The Electric Vehicle Thread

[ERD50]

Well, that's YOU (and I'm sure it is accurate). We sold our Silverado to our oldest son and daughter-in-law and they were shocked at the cost of the 35k service, which involved replacing all the fluids, for a tune of 1500. The Forester we traded in for the Bolt was coming up for the drive chain replacement and 90k? (can't remember) service, which would have been 2k+.

So while your existence exerts gravitation force that pulls on the moon, your reality might not quite intersect with others' experience, in terms of maintenance costs, for example. I try to keep this in mind.

Just keeping it real. Again, I don't doubt your post is accurate, for you.

Well, I don't doubt the accuracy of your post either, but you are comparing a Silverado to my Altima (which is a lot closer to your Bolt than a Silverado).

I have had 3 Altima's over the last 18 years, and have had the same experience with maintenance.

Cost to replace the batteries in the Bolt, $15,000. https://www.myev.com/research/ev-101/how-long-should-an-electric-cars-battery-last

Your serve.

My experience is in line with CardsFan, and I think is pretty typical for 'regular' daily drivers.

https://my.buick.com/content/dam/gm...ls/2017/Buick/Encore/Maintenance Schedule.pdf

With my mileage, oil changes are about once a year (15 minutes at the quick lube place).

Spark plugs at 60,000.
Trans fluid every 45,000.
Coolant at 150,000 or 5 years.

I don't really want to keep a car much past 10 years (stuff other than the drive train just starts to wear, newer cars have more features, etc), so with the miles I put on, these few things are done once or twice over the life of the vehicle. So maybe 2 extra trips over a 12 year period? That really isn't any major inconvenience or expense.

If someone enjoys their EV, that's great. But calling out ICE/transmission maintenance as a big factor just doesn't add up in most cases.

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

In terms of your reality, it seems you do your own maintenance; I admire that.
...

No, this isn't DIY. The stuff I listed I will (and have) had done at a shop. It isn't expensive.

For the rest of us non-mechanicals, I googled the cost of maintenance for an Altima; first 5 years from Edmunds (first hit):


https://www.edmunds.com/nissan/altima/2019/cost-to-own/

$5399

Well, they don't break down those numbers. Like I showed, there's almost nothing to be done in the first 5 years on my typical car. Oil changes ($80 a year?).

OK, cabin and air filters I do DIY, but only because it is so easy, and it's good to look under the hood once in a while, make sure there are no mice nests or anything. I did wipers at year 3 (car is in the garage out of the sun), but again, I want to control which ones I get and when, not the dealer's choice.

We're not talking torque wrenches and car ramps and craftsmen socket sets and getting your hands dirty here.

OK, maybe brakes in the first 5 years, but a hybrid will have long brake life as well, and hybrids are pretty common nowadays (at my low mileage, I don't think they make sense anyhow).

edit/add: Oh, and tires of course, depending on miles, but that's common across ICE/EV.


-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

For the rest of us non-mechanicals, I googled the cost of maintenance for an Altima; first 5 years from Edmunds (first hit):


https://www.edmunds.com/nissan/altima/2019/cost-to-own/

$5399

Well, they don't break down those numbers. Like I showed, there's almost nothing to be done in the first 5 years on my typical car. Oil changes ($80 a year?). ...

-ERD50

OK, those Edmunds numbers are crazy. This is what they say for my 2017 Buick Encore:

https://www.edmunds.com/buick/encore/2017/cost-to-own/?style=401648004


............Year 1, . Year 2, .. Year 3, .. Year 4, .. Year 5, ........ Total
Maintenance $1,765 ... $802 ...... $781 ... $1,161 .....$2,081 ....... $6,590

$6,590!!!!

OK, I'm only 3.5 years in, so let's say 1765+802+395 = $2,962

I've paid for 3 oil changes (~ $60 each), and a set of wiper blades. First two oil changes and a tire rotation were done N/C by dealer (I think it is a Buick/GM thing though?), but those would not have added much $. Even if I paid for all of it, it would be < $400 I think?

I inspect the air/cabin filter - they were fine.

So OK, if I drove more miles, it would be higher, but I don't know how you get to $6,590?

BTW, they call out a 2017 Tesla S maintenance at $7,221. So it doesn't seem like all that ICE/trans stuff makes a big difference (other than being cheaper?).

https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2017/cost-to-own/?style=401702531


-ERD50

 

[CardsFan]

^^^ Thanks ERD50 for making my case. I don't know where Edmunds gets those numbers. I agree they make no sense.

 

[KarlH]

I have a 2018 RAV4 Hybrid and am on the (very long) waiting list for a RAV4 Prime. I've seen recent ads for the Volvo XC40 Recharge and it looks pretty sweet. More upscale than the RAV4, but more $$$ too. It is 100% electric, but a 200-ish mile range works well for me. Any thoughts/reactions?

Look at the new Volkswagen ID4. Similar size, layout, and range, single motor front wheel drive (I think), but around $10-20k less with a base in the $40k range.

 

[ERD50]

^^^ Thanks ERD50 for making my case. I don't know where Edmunds gets those numbers. I agree they make no sense.

Yes, and I got even more curious, and looked at a Silverado (the model that RobLJ mentioned), thinking that maybe the maint costs for a truck would be much more. But it's actually a few $ less than my little crossover($6,536 vs my $6,590).


https://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/silverado-1500/2017/cost-to-own/?style=401666900

How the heck do they come up with $1,765 for the 1st year for my car? Even at their stated 15,000 miles/year (higher than DOT's 13,500 average figure), the only thing the manual calls out is two tire rotations and an air cleaner change. I suppose the oil-minder might call out one or two oil changes in 15,000 (probably just one though).

I also realized I had an error in my earlier post. I've owned my car for 4.5 years (not 3.5). My total routine maintenance spend was $284 (oil changes and wipers - not including a damaged tire). The first two oil changes and a tire rotation is included from Buick, though I actually paid for one of those oil changes out of convenience.

But I also realize I'm a little overdue for a brake fluid change (every 3 years), so I should add that in ( ~ $100 per the web). Manufacturers seem to vary on this recommendation, but I'm told it is a good idea because the brake fluid absorbs moisture over time (why can't they develop a brake fluid that is not hygroscopic?). Tesla says : Tesla recommends testing your brake fluid for contamination every 2 years and replacing as needed.


So that would be ~ $384 for my 4.5 years, vs Edmunds $5,549. They are high by a factor of 14x. Crazy.

-ERD50

 

[KarlH]

The one big difference on top of it all is FUEL. We don't buy the stuff and charge at home with the sun. Our solar production has offset car charging completely.

The other game changer is how service works. My last rotation and filter change was done in the driveway by Tesla. If I were working, they would have done it there. I have been to the service department for a warranty window replacement, but most of the ordinary service is done wherever I am.

 

[MRG]

The one big difference on top of it all is FUEL. We don't buy the stuff and charge at home with the sun. Our solar production has offset car charging completely.

The other game changer is how service works. My last rotation and filter change was done in the driveway by Tesla. If I were working, they would have done it there. I have been to the service department for a warranty window replacement, but most of the ordinary service is done wherever I am.

+1

I'm paying for electric, $14 covers 1000 miles.

 

[ncbill]

Yes, and I got even more curious, and looked at a Silverado (the model that RobLJ mentioned), thinking that maybe the maint costs for a truck would be much more. But it's actually a few $ less than my little crossover($6,536 vs my $6,590).

https://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/silverado-1500/2017/cost-to-own/?style=401666900

How the heck do they come up with $1,765 for the 1st year for my car? Even at their stated 15,000 miles/year (higher than DOT's 13,500 average figure), the only thing the manual calls out is two tire rotations and an air cleaner change. I suppose the oil-minder might call out one or two oil changes in 15,000 (probably just one though).

I also realized I had an error in my earlier post. I've owned my car for 4.5 years (not 3.5). My total routine maintenance spend was $284 (oil changes and wipers - not including a damaged tire). The first two oil changes and a tire rotation is included from Buick, though I actually paid for one of those oil changes out of convenience.

But I also realize I'm a little overdue for a brake fluid change (every 3 years), so I should add that in ( ~ $100 per the web). Manufacturers seem to vary on this recommendation, but I'm told it is a good idea because the brake fluid absorbs moisture over time (why can't they develop a brake fluid that is not hygroscopic?). Tesla says : Tesla recommends testing your brake fluid for contamination every 2 years and replacing as needed.

So that would be ~ $384 for my 4.5 years, vs Edmunds $5,549. They are high by a factor of 14x. Crazy.

-ERD50

Inflated dealer prices for service...not necessary for a truck that new.

When I saw "$1,500 for 35,000 mile service" I knew it had to be at a dealer.

"35,000 mile service" should just be an oil change plus checking other fluid levels & wear items like brake pads.

I just spent $1,500 at my independent mechanic...to have an engine with 200,000 miles (mostly highway) taken apart to have the original oil pump replaced...while in there I had them replace the timing belt & water pump as well, all with OEM (Toyota) parts.

 

[TriumphTR3fan]

With our Model 3 after 30k our total expenses have been $68.00 for a pair of cabin air filters. Also a similar total amount for 3 tire rotations. Our monthly cost of charging excluding trips is about $30.00. We are participating in a monthly survey of our charging pattern sponsored by our local electric company ( Portland General Electric )for about 2 years that reduces the cost by $10.00 per month. A unexpected benefit. We were also paid an additional $100 to complete a survey for PGE.

 

[CardsFan]

The one big difference on top of it all is FUEL. We don't buy the stuff and charge at home with the sun. Our solar production has offset car charging completely.

The other game changer is how service works. My last rotation and filter change was done in the driveway by Tesla. If I were working, they would have done it there. I have been to the service department for a warranty window replacement, but most of the ordinary service is done wherever I am.

First, my comments were related only to maintenance costs. Fuel is a different topic. The Edmunds numbers are fiction, for both EV and ICE vehicles. For the first 50k to 80k miles the only costs for an ICE vehicle not needed by an EV are batteries, fluids and filters. Yeah, if you own it longer you are looking belts, mufflers, shocks, etc. I have not needed to spend any money on those items in 18 years, since I don't go over 80K with a vehicle. But if you own the EV longer you might be looking at batteries, and not the $150 batteries like my ICE vehicle.

Second, you started talking about a Leaf, and now you mention Tesla. Do you have one of each?

 

[CardsFan]

The one big difference on top of it all is FUEL. We don't buy the stuff and charge at home with the sun. Our solar production has offset car charging completely.

On the topic of fuel.

You are also avoiding the road taxes included in gas prices, so you are really not paying your fair share (though there are proposals around to tax based on mileage)

Also, I am assuming your solar set up was not free. Shouldn't you be amortizing some of that cost and count it as vehicle fuel costs?

 

[ERD50]

Inflated dealer prices for service...not necessary for a truck that new. ...

Yeah, but that doesn't explain the Edmunds numbers. Even a dealer isn't going to charge $1,765 for the 1st year for my car. That should only be two tire rotations and an air cleaner change and one or two oil changes in their 15,000 profile. For simplicity, say each item cost the same, that's maybe 5 charges - $1,765/5 = $353 each. A $353 oil change? A $353 tire rotation? And assigning $353 to an air filter change is beyond the pale.

What do they figure, the investment return on that money for the rest of your life?

... A unexpected benefit. We were also paid an additional $100 to complete a survey for PGE.

I'd be wary of "Greeks bearing gifts" - maybe PGE is sizing up EV owners to pay for burying their transmission lines!

... The Edmunds numbers are fiction, for both EV and ICE vehicles. For the first 50k to 80k miles the only costs for an ICE vehicle not needed by an EV are batteries, fluids and filters. ... But if you own the EV longer you might be looking at batteries, and not the $150 batteries like my ICE vehicle. ...

I don't think that's true. IIRC, the EVs have a standard 12V battery for the accessories, and those tend to die out after X years, even with lighter use. And there is brake fluid, and while EVs and hybrids use far less of the pads/rotors, I think the fluid is still more of a time based thing (Tesla says have it tested every 2 years, and replace as needed).

Both have cabin filters, though the EV won't have an engine air filter of course (but that's a pretty minor cost/effort). And IIRC, Tesla's have coolant for the batteries, and I think it's on the same schedule as most cars?

-ERD50

 

[CardsFan]

Thanks again ERD50.

I admit to not knowing most of the details of an EV, since I have never considered purchasing one.

So it sounds like the NORMAL maintenance costs for both ICE and EV are even closer .

 

[TriumphTR3fan]

On the topic of fuel.

You are also avoiding the road taxes included in gas prices, so you are really not paying your fair share (though there are proposals around to tax based on mileage)

Also, I am assuming your solar set up was not free. Shouldn't you be amortizing some of that cost and count it as vehicle fuel costs?

As far as road use taxes they do pay. The title is a little click bait, but the linked article explains the issue in more depth. Here is a link explaining what Illinois residents pay.


https://electrek.co/2019/06/03/illinois-ridiculous-ev-fee/


Many states are working on this issue. Our state, Oregon, has a similar tax for EV's tacked onto the registration fee. Here, if you have a gas guzzler or muscle car you pay less registration fee because you pay more at the gas pump. It's on a sliding scale based on EPA estimated gas mileage. There is an issue about federal gas tax, but Congress is working on the issue.


A related subject is state rebates for EV's. The rebate is to encourage transition from ICE. Oregon has a sales tax but it is only applied to new vehicle sales. It is on all vehicles both ICE & EV. It funds the electric vehicle rebate. We paid about $260.00 & received $2500.00. Smaller vehicles like motorcycles receive less.

 

[TriumphTR3fan]

On the topic of fuel.

You are also avoiding the road taxes included in gas prices, so you are really not paying your fair share (though there are proposals around to tax based on mileage)

Also, I am assuming your solar set up was not free. Shouldn't you be amortizing some of that cost and count it as vehicle fuel costs?

As far as road use taxes they do pay. The title is a little click bait, but the linked article explains the issue in more depth. Here is a link explaining what Illinois residents pay.


https://electrek.co/2019/06/03/illinois-ridiculous-ev-fee/


Many states are working on this issue. Our state, Oregon, has a similar tax for EV's tacked onto the registration fee. Here, if you have a gas guzzler or muscle car you pay less registration fee because you pay more at the gas pump. It's on a sliding scale based on EPA estimated gas mileage. There is an issue about federal gas tax, but Congress is working on the issue.

 

[Zathras]

On the topic of fuel.

You are also avoiding the road taxes included in gas prices, so you are really not paying your fair share (though there are proposals around to tax based on mileage)

Also, I am assuming your solar set up was not free. Shouldn't you be amortizing some of that cost and count it as vehicle fuel costs?

It almost isn’t worth calculating out it some places.
I was curious though, so I did exactly that.

Short answer, our solar is costing us about $0.005/mile to drive our electric cars.
Gas, at the current $3/gallon costs the average driver about $0.12/mile or 24 times the cost.

Long answer: I added the install costs + (the expected replacement costs of the inverters x 2). I then subtracted the federal and state & utility rebates.
I took that total and divided the total by the expected lifetime production of the solar array (taking into account degradation of the panels) to get a cost/kWh.

My locked in, cost for electricity, for the next 35 years, is $0.12/kWh prior to any rebates or net metering.
My cost for power after taking rebates into effect is $0.015/kWh. At a conservative 3 miles/kWh, that comes to $0.005/mile for fuel.

These numbers will vary widely depending upon state and utility.

 

[yhoomajor]

Not "apple to apple" comparison going on in this thread.

Some costs are added upfront. For EV: you pay upfront for a large pile of Lithium under your car. Roughly around $10k.for an average EV.

Add that to the cost when folks calculate how much they are paying per mile. There is a reason starting price of an average starter EV is $35k and for ICE it is $25k. Cost of Lithium pack.

EVs are not cheaper by any meaningful measure. And no one talks about irreversible damage that is done to to environment when & where Lithium has to be mined and refined. Not environment friendly in any shape or form.

Now if we talk about Hydrogen electric vehicle.. then we are talking about entirely different ballgame. Hydrogen is the most abundant element on earth's surface. Literally everywhere. But Tesla crowd has been bad mouthing hydrogen electric at every chance they get. Not sure whats up with that. Me thinks it may have something to do with the fact that most Tesla owners are also Tesla shareholders.

I'm not against EVs. If they float your boat.. go for them. I would like one around $25k with decent range. But give me a Hydrogen electric vehicle.. with ability to fill up anywhere and I am sold! Its coming in 10 years no matter how much Tesla crowd whines.

 

[TriumphTR3fan]

Yeah, but that doesn't explain the Edmunds numbers. Even a dealer isn't going to charge $1,765 for the 1st year for my car. That should only be two tire rotations and an air cleaner change and one or two oil changes in their 15,000 profile. For simplicity, say each item cost the same, that's maybe 5 charges - $1,765/5 = $353 each. A $353 oil change? A $353 tire rotation? And assigning $353 to an air filter change is beyond the pale.

What do they figure, the investment return on that money for the rest of your life?




I'd be wary of "Greeks bearing gifts" - maybe PGE is sizing up EV owners to pay for burying their transmission lines!



I don't think that's true. IIRC, the EVs have a standard 12V battery for the accessories, and those tend to die out after X years, even with lighter use. And there is brake fluid, and while EVs and hybrids use far less of the pads/rotors, I think the fluid is still more of a time based thing (Tesla says have it tested every 2 years, and replace as needed).

Both have cabin filters, though the EV won't have an engine air filter of course (but that's a pretty minor cost/effort). And IIRC, Tesla's have coolant for the batteries, and I think it's on the same schedule as most cars?

-ERD50

According to the 2020 Tesla owner's manual: "your Battery coolant does not need to be replaced for the life of your vehicle under most circumstances. Brake fluid should be checked every 2 years, replacing if necessary.
NOTE: Any damage caused by opening the Battery coolant reservoir is excluded from the warranty."


Mechanical brakes are used far less on most EV's as the regenerative brakes do nearly all of the work.

 

[ERD50]

... My locked in, cost for electricity, for the next 35 years, is $0.12/kWh prior to any rebates or net metering.

My cost for power after taking rebates into effect is $0.015/kWh. ...

Are you saying that 87.5% of your solar installation was rebated? I've never heard such a figure.

1 − (0.015 ∕ 0.12) = 0.875

... Now if we talk about Hydrogen electric vehicle.. then we are talking about entirely different ballgame. Hydrogen is the most abundant element on earth's surface. Literally everywhere. ...

While true, it is also meaningless and misleading.

It's like telling a man on a life boat dying of thirst that there is water all around him, literally everywhere! That's also true, but meaningless and misleading.

That water all around him is not in a form he can use. The hydrogen all around us (the ocean is full of it - H2O) is also not in a form you can use in your car.

You can separate H from H2O by electrolysis - but that requires a lot of electricity (which could charge an EV). Or you can get it from petroleum (which is a hydro-carbon), but that doesn't get us off fossil fuel (if that's the goal), and after you separate the H from a hydro-carbon, you are left with carbon. So I dont think it eliminates carbon emissions either (if that's the goal).

According to the 2020 Tesla owner's manual: "your Battery coolant does not need to be replaced for the life of your vehicle under most circumstances. Brake fluid should be checked every 2 years, replacing if necessary.
NOTE: Any damage caused by opening the Battery coolant reservoir is excluded from the warranty."

Mechanical brakes are used far less on most EV's as the regenerative brakes do nearly all of the work.

Yes, I see they updated the coolant change (earlier, they published a scheduled change), but many ICE cars use coolant with a 5 year/150,000 mile change, so again, not insignificant. but certainly no big deal.

As far as brakes, yes, I stated that I know that EVs and hybrids place far less wear on the pads/rotors, but the fluid is more time based. That's why Tesla states test it every 2 years (that is test, not just check as in check the level). My car just says replace every 3 years. Not sure what I'd find if I tried to test it, it probably would be fine for longer. Not sure if a test is much less than replace though.

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

Not "apple to apple" comparison going on in this thread.

Some costs are added upfront. For EV: you pay upfront for a large pile of Lithium under your car. Roughly around $10k.for an average EV.

Add that to the cost when folks calculate how much they are paying per mile. There is a reason starting price of an average starter EV is $35k and for ICE it is $25k. Cost of Lithium pack...

I think the average EV battery costs a lot more than $10K, for a car that can go more than 200 miles. You neglected the cost of the engine+transmission for the ICE car that the EV does not have.

 

[yhoomajor]

I think the average EV battery costs a lot more than $10K, for a car that can go more than 200 miles. You neglected the cost of the engine+transmission for the ICE car that the EV does not have.

Engine+transmission manufacturing has been commoditized for decades now. And is included in $25k price of average starter ice cars. Most of the cost is the commodity itself. Which is Aluminium + alloys etc.

So now compare cost of commodity required to make an ICE engine work vs commodity required to make an EV work. And there is not enough Lithium out there to make whole world work on EVs. So one can't really scale it out and lower its cost. That's why its so expensive.

 

[Koolau]

Engine+transmission manufacturing has been commoditized for decades now. And is included in $25k price of average starter ice cars. Most of the cost is the commodity itself. Which is Aluminium + alloys etc.

So now compare cost of commodity required to make an ICE engine work vs commodity required to make an EV work. And there is not enough Lithium out there to make whole world work on EVs. So one can't really scale it out and lower its cost. That's why its so expensive.

No expert, but I have heard that lithium is likely the limiting factor in switching "all" of us to EVs in the future. Adding to the issue is that lithium is unevenly distributed among countries that at best might be considered our competitors if not our adversaries. I'm sure we'll get better at recycling Li batteries in the future, but I think right now, recycling is still somewhat problematic. Probably difficult to get accurate data on the pollution caused by Li mining and battery manufacture since most of it is remote from USA. Perhaps none of these issues will doom EVs, but I think they will be considerations going forward. YMMV

 

[NW-Bound]

Speaking of lithium, I saw an article about GM partnering with another company to get lithium from the Salton Sea in CA.

GM just announced that it became the first investor in a project run by Controlled Thermal Resources. CTR will pump hot, salty water from deep below the Salton Sea and extract the lithium from it, along with clean thermo energy at the same time. Cleaner water goes back into the Salton Sea and the ground beneath it. It’s a win-win. You might even add another win in there when you consider the California Energy Commission’s estimate that the Salton Sea area could produce 600,000 tons of lithium per year, which is amazing since the entire world’s industry produced a mere 85,000 tons of lithium in all of 2019.

What we need now is an American industrial company to step up and say it will build lithium-iron-phosphate cells (LiFePO4). Chinese companies are the dominant source of this type of cells, which has a longer life than the type used in consumer electronic products and EVs.

LiFePO4. Lithium, iron, and phosphate. No expensive cobalt and nickel.

Everybody knows LiFePO4 lasts longer and is less expensive, but it is heavier than the other types. However, for energy storage, whether large-scale installations or residential units, the weight is not a concern, and the long life is a huge plus. I can use more in my DIY home system myself. More, more, more...

PS. I have seen videos of smaller Chinese companies making LiFePO4. Don't really know all that I was looking at, but it did not appear to involve processes or machinery that an American company like GE or MMM would not be able to do.

PPS. Some or all of Tesla cars made in China are now using LiFePO4 cells. I have not been able get the specs of these cars to see if they have the same weight or the same range as cars made in the US, in order to see the penalty for using this type of heavier cells. China has been using LiFePO4 cells in public buses.

 

[yhoomajor]

Everybody knows LiFePO4 lasts longer and is less expensive, but it is heavier than the other types. However, for energy storage, whether large-scale installations or residential units, the weight is not a concern, and the long life is a huge plus. I can use more in my DIY home system myself. More, more, more...
.

On a side note, I'm thinking of following your setup (Solar Panels in the backyard that would charge batteries that I can then use to power ductless mini split AC). My backyard is not that big and looks like I would roughly need 1200W panels to run a smallish AC. So I have to fight myself thinking what problem I am trying to solve. But one day I may end up setting it up.