The Electric Vehicle Thread

[JoeWras]

What EV's need to do is let off a huge "brupp.... brupp... brupp..brupp" sound like a semi does when the operator uses their Jake Brake.

You don't see a brake light, but man you know that vehicle is slowing down.

(... It's a joke, joke, joke, ok? ...)

 

[audreyh1]

What EV's need to do is let off a huge "brupp.... brupp... brupp..brupp" sound like a semi does when the operator uses their Jake Brake.

You don't see a brake light, but man you know that vehicle is slowing down.

(... It's a joke, joke, joke, ok? ...)

Thanks, but I have enough with the weird spacey UFO sound that the Tesla makes when it goes into reverse. It does make nearby pedestrians pay attention which is the whole point, so it’s effective even though it’s not nearly as loud or annoying as a backup beeper. The car can’t be silent in this scenario - overall it’s pretty funny.

 

[misanman]

Thanks, but I have enough with the weird spacey UFO sound that the Tesla makes when it goes into reverse.

I heard this for the first time yesterday (there was a Tesla in the parking lot). If this is for backing up, why not use the beep, beep, beep sound that is commonly used for construction equipment?

 

[audreyh1]

I heard this for the first time yesterday (there was a Tesla in the parking lot). If this is for backing up, why not use the beep, beep, beep sound that is commonly used for construction equipment?

That tends to disturb the peace far more. Cars don’t normally have back-up beepers, that’s usually for big heavy equipment.

I’m very glad it doesn’t make that beeper sound. Waking up the neighbors when we are backing into our car port? No thanks! This sound is far more discrete, but very effective at close distances.

 

[Ronstar]

While out for a ride on my e-bike, I saw an unoccupied Tesla on the side of the road. First Tesla I’ve seen in my neighborhood. Don’t know what the car was doing there. Or if it was stranded. Nobody around. Took a pic of it in case I needed to report it to the authorities. Didn’t get too close to it in case it had cameras or some kind of defensive measures. But I later saw it on the move.

 

[NW-Bound]

To rehash: The YouTuber shows that his own Ioniq 5 could decelerate at 0.25-0.30G by regen without turning on its brake lights.

I suspect that a lot of people do not appreciate what this deceleration means.

A car with an automatic transmission when coasting decelerates at a much lower rate than the above. I read the comments under the above video, and many posters pointed out that a motorcycle or a car with a manual transmission when coasting would decelerate more than a car with AT, and they would tap the brake to warn the vehicles behind them. But do they decelerate at 0.25-0.30G? No, way way less.

And several video commenters also pointed out correctly that most semis do not have their brake lights turned on when deploying their jake brakes. Now, I am not a semi driver, and have no doubt that jake brakes are very effective in slowing down a loaded semi when coasting downhill and this would prevent serious accidents if the semi's friction brakes burn out due to a long down slope.

But can a jake brake affect a deceleration of 0.25-0.30 G?

Here's a number for the curious minds. If a jake brake can cause a deceleration of 0.25-0.30G, then it could slow down a truck on an incline of 25-30%. The steepest incline I have seen on a freeway is 6%. Has anyone seen a highway with an incline of 25-30%?

Even if such steep public highways existed, you would have a hell of a time having your tires maintaining a grip when it rains.


Another number for the curious minds. A widely cited study by Hoberock (1976) argues that, for a public transport vehicle, the longitudinal acceleration/deceleration in normal operation (not an emergency), should be in the range of 1.08–1.47 m/s^2. This is 0.11-0.15G in deliberate normal-driving stopping actions. You would think that the vehicle brake lights would turn on well under that range.

And the Ioniq 5 can slow down at 0.25-0.30 G without turning on its brake lights. And this operation is OK within the current wordings of NHTSA regulations.

It is not that it is hard for Huyndai engineers to do the right thing. It is that they think the right thing is the "letter of the law", instead of the "spirit of the law".

What has to be done, as the YouTuber shows, is to change the "letter of the law", and to mandate a recall to fix this serious deficiency of the Ioniq 5.

 

[Montecfo]

I think the consumer should almost always buy the vehicle that best fits them (either their needs, or their desires), but I make a rare exception for VW group vehicles after diesel-gate.



If the world were even remotely fair or just, VW should've been fined appropriately and gone bankrupt for blatant disregard of human life and actively deceiving authorities for years. Their executives should've been prosecuted and jailed too. Instead, they were rewarded. Ugh.









Well, if you're right, the mid-1980's was 40 years ago. Even the ones that took 20 years to replace would have tanks that are 20 years old. As far as I know, the double-walled tanks are warranted for 30 years. That means this replacement cycle is about to start now.



Selling gas is an extremely slim-margin business. Most profit is from non-fuel products (convenience products, food, etc.) while most of the costs are related to gasoline fuel (environmental impact studies, annual inspections, tank replacements, etc).



To make it worthwhile to continue to sell gasoline, the owner would have to believe that selling gasoline is profitable enough to invest in another 30-40 years for a tanks. If I were in their shoes, I would not be so confident... especially in less-dense areas or less-than-perfect locations.



Enough stations need to stop selling fuel to allow the remaining stations to be profitable. That will reduce the convenience of the gasoline vehicle which will further drive the EV adoption... and this will continue until an "EV" is just a "car."



The start of this is already happening in California and in the Bay Area. I went to a Memorial Weekend BBQ at a friends house today, and of the 9 vehicles in the driveway, 7 were electric, 1 was hybrid, and 1 was gasoline. Of the 7 electric, 6 were Tesla vehicles. Of the 6 Tesla vehicles, there was 1 Model X (mine), 1 Model 3, and 4 Model Y's. 10 years ago, I would drive my Tesla to any random parking lot and people would come up to us and ask us questions. Today, it's totally normal to be surrounded by at least 3 Teslas when you are waiting for a green light at a random intersection.

Human life?

 

[JoeWras]

And several video commenters also pointed out correctly that most semis do not have their brake lights turned on when deploying their jake brakes. Now, I am not a semi driver, and have no doubt that jake brakes are very effective in slowing down a loaded semi when coasting downhill and this would prevent serious accidents if the semi's friction brakes burn out due to a long down slope.

But can a jake brake affect a deceleration of 0.25-0.30 G?

So I made an attempt at a joke about the jake brakes, I didn't realize it was in the video.

I have no idea on the G-forces. All I know is when deployed under load, they make more noise than a horn. This is very effective in getting attention.

Jake brakes create a whole can of worms because of this noise. Most cities do not allow the usage of them because of this, so the problem of no brake light is less likely to be seen in tight traffic.

 

[Montecfo]

Things are not simply "different" in California. For most trends, California is simply a leading indicator for the rest of the country. And I'm not "beating that drum" for the sake of beating that drum. It was directly relevant to the the trend that was being discussed -- my assertion that gas stations will rapidly disappear, EV adoption will contribute to it, and gasoline vehicles have nearly no inherent advantages over EVs and that their sole major advantage, quick refueling during road trips, is an infrastructure advantage that can & will go away.

I do not think that is a widely held view. Most EV owners do not own an EV as their primary driver, for range and cost reasons. Often these are second or third cars of relatively rich folks.

And the idea that somehow these cars are combating climate change is at best mixed. First, they burn mostly fossil fuels. 2nd, the batteries require minerals strip mined overseas in conditions that would not meet US environmental or human rights standards, and mostly in countries not particularly friendly to us.

They also are heavily subsidized with average taxpayers in essence paying the cost of relatively rich people's toys.

So there may be psychic benefits to the owner but objectively not a bonanza for the environment.

And massive costly grid upgrades have yet to even be priced out.

The positives I think are less noise in cities and smog in cities reduced.

 

[NW-Bound]

So I made an attempt at a joke about the jake brakes, I didn't realize it was in the video.

I have no idea on the G-forces. All I know is when deployed under load, they make more noise than a horn. This is very effective in getting attention.

Jake brakes create a whole can of worms because of this noise. Most cities do not allow the usage of them because of this, so the problem of no brake light is less likely to be seen in tight traffic.

No, the YouTube video makes no mention of jake brake. This is mentioned by several video commenters, similarly to your side comment above.

Hence, I make a comparison of a jake brake to the Ioniq 5 regen brake, in order to show how "powerful" the latter is.

And as I mentioned steep roads, let's look at the famous Pikes Peak road, where people attempt to set new records of fastest hill climbing. How steep is this road?

The average grade is 6.1%. 9.9 miles (41% of the climb) are at 5-10% grade; 4.5 miles (18%) are at 10-15%, and 0.3 miles (1.1%) are at 15-20%. The steepest quarter mile is 12% and steepest full mile is 10%.​

Far short of my example of 25-30% slope, eh?

And by the way, the VW I.D., an EV race car, set the record of 7 min 57 sec on the Pikes Peak climb in 2018.

 

[audreyh1]

So I made an attempt at a joke about the jake brakes, I didn't realize it was in the video.

I have no idea on the G-forces. All I know is when deployed under load, they make more noise than a horn. This is very effective in getting attention.

Jake brakes create a whole can of worms because of this noise. Most cities do not allow the usage of them because of this, so the problem of no brake light is less likely to be seen in tight traffic.

My motorhome had a two stage Jake brake. Didn’t make any noise other than the engine revving up due to downshifting which wasn’t extra noisy.

Oh yeah, and so it would slow down by me just easing up on the accelerator. No idea about the brake lights - probably didn't light up.

 

[folivier]

I've had a couple motorhomes with Jake brakes and they do work well. Mine weren't very noisy since they had a muffler on them. Some 18 wheelers don't have mufflers on the Jake which is why you hear the loud braaappp.
My latest motorhome had a transmission retarder which is similar but uses the tranny to slow down. It had 6 positions and was more effective than a Jake.
All 3 motorhomes when activating either the Jake or retarder the brakes lights did come on. Not sure about 18 wheelers but it can certainly be set up that way.

 

[audreyh1]

All 3 motorhomes when activating either the Jake or retarder the brakes lights did come on. Not sure about 18 wheelers but it can certainly be set up that way.

That’s good to know, I never thought about it. Of course the big monster motorhome would never slow as fast as a car anyway, and I kept my distance regardless and didn’t speed up or slow down quickly. It was 15 tons.

It was very cool to drive with the turbo-Diesel and all sort of bell and whistles. Sitting way up high big glass, cushy ride from the giant airbags. I did all the driving too.

 

[ken830]

Thanks, but I have enough with the weird spacey UFO sound that the Tesla makes when it goes into reverse. It does make nearby pedestrians pay attention which is the whole point, so it’s effective even though it’s not nearly as loud or annoying as a backup beeper. The car can’t be silent in this scenario - overall it’s pretty funny.

One of the stupidest and targeted rules ever... Corruption on full display here. I've already talked about this in detail earlier in this thread, so no need to rehash it... But want to re-iterate my unhappiness with it

All by my latest Tesla were near-completely silent and they are so pleasant to drive without that weird whirling sound.

 

[ken830]

I do not think that is a widely held view. Most EV owners do not own an EV as their primary driver, for range and cost reasons. Often these are second or third cars of relatively rich folks.

And the idea that somehow these cars are combating climate change is at best mixed. First, they burn mostly fossil fuels. 2nd, the batteries require minerals strip mined overseas in conditions that would not meet US environmental or human rights standards, and mostly in countries not particularly friendly to us.

They also are heavily subsidized with average taxpayers in essence paying the cost of relatively rich people's toys.

So there may be psychic benefits to the owner but objectively not a bonanza for the environment.

And massive costly grid upgrades have yet to even be priced out.

The positives I think are less noise in cities and smog in cities reduced.

Can you point to any data sources for these somewhat outrageous or outdated claims?

Our family's main primary vehicle has been electric for over 10 years... the secondary and (occasionally) tertiary vehicles were also EVs. My Brother's primary and secondary vehicles are also EVs. My mom and dad each have an EV as their respective primary vehicles. Every one of my family, friends, and coworkers that have Tesla use them as primary or only vehicle. Plenty of them also have EVs from other manufacturers that are also used as primary vehicles. In fact, I don't personally know anyone that uses their Tesla as a secondary vehicle. Those are all anecdotal, sure, but I'm pretty certain if we had statistics, it would show that here in California, or anywhere really, people purchase Tesla vehicles as their primary vehicle.

How are they rich people's toys? The cost of a Tesla is near (and below) the average price of a new vehicle in the US. And the cost of ownership of a Model 3 is less than a Toyota Corolla in many, many use cases.

How much subsidies are given to rich people? The current federal incentives and most local incentives have income limits or price caps. I'm probably upper-middle class (far from poor, but not rich) and I did not get (nor did I qualify for) any government incentives (local or federal) in my last purchase. Even my long-retired parents did not qualify for any incentives when they got their latest Tesla last year. We need to talk about fossil fuel subsidies if you want to truly compare. Fossil fuel subsidies have been around for many decades and are pretty much permanent, whereas all EV subsidies so far have short-to-medium term limits. Fossil fuel subsidies is also complex because some of them obviously go toward electricity generation that is also consumed by EVs.

But EVs' carbon footprint compared to ICE is a well studied topic and all studies I've read show that EVs quickly have a net benefit after very short time periods or usage.

 

[folivier]

Best EV trip planner?

What is the best website to plan a long distance trip showing fast charging stations and hotels with overnight charging?
Especially showing the number of chargers.
Preferably those with a cafe or restaurant within a short walk to a fast charger?
It also needs to have the capability to adjust my route where I want to avoid certain cities, etc.

 

[joesxm3]

I've heard that ChatGPT is able to do a good job on this sort of things if you make a good prompt.

Chat.openai.com

Or build into Microsoft edge Bing.

 

[NW-Bound]

That’s good to know, I never thought about it. Of course the big monster motorhome would never slow as fast as a car anyway, and I kept my distance regardless and didn’t speed up or slow down quickly. It was 15 tons.

It was very cool to drive with the turbo-Diesel and all sort of bell and whistles. Sitting way up high big glass, cushy ride from the giant airbags. I did all the driving too.

Anyone wants to guess when we will be able to see electric class A motorhomes, or even class B and C motorhomes?

I just found out that Norway will ban cruise ships in its fjords in 2025, unless they are electric!

Well, will that mean the end of fjord cruising?

I don't know what the ship building industry is planning to do, but any electric cruise ship they can build is going to be small in terms of passenger capacity, because it will be choked full with lithium batteries.

Ummm... In view of battery fire hazards, I would not want to be the first guinea pig. Would you?

Glad I will be taking a fjord cruise soon, in one of these big dirty diesel-burning ships.

PS. An electric cruiseship can solve the battery limited capacity problem by having onboard a small nuclear reactor. However, I don't think Norway likes this either.

 

[audreyh1]

What is the best website to plan a long distance trip showing fast charging stations and hotels with overnight charging?
Especially showing the number of chargers.
Preferably those with a cafe or restaurant within a short walk to a fast charger?
It also needs to have the capability to adjust my route where I want to avoid certain cities, etc.

I don’t use overnight hotel charging. Not worth it to me and nor nearly as reliable as a fast charging station.

I use the A Better Route Planner app to initially plan our trips (Tesla oriented) using Tesla superchargers. They also have a website. This helps me evaluate overall routes. But once ready to hit the road the Tesla in car navigation figures it all out and monitors in real time. Both show restaurants etc. at charging stops. Neither show destination chargers such as hotels. Both you can modify routes.

abetterouteplanner.com - I think I used this at first but quickly switched to the app. It shows the stores and facilities at each charging station. Most superchargers do have restaurants etc. nearby. You can add stops, pick alternate chargers, etc. It does not show destination chargers.

 

[Koolau]

I do think there should be punitive consequences to deter copy-cats (and there were copy-cats in BMW and Mercedes), but even without a punitive component, the cost to mitigate and reverse even a tiny fraction of the environmental and health damage on a global level is more than enough to bankrupt them several times over. These highly-polluting vehicles are STILL operating all over the world. Recalls, repairs, fines, and enforcement of these actions have been laughable. Part of this is because stricter enforcement would inconvenience the consumers who purchased them, and there would need to be enough resources to compensate them, which we don't have without extracting/demanding more from VW, which governments have seemingly refused to do so.

The health consequences are still with us. The environmental impacts are still with us. And looking at the market cap of VW Group, basically, they got off 100% scot-free. And they were then rewarded with this forced "re-inventing" of their line-up to include EVs... Without that, they would probably be where Toyota is today with their crappy EV position or worse.

Yeah, it was a dirty deal that V-dub pulled with the emissions, but in what way are the health consequences - and especially the environmental impacts still with us? In the great scheme of things, the junk that the V-dubs put into the air is minuscule to the stuff being put into the air in countries like China every day. Realistically, only a few cities would have been affected at the time (places like LA, for instance) and all that pollution has been absorbed, converted or diluted to virtually zero effect by now.

Evil as it was, the effects have long since been diluted out.

 

[Koolau]

I just saw this video from a fellow who has posted many excellent technical articles. He points out that in the one-pedal driving mode, the Hyundai Ioniq 5 will decelerate from 60 mph to a stop in 13 seconds. That's a deceleration of 1/4 G and quite rapid.

Yet, because the driver does not use the brake pedal, the car brake lights do not turn on!

That's bad. I am surprised there have not been more rear-ending accidents. If this happens, do we blame the following driver for not paying attention? Maybe it's OK if the car behind is a newer type with forward-collision avoidance + automatic emergency braking?

This fellow makes an excellent argument that the NHTSA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) is way behind the current technology, and has not been able to formulate new updated guidance and regulations.

I've seen several Teslas whose brake lights do not come on during significant slow-down periods. They finally come on at a stop sign/stop light when the vehicle comes to a dead stop. At first I actually assume their stop lamps didn't w*rk but that wasn't the case. YMMV

 

[Koolau]

Anyone wants to guess when we will be able to see electric class A motorhomes, or even class B and C motorhomes?

I think it will be quite a while. The ratio of GVW to battery weight is key. A Tesla is (what?) 5000 lbs to 1000lbs? An equivalent Class A at 20,000 lbs would require a 4000 lb battery. Imagine the cost of that battery!

 

[explanade]

I just found out that Norway will ban cruise ships in its fjords in 2025, unless they are electric!

Well, will that mean the end of fjord cruising?

I don't know what the ship building industry is planning to do, but any electric cruise ship they can build is going to be small in terms of passenger capacity, because it will be choked full with lithium batteries.

The cruise ships are a big pollution problem. You could see the plumes they create. Some of the geography of the fjords just trap the smog from the cruise ships like they've been fed into a test tube.

I would imagine they've studied what the tradeoffs would be. Maybe it means fewer cruises so that could mean lesser tourism income.

Since the country is so rich, maybe they are willing to risk lower tourism money, at least at the beginning.

I saw a video, though he seems to have several, of a road trip in Norway with a Model Y and him checking out the charging infrastructure.

So in a couple of segments he does a ferry crossing and he's going around checking out the electric or hybrid components of the ferry. Seems to be well-versed on electrification of transport, not just EVs.

 

[audreyh1]

Anyone wants to guess when we will be able to see electric class A motorhomes, or even class B and C motorhomes?

I would pay attention. Charge up at the RV Park!

We’d be looking at class B probably - we’re done with bigger rigs (it was awesome while it lasted). DH is tall so that is a challenge with smaller RVs.

 

[Midpack]

I think it will be quite a while. The ratio of GVW to battery weight is key. A Tesla is (what?) 5000 lbs to 1000lbs? An equivalent Class A at 20,000 lbs would require a 4000 lb battery. Imagine the cost of that battery!

And of course you have to decide what's optimal, it's not necessarily longest range possible. Tesla's and other EVs could have larger batteries, but the extra weight partially offsets additional range and diminishes handling, and increases the cost>price. Quite a while ago Musk stated 250 miles was the lowest acceptable range. From what I've read Tesla has concluded low 300's is the range most buyers will actually bite on. Of course there is a segment of the buying population that wants/needs more range, but they're not the majority according to Tesla's thinking. Balance of cost v range v weight. Of course RVs, semis, work trucks and cars are different audiences with different needs, but there's still a band of best range for the most buyers.

From what I've read the Model Y weighs 4480 lbs, with batteries that weigh from 981(4680) to 1060 (MYLR 2170) lbs, with range from 269 to 330 miles.