tankless water heater, anyone ?

[Ibid]

I'm lucky in that the washer is in the garage, and the garage floor slopes down for this reason.

I thought that too until the water heater went out. Half the water ran out the garage and the other half came into the house. Not what you want to see when pulling into the driveway after a two week vacation. The pet sitter had been at the house about one hour earlier and didn't notice any water in the driveway. Nasty water stained the carpet brown from the rust. Fortunately it was only in one room.

Now we turn the water heater off (and the washer water) for vacations. Lesson learned the hard way.

 

[Nords]

Funny thing...I saw a few articles regarding periodically cleaning the interior of your HWH with a bleach solution, especially if you keep the HW temps low.
I can report having investigated my old one and the stuff growing inside, along with the stuff I cleaned out of the supply lines was very displeasing looking. But then again, i've seen the inside of municipal water pipes and those arent that attractive either.

The nastiest, scariest tanks on a submarine aren't the ones that hold the toilet sewage or collect the shower drains... they're the potable water tanks. I still haven't figured out what kind of slimy grass could grow under those conditions, but that's what it looks like.

However it was considered acceptable for human consumption. The water tanks were treated with bromine (chlorine is a forbidden contaminant aboard a submarine) and never caused a problem. So I'm not sure that household water tanks need the bleach treatement-- and I wonder what bleach would do to an anode rod?

The anode rod replacement guidelines recommend draining the water heater just so that the new rod (which would probably have more volume than the consumed old rod) doesn't displace a bunch of water as it's inserted and spill it onto the tank's insulation. Leaving the tank as full as practicable provides a nice mass to hold the tank in place while you beat on it delicately extract the anode.

And yes, I don't know how the plumbing profession survived before Teflon tape. All our new water heaters have their anodes checked & rethreaded with Teflon tape before they're put in service. Why oh why doesn't the public school system teach this with financial literacy and physical education?!?

What scares me the most is you KNOW when you put it in.... I did it 'some time last year'...

Haven't you been paying attention to the financial software threads?!? I'm a nuclear engineer with over 100,000 transactions stored on nearly 15 years of Quicken records. I have a reputation to uphold-- I'm at the point now where my spouse is either offended or teases me if I can't explain when/how much we've spent on something.

And don't you know that you are supposed to turn off your water to your washer after each use

Yeah, it's on the list. I come from a culture where operating a cheap isolation valve means it'll leak/break long before the supply hoses will suffer. I like the little ball valves with a flip lever on the supply manifold, but we haven't tackled that honey-do yet.

We have a plastic tray under our washing machine with a drain line into the lower part of the garage. So if a hose breaks close enough to the machine then it'll hopefully drain out the front instead of into our kid's room again.

I determined that our dishwasher is hard-piped to our kitchen sink supply line, so I've stopped worrying about that one. But I never thought of toilet hoses! From now on we'll be shutting off the house water before we go on vacation.

BTW... have you had your line to your ice maker freeze up?? The space between the outside and the inside?? I did... every so often I heard this spraying noise... found the water running from behind the refrig... and all down the wall was wet... yuck..

I'm gonna have to add this problem to my "Lucky You Live Hawaii" list!

 

[F M All]

The water tanks were treated with bromine

Are you sure that wasn't bromide?

 

[Texas Proud]

Nords...

Living in Hawaii will not protect you from the ice line freezing.... the hose inserts into the back of the fridge... but only a short distance... then there is an internal line to the ice tray... this internal line froze solid. The next time the tray 'asked' for water... well, you can guess the rest...

I had to use a hanger to beat the crap out of remove the ice blockage.. then pour some hot water down the tube...

It has happened twice in 25 years...

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I like the little ball valves with a flip lever on the supply manifold, but we haven't tackled that honey-do yet.

I can save you the honey...thats the valve my dad had that started leaking like a sieve after a few years of flipping.

Another thing I discovered while I was shopping our new Lowes Grand Opening, which was disappointing as an employee earlier in the week said they'd have free hot dogs and 10% off everything in the store yet neither materialized. They sell little "water hammer arrestors" that you can screw onto the laundry supply valves and then connect your washing machine hoses to those. A water hammer arrestor is usually built into a quality plumbing job and either consists of a vertical capped pipe that is left filled with air or capped with a spring or air loaded plunger. These prevent the 'pipe banging' or 'water hammer' you get when a water valve is abruptly opened or closed, or left open a very small amount. Slight to moderate water hammer over a period of years will likely be the cause of many of your long term plumbing leaks. Unfortunately in the process of slapping together tract homes using labor hired that morning often results in no hammer arrestor being installed on many home plumbing systems. Like mine. I was about to make a pair and solder them into the main pipes up in the attic...but something easier than that would be nice.

Ten bucks each, one each for hot and cold, 2 minute installation between the washer valves and hoses. Niiiice. And I can take them with me when I move!

 

[scrinch]

Aside from that a quality braided stainless steel hose is the good stuff...far more burst proof than the plain rubber hoses they come with.

What's the advantage of a braided steel hose on a washing machine? All the steel braided lines I've ever seen are just rubber hose with braiding on the outside. The braiding would help prevent kinking or chafing of the line, but wouldn't prevent cracking, which is likely the primary failure mode.

BTW, I've just bought 3/4" brass ball valves and y-strainers for my washer water inlets. I'm sick and tired of replacing the leaky faucets and cleaning the little rubber gasket strainers that take a beating from our gritty well water.

 

[Nords]

Living in Hawaii will not protect you from the ice line freezing.... the hose inserts into the back of the fridge... but only a short distance... then there is an internal line to the ice tray... this internal line froze solid. The next time the tray 'asked' for water... well, you can guess the rest...

Phew, what a relief, I thought you were talking about bad thermal insulation in the wall between the water pipe and the room...

Our current fridge doesn't even have an icemaker. We're debating whether to put up with the hassle of installing one; the water line coming out of the wall is looking pretty gnarly.

What's the advantage of a braided steel hose on a washing machine? All the steel braided lines I've ever seen are just rubber hose with braiding on the outside. The braiding would help prevent kinking or chafing of the line, but wouldn't prevent cracking, which is likely the primary failure mode.

Just to buttress the rubber's weak spots from kinking, chafing, water hammer, rodents, cold weather, or other problems. You're absolutely right about the cracking, which is why even steel hoses should be replaced after 10 years.

I need to look into T-Al's Intelliflow shutoff valve.

BTW, I've just bought 3/4" brass ball valves and y-strainers for my washer water inlets. I'm sick and tired of replacing the leaky faucets and cleaning the little rubber gasket strainers that take a beating from our gritty well water.

Have you considered a particulate filter or an ion-exchange resin water conditioner on your house's water-supply line? They're about $500 bucks (and a $5 bag of salt every couple months) but they'll filter out the crap before it gets to the rest of the house & appliances. They also cut the sink & toilet cleaning (water stains, mineral rings) way back.

 

[Ibid]

..."water hammer arrestors" that you can screw onto the laundry supply valves and then connect your washing machine hoses to those. A water hammer arrestor is usually built into a quality plumbing job and either consists of a vertical capped pipe that is left filled with air or capped with a spring or air loaded plunger. These prevent the 'pipe banging' or 'water hammer' you get when a water valve is abruptly opened or closed, or left open a very small amount.
...
Ten bucks each, one each for hot and cold, 2 minute installation between the washer valves and hoses. Niiiice. And I can take them with me when I move!

I had given up looking for those - you wouldn't happen to know the brand name/manufacturer?

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

http://www.siouxchief.com/B_Products_Prods.cfm?ID=35

Sioux Chief "mini rester". Were in the water heater hookup area at home depot and near the washing machine hose hookup area at my lowes.

http://www.siouxchief.com/PDF/MiniResterbrochure04.PDF

I've been told that these spring loaded variety do 'wear out' after a while, particularly if you have a lot of valves opening and closing abruptly and regular hammer problems. Best thing to do if you have a real problem with this (aside from replacing the valves causing the problems) is to pick a high spot in the attic where your pipes run, cut into the hot and cold and solder in a tee facing up, then solder in 18" of pipe and cap it. The air trapped in that pipe will become a fully effective hammer arrestor. Occasionally the pipe may become waterlogged, in which case draining the system fully restores the arrestor function.

But these sure are a lot easier to do...

 

[Ibid]

Many thanks for the response. This means I get to cross something off the honey-do list

I got one (same brand, Sioux Chief) around 10 years back for the cold water side of the washer. When I motivated to put one on the hot water side, they were nowhere to be found.

 

[jazz4cash]

What's the advantage of a braided steel hose on a washing machine? All the steel braided lines I've ever seen are just rubber hose with braiding on the outside.

Sounds cosmetic to me. Braided steel hoses are common for heavy-duty vehicles for abrasion resistance as you stated, but many of these lines which are designed for 300'F/350PSI have no external braiding at all.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Braiding stops a bulge and helps reduce torsional stress on the hose.

 

[REWahoo]

Braiding stops a bulge and helps reduce torsional stress on the hose.

Yup. It serves the same purpose as a Trojan.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

What the hell does the university of southern california's football team have to do with this?

 

[REWahoo]

What the hell does the university of southern california's football team have to do with this?

They wear hats?

 

[scrinch]

Have you considered a particulate filter or an ion-exchange resin water conditioner on your house's water-supply line? They're about $500 bucks (and a $5 bag of salt every couple months) but they'll filter out the crap before it gets to the rest of the house & appliances. They also cut the sink & toilet cleaning (water stains, mineral rings) way back.

We have an ion exchange water conditioner followed by a similar iron filter (oxidizes, precipitates, and filters out Fe). It may be the beads from this filter that end up clogging the washing machine. I suppose a whole-house particulate filter might be a more permanent solution, since we also have to clean out the grit from the shower heads every few years. For the whole house would I use one of those canister-type filters, or a simple y- or t-strainer with a fine-mesh screen like I have for the untreated outdoor sprinkler/faucet water?

 

[wallygator69]

http://www.siouxchief.com/B_Products_Prods.cfm?ID=35

Sioux Chief "mini rester". Were in the water heater hookup area at home depot and near the washing machine hose hookup area at my lowes.

http://www.siouxchief.com/PDF/MiniResterbrochure04.PDF

Best thing to do if you have a real problem with this (aside from replacing the valves causing the problems) is to pick a high spot in the attic where your pipes run, cut into the hot and cold and solder in a tee facing up, then solder in 18" of pipe and cap it.
But these sure are a lot easier to do...

Wouldn't a single rester in the hot and one in the cold supply lines in the attic protect the entire house?

Thx,

W

 

[BUM]

Our current fridge doesn't even have an icemaker.

OMG what are you, like CAMPING?

 

[Nords]

We have an ion exchange water conditioner followed by a similar iron filter (oxidizes, precipitates, and filters out Fe). It may be the beads from this filter that end up clogging the washing machine.

IX resins aren't supposed to do that, and there's a problem if you're seeing resin fines in the washing-machine filters. I don't know about the iron filter-- we put a chelating powder ("Iron Out") in the water conditioner's salt reservoir.

I suppose a whole-house particulate filter might be a more permanent solution, since we also have to clean out the grit from the shower heads every few years. For the whole house would I use one of those canister-type filters, or a simple y- or t-strainer with a fine-mesh screen like I have for the untreated outdoor sprinkler/faucet water?

Either type of whole-house filter should work but there's still the chance of other corrosion in the copper piping inside the house (especially if the water has an acidic pH) that's putting the grit in the shower heads.

We've had a water conditioner in a rental home for nearly 10 years. Every time I've opened the inlet filter I've found... nothing. Yet we still occasionally have grit to clean out of the shower heads and mineral rings in the toilets, so the water conditioner doesn't get every last bit of calcium or magnesium. Or else something is happening in the house's water pipes or people are putting their own Ca & Mg in the toilets...

OMG what are you, like CAMPING?

After the second rodent I decided to stop advertising "Free water!" for a while. We've never hooked it back up.

I wonder what costs less-- having your refrigerator make the ice or buying it from the store.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Wouldn't a single rester in the hot and one in the cold supply lines in the attic protect the entire house?

To a degree. In a perfect world, you have an arrestor at each solenoid/high speed valve, as close to the valve as possible. For example, these washing machine ones should be connected to the washer rather than the washers valves. The further away the arrestor is from the 'problem' valve, the longer the reaction time to stop the water hammer. A central arrestor is a decent compromise but not quite ideal.

Washing machines, dishwashers, some toilet valves, and irrigation valve solenoids are usually the evil-doers.

Nords...I have a whole house carbon and grit filter yet oddly I still get some fine grained sandy stuff in my inlet baskets. When I replaced the washing machine lines yesterday the hot water inlet basket was JAMMED full of fine grain whitish/tan colored sand. Nothing in the cold. I moved that water heater 2.5 years ago and it was clean then. Methinks some of this is mineral sediment formed in the water heater, after the filter. Or maybe some sort of buildup in the pipes, probably at a low point or a joint, that periodically lets go.

Should be interesting to keep an eye on going forward. The new WH i put in had a swirly inlet that allegedly self cleans the unit continuously rather than letting the sediment build up in the bottom of the WH. If that works, I should get more crud in the hot water inlets, and in all inlets that combine water.

 

[JohnEyles]

Washing machines, dishwashers, some toilet valves, and irrigation valve solenoids are usually the evil-doers.

So you're saying it's probably not a coincidence that the pipe junction that failed
the other night is for one of the water lines (the cold one) to my washing machine ?
Interesting. Makes sense I guess. The inertia of water flowing in a pipe is analogous
to an electrical inductor, in which voltage (water pressure) is proportional to derivative
of current (water flow). So an abrupt change in flow generates a big pressure pulse.

Time to get one of these water-hammer arrestor dohickies. Why are they better than
one you just improvise with a vertical dead-end piece of pipe with air in it ?

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Well, the makers of true arrestors claim that the air filled pipes eventually become water logged and lose their effectiveness. Some claim this is worse the smaller the pipe diameter. Since the air filled vertical pipe is a time honored plumbing tradition, I suspect it works better than the arrestor makers make it out to. Thing is, 18 inches of horizontal pipe (dont go there Wahoo) is tough to tuck behind a washing machine. And ten bucks isnt that much money.

The old fashioned plumbers point out that the diaphragm in the arrestor will eventually fail, but the arrestor makers claim 500,000 (or more) actuations before failure. Thats a lot of loads of laundry.

Your analogy is good enough as to the problem. You make a pulse and it has to be dissipated somehow. In normal operation, this is dissipated by shaking the crap out of your pipes. Over time well fastened pipes will loosen, making the problem worse. Newer valves with faster, more direct on/off operation, faster and cheaper solenoids all contribute.

I'm gonna slip one on the dishwasher next week when I have a chance. Looks like they make one sized for that.

 

[REWahoo]

Thing is, 18 inches of horizontal pipe (dont go there Wahoo) is tough to tuck behind a washing machine.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Shoot I meant vertical pipe, which just makes it worse.

 

[BUM]

So you're saying it's probably not a coincidence that the pipe junction that failed
the other night is for one of the water lines (the cold one) to my washing machine ?
Interesting. Makes sense I guess. The inertia of water flowing in a pipe is analogous
to an electrical inductor, in which voltage (water pressure) is proportional to derivative
of current (water flow). So an abrupt change in flow generates a big pressure pulse.

Time to get one of these water-hammer arrestor dohickies. Why are they better than
one you just improvise with a vertical dead-end piece of pipe with air in it ?

I recently replaced my water heater (freebie lifetime item from Lowes!) and Holy crap! the damn thing musta weighed 200 lbs. It was filled with sand and beach crud! Amazing, and it was on the second floor


Moral of the story.... if you're by-the-sea, get the lifetime warrantee unit