The Electric Vehicle Thread

[Texas Proud]

+!

I don't believe anyone has said that ICE is perfect for any situation, nor has anyone said EVs are perfect for all situations.

The big question is, what portion of the market will EVs work for.

For some families, EVs are perfect. But that isn't saying they are perfect for all families.

Really, ICE has not been said it was perfect in any situation? I do believe it has but...


My Pilot is perfect for me taking my boat to the lake a few hundred miles away that has zero EV chargers... while an EV just will not work...


An ICE is perfect for getting somewhere 500 or more miles away in the quickest way if driving... also without having to change the way you go so you have charging stations that work... again, an EV will just not work...


I can see the benefit of having an EV to do daily driving to and from work/store/etc and charge at home... when the costs come down... I still think a short range EV/hybrid might be a better option...

 

[Midpack]

Interesting where EV charging at night is preferable with conventional fuel power plants to balance load, just the opposite where solar is in the mix to reduce battery storage requirements. Another key part of the future solution as the article points out, "Charging controls, also called smart or managed charging, reshape demand by delaying charging to a preset time or by modulating the power delivered throughout a vehicle’s charging session in response to electricity prices." With smart charging (automatic load demand management) consumers don't have to be as aware of when to charge as the grid transitions to more renewables - but it will still require some careful system design.

As for charging customers different rates during the 24 hour day to level demand, where lower off-peak rates are how (some) conventional utilities have tried to limit the existing spikes, in the future getting a lower rate may hinge on letting the utility use smart charging at homes and workplaces. I hope they do.

 

[Ronstar]

Illinois new houses/ apartments to be ev charging system ready. Buildings to be prewired for charging systems.

https://pantagraph.com/news/state-a...harging Act,unit that has dedicated parking.”


https://thesouthern.com/bill-requir...cle_961e1b46-10dc-5af5-99e0-b66821b810e9.html

 

[audreyh1]

Most of the renewable power in Texas is wind power, and it supplies a large chunk. Leads the nation.

24% wind in 2021. Wind, solar and nuclear combined 38%.

 

[Koolau]

I find my model Y to be superior, except possibly for a slightly stiffer ride and having to rotate tires more often.

I kept my Acura as a spare, but choose to drive the Y for my longer trips, which are only 100 round trip, so I can't comment on cross country. I have never been to a super charger.

I don't miss going to the gas station every week and dropping $70, nor worrying about where to get an emission test.

I put it in dog mode when I leave my 96 year old mother in the car while shopping. I don't worry about overheating and can check on her from my phone via the cabin camera.

I just ordered FSD for a month and am a bit disappointed to not be offered beta test right away. Autopilot is wonderful, but FSD right now may not be worth the cost compared to free autopilot. I let it drive on basic autopilot on 95% of my highway driving.

I don't care about hugging trees and if my model Y used gasoline but had the same power, torque, acceleration, one peddle driving, safety score, level of electronics, over the air updates and did not need oil changes I would still like it.

Except, having my boiler in the garage, it sprung a gas leak and burned the house down.

Wait. What? Your garage/house burned down? Dang. That trumps any discussion of EVs. So sorry to hear this. But, no one hurt I assume? Blessings.

 

[joesxm3]

Wait. What? Your garage/house burned down? Dang. That trumps any discussion of EVs. So sorry to hear this. But, no one hurt I assume? Blessings.

Sorry. Typo. Meant to type if it sprung a leak. House is fine.

 

[Koolau]

Sorry. Typo. Meant to type if it sprung a leak. House is fine.

Whoa! Thanks. I feel better already.

Returning you now...

 

[JoeWras]

"if": perhaps the most important small word in the English language.

 

[RobLJ]

I only know our own experience, but we use the Bolt EV for everyday driving and the RAV for long trips (like the camping trip to Joshua Tree in April and the 230 mile trips to visit the winemaker and grandkids in Merced; the AWD and all terrain tires are very good for going over Donner Pass, which I wouldn't want to do in winter in the Bolt unless I put snow tires on it).
Because of a lot of long camping trips and babysitting the grandkids in Cali we put about 20% more miles on the RAV Prime since we bought it. However, it is cheap driving for trips less than 40 miles since it is a plug-in. So our gasoline expense has dropped to about 15% of what it used to be with the Forester and Silverado. YMMV.

I suspect a hybrid/PHEV and EV mix is a pretty good one for a lot of 2 vehicle families, but of course it will depend on the use case.

I'd imagine there aren't very many households that have an EV as their only car, but let's face it, there aren't a whole lot of single-vehicle households these days, anyway.

But, for multiple vehicle households, I'd imagine that if they have an EV, it's probably their primary source of transportation. It would be the car they go back and forth to work in, run errands, etc, and then charge at home. The secondary vehicle might be something like a minivan, SUV, or truck. Or, once upon a time, that ghost of a bygone era, the full-sized car. Depending on your circumstances, the EV would probably get the most use, but then you'd use the other rig, if you needed to go a long distance, or carry a lot of passengers, and so on. It just seems silly to me to buy an EV, just to let it sit around as a spare/backup vehicle.

 

[Koolau]

I suspect a hybrid/PHEV and EV mix is a pretty good one for a lot of 2 vehicle families, but of course it will depend on the use case.

Again, I see the plug-in hybrid as the sweet spot of "EVs." Most of the time, you use electricity. When you need to go a long distance, you revert to gasoline (with it's advantages of quick fill-ups and long distance capability.) It all depends on a person's usage so YMMV.

 

[Montecfo]

Most of the renewable power in Texas is wind power, and it supplies a large chunk. Leads the nation.

24% wind in 2021. Wind, solar and nuclear combined 38%.

Well that appears to have become a problem, as fossil fueled plants are returning amid concerns about the reliability of wind and solar, as well as environmental concerns.

Texas, a Clean-Energy Pioneer, Turns Against Renewables https://www.wsj.com/articles/texas-clean-energy-renewables-opposition-a654a2d5

 

[Koolau]

Well that appears to have become a problem, as fossil fueled plants are returning amid concerns about the reliability of wind and solar, as well as environmental concerns.

Texas, a Clean-Energy Pioneer, Turns Against Renewables https://www.wsj.com/articles/texas-clean-energy-renewables-opposition-a654a2d5

Yes, as we've said many times, we can make the juice but just can't store it yet. I'm thinking that decentralized generation AND especially storage may be a better solution than huge storage facilities. Many people with EVs, installing solar panels with modest storage units would seem a better approach than balancing loads all day and night as folks try to charge EVs at the best rate.

Perhaps some day, when you buy your EV, you can also buy a solar "kit" (panels and battery banks and electronics) all at the same time that are matched to your charging needs. Some day...

 

[Midpack]

Yes, as we've said many times, we can make the juice but just can't store it yet. I'm thinking that decentralized generation AND especially storage may be a better solution than huge storage facilities. Many people with EVs, installing solar panels with modest storage units would seem a better approach than balancing loads all day and night as folks try to charge EVs at the best rate.

Perhaps some day, when you buy your EV, you can also buy a solar "kit" (panels and battery banks and electronics) all at the same time that are matched to your charging needs. Some day...

Presumably (much) less cost effective, just a matter of scale like anything.

 

[ken830]

they would not buy the car if they did not find that it's limitations are worth it and fit their lifestyles.

I don't think you fully get it or you just "misspoke." I want to re-emphasis one point. Today's available EVs are by no means perfect for every scenario (eg. towing a heavy trailer long distances), every category/class, and every one, but for many (dare I say most) of us, there are no limitations that we need to live with. We're not sacrificing anything. We're not compromising anything. We're not giving anything up.

Compared to an equivalent vehicle in it's class, my Tesla Model 3 is roomier and has more cargo space because it's electric. It accelerates quicker because it's electric. Its throttle is more responsive (it's near instantaneous) because it's electric. It's safer (both passive and active safety) because it's electric. Traction control is more effective because it's electric. It's quieter because it's electric. It has a lower CG because it's electric. It allowed my infant to remain sleeping in the vehicle with HVAC running in an enclosed garage because it's electric. It saves me time from refueling several times each week because it's electric. It's way, way cheaper to operate because its electric. It saves me time from emissions testing every other year and maintenance appointments because it's electric. This is just a small list of benefits that are made possible/better because of the electric drivetrain. If I were forced to own/drive a gasoline powered vehicle, I would literally be giving-up all of these benefits and more on top of the Tesla-specific benefits. I can't think of anything I would gain switching from my Tesla to a gasoline vehicle.

It sounds like you are ok with your vehicle's limitations, some of which you listed above. That was my point.

I don't know if you even read what I wrote, but what limitation did I list above?

Maybe it's a comprehension thing? Or a skimming and not actual reading? Either way, it's clear that everything has limitations. Every vehicle has limitations. But a vast majority of people that choose an EV over an ICE did so with zero limitations or compromises. So, your statement that an EV owner decided to buy an EV did so because they felt that the "limitations are worth it" is just a COMPLETE misunderstanding.

You did not actually refute any point I was making. But as I understand it the thread is to discuss the cars, not to discuss climate change. That was my larger point which I have made a couple of times.

And I think other folks have said this tangential discussion gets tedious and detracts from enjoyment of the discussion.

Yes, I did. I quoted your ENTIRE post and point-by-point refuted it with sources. And even did so with your response to my response pointing out how your sources don't support your point and was too dated to even be relevant.

It's also curious how you KEEP SAYING that talking about the environmental benefits is tedious to you, yet you were the one to bring up this subject (below) when NO ONE was talking about it at all. Your response was to my post about the California setting the trend and that the debatable infrastructure benefits of ICE are going to go away soon. ZERO about the environment until YOU brought it up and I had to refute your outrageous claims. And now YOU are the one to complain that we're talking about it? It's almost unbelievable and it's very difficult to keep a calm and honest conversation with you when you seem to not engage with what I'm actually writing and presenting along with sources.

And the idea that somehow these cars are combating climate change is at best mixed.

 

[audreyh1]

Well that appears to have become a problem, as fossil fueled plants are returning amid concerns about the reliability of wind and solar, as well as environmental concerns.

Texas, a Clean-Energy Pioneer, Turns Against Renewables https://www.wsj.com/articles/texas-clean-energy-renewables-opposition-a654a2d5

There has been a whole lot of finger pointing and political spin after the great Texas freeze where natural gas plants weren’t reliable either. This is far beyond the scope of this thread.

My original point was that solar, which is daytime dependent, is not the only renewable in widespread use.

 

[Koolau]

There has been a whole lot of finger pointing and political spin after the great Texas freeze where natural gas plants weren’t reliable either. This is far beyond the scope of this thread.

My original point was that solar, which is daytime dependent, is not the only renewable in widespread use.

I was thinking that Texas had quite a bit of wind. I recall T Boone Pickens wanted to produce wind electricity in the "wind corridor" and integrate it into the grid and save nat. gas for ICE fuel. Nat Gas is a truly elegant fuel and should not just be burned for electricity. Burning Nat Gas in ICE cars is much cleaner than gasoline and has very few issues OTHER than a lack of fueling stations. THAT issue should be easier than electrifying. It only takes a few minutes to fuel with Nat Gas but 20 to 40 minutes for a full charge of electricity at most charging stations. SO, 3 "pumps" of Nat Gas is roughly the equivalent of a typical charging station with 20 charge connectors. Converting a car to Nat Gas is fairly easy and relatively inexpensive.

Point I was going for is that I really thought Texas was a leader in wind - probably beginning with T. Boone Pickens efforts.

 

[RobLJ]

Again, I see the plug-in hybrid as the sweet spot of "EVs." Most of the time, you use electricity. When you need to go a long distance, you revert to gasoline (with it's advantages of quick fill-ups and long distance capability.) It all depends on a person's usage so YMMV.

We have a lot of intermediate trips to hike around the Sierras, so the Bolt is a lot cheaper to operate in those situations (it costs less than 20% what the Forester took and about 30% less than the RAV when it is using gas). So it depends. For a lot of households with only one vehicle, I agree with you. If you ignore our solar panels, it costs about 8.50 to drive the Bolt 300-310 miles which is the range we get in spring/fall/summer. Winter is about 250 miles so that would increase the cost a bit.

 

[audreyh1]

Point I was going for is that I really thought Texas was a leader in wind…

It is in the US.

 

[Popeye]

It is in the US.

I believe Texas would be 5th among countries in wind power capacity.

 

[Koolau]

I believe Texas would be 5th among countries in wind power capacity.

THAT is impressive. How are they doing with grid integration, stability, etc?

 

[Montecfo]

I don't know if you even read what I wrote, but what limitation did I list above?



Maybe it's a comprehension thing? Or a skimming and not actual reading? Either way, it's clear that everything has limitations. Every vehicle has limitations. But a vast majority of people that choose an EV over an ICE did so with zero limitations or compromises. So, your statement that an EV owner decided to buy an EV did so because they felt that the "limitations are worth it" is just a COMPLETE misunderstanding.









Yes, I did. I quoted your ENTIRE post and point-by-point refuted it with sources. And even did so with your response to my response pointing out how your sources don't support your point and was too dated to even be relevant.



It's also curious how you KEEP SAYING that talking about the environmental benefits is tedious to you, yet you were the one to bring up this subject (below) when NO ONE was talking about it at all. Your response was to my post about the California setting the trend and that the debatable infrastructure benefits of ICE are going to go away soon. ZERO about the environment until YOU brought it up and I had to refute your outrageous claims. And now YOU are the one to complain that we're talking about it? It's almost unbelievable and it's very difficult to keep a calm and honest conversation with you when you seem to not engage with what I'm actually writing and presenting along with sources.

This certainly is not productive. Maybe move on?

 

[ken830]

This certainly is not productive. Maybe move on?

You or me? If you make statements that are misleading or incorrect, it is to everyone's benefit that it is discussed openly.

 

[Koolau]

^^^^^^

Heh, heh, having been chided from time to time by our under-paid moderators, maybe BOTH move on. Not trying to take on moderator status (they couldn't pay me enough.) Just seems like a good idea at the time.

Love you both!

 

[Ronstar]

I went to a movie theater yesterday with an EV charging station. And saw one recently in Arizona occupied by a car with a ticket on the windshield. The car must have been there longer than allowed?

So are these chargers free? If not - about how much? And is the charging plug standard across makes/ models?

I no longer want an EV car - I'm waiting for a Jeep Magneto. https://www.motortrend.com/news/2023-jeep-magneto-30-concept-first-look-review/

 

[audreyh1]

I went to a movie theater yesterday with an EV charging station. And saw one recently in Arizona occupied by a car with a ticket on the windshield. The car must have been there longer than allowed?

So are these chargers free? If not - about how much? And is the charging plug standard across makes/ models?

I no longer want an EV car - I'm waiting for a Jeep Magneto. https://www.motortrend.com/news/2023-jeep-magneto-30-concept-first-look-review/

Can’t explain about the ticket. It may have been parked in a charging only spot but not plugged in to charge. If a car finishes charging but stays plugged in past say 5 mins at a busy charger it may get billed extra. I don’t think there would be any ticket on the windshield in that case.

Depending on the location- generally chargers are not free. They charge by time or kWh. 33-44c per kWh for fast charging is common which is 2-3x what I pay at home. Usually you have an account setup and interact with an app. Some locations such as a hotel or a restaurant it will be free but these are generally low power thus slow chargers - OK for overnight at the hotel. For Tesla superchargers all I have to do is plug in. The car communicates with the charger and identifies itself and my Tesla account automatically bills a credit card.

There are multiple standards for charger connectors. Tesla opened up theirs last year and Ford recently adopted it for future cars and EV.go had already supported it in some locations. The Tesla NACS connector is far less bulky than others such as CCS or CHAdeMo so this is good to see. CCS is also common and used in Europe including Tesla. Tesla has retrofitted some of their superchargers to allow CCS as well. Some of the older slow connector standards will fade away.

I have adapters for just about everything. But when on the road the fastest and most reliable by far are the Tesla superchargers so I use them almost exclusively on a road trip. I can also use any RV pedestal or house socket and I have. Destination chargers such as at hotels are unreliable - parking availability, whether they are operational, etc are challenges. I’ve only occasionally used them opportunistically and don’t count on availability when traveling.