price as the paper.

This irritates me. I have physical books that are decades old. With eBooks the distributors/publishers want to treat you as licensees knowing you will change platform or otherwise loose track of the license and the product. It is fairly easy to strip the DRM from them so you can save readable copies on backup, change the format to read on a device of your choice, give it to a friend, etc. But I assume that violates the law and is not a viable long term solution. I hope the cost for major releases comes down but I am not optimistic.

Edit: I wish they would post used eBooks for sale like Amazon does with used physical books (i.e. easily transfer the license). That would be a valuable market.

 

[Bestwifeever]

I have no trouble imagining that.

Learning how to turn pages helps develop fine motor skills and hand-eye coordination--but the next generation will need less of those I guess (and they won't have to physically get up off the couch to go to a library).

 

[Nords]

In the middle of this debate, a local library has been told that its rock walls don't look right for their (relatively wealthy) neighborhood. $300K to fix this "problem".

StarAdvertiser.com - Mobile Edition

I don't know what classes or studying go into a "Masters of Library Science", but I've been mystified by the alleged "user interfaces" of many periodical and database systems. I suspect the Dewey Decimal System may not be considered a hot topic anymore.

Learning how to turn pages helps develop fine motor skills and hand-eye coordination--

Multi-finger swipes on an Apple touchpad/touchscreen certainly require more of those skills than I've developed.

 

[Bestwifeever]

In the middle of this debate, a local library has been told that its rock walls don't look right for their (relatively wealthy) neighborhood. $300K to fix this "problem".

StarAdvertiser.com - Mobile Edition

I don't know what classes or studying go into a "Masters of Library Science", but I've been mystified by the alleged "user interfaces" of many periodical and database systems. I suspect the Dewey Decimal System may not be considered a hot topic anymore.


Multi-finger swipes on an Apple touchpad/touchscreen certainly require more of those skills than I've developed.

Yeah, depth perception development in turning pages is so old-fashioned--and those toddlers are going to have a lot more fun with a fingerpainting app, too--they don't have to deal with the horror of texture and messiness of real paint .

Sounds like someone screwed up that library's design, less for appearance and more for safety and maintenance from the article:

More important than the look of the building, the protruding stone veneer on the building’s interior could pose safety concerns, DAGS and library officials agreed, and on the exterior it would create “serious maintenance challenges,” such as requiring more frequent cleaning and making it more expensive to paint the building.