The Electric Vehicle Thread

[NW-Bound]

On a side note, I'm thinking of following your setup (Solar Panels in the backyard that would charge batteries that I can then use to power ductless mini split AC). My backyard is not that big and looks like I would roughly need 1200W panels to run a smallish AC. So I have to fight myself thinking what problem I am trying to solve. But one day I may end up setting it up.

I built my system as a hobby project. The pay off is fairly long, and somewhat unknown because I don't know if the battery will last as long as the manufacturer promised (aging down to 80% of original capacity or something like that, after 2000 cycles).

I did it for fun, because I have had only 2 or 3 power outages in the last 30 years, the longest lasting 3 hours, and the short one about 1/2 hour. For that kind of outage, a generator is much more practical, if at all needed. Or a hotel room would also work.

However, if I were in an area with PSPS (Public Safety Power Shutoffs), and with high electricity rates to boot, that would be a much stronger motivation to build a solar+battery system. It would not be a hobby, but for survival.

 

[Faraday]

Inflation aside from our $28 Trillion debt to Federal reserve, Battery costs will continue to decline, ,,


Electric motors are 93,97% efficient. You can hold one in hand.


What is the efficiency of a Internal combustion engine ?

 

[audreyh1]

Road legal: 20 to 35%

 

[Faraday]

Thank you,

Electric motors are 93 to 97 percent efficient.
Internal combustion engines are 20 to 35 percent efficient.



OUCH!
Suppose I buy, pump, burn, Chevron premium with Techtron?,, 36 percent?,
Humor.

 

[CardsFan]

Thank you,

Electric motors are 93 to 97 percent efficient.
Internal combustion engines are 20 to 35 percent efficient.



OUCH!
Suppose I buy, pump, burn, Chevron premium with Techtron?,, 36 percent?,
Humor.

And how is that electricity produced? Because THAT is not 100% efficient.
Combined cycle gas turbine 60% at best. Line losses, 2-4%. Solar, Need power at night, well unless you have your own little grid, with batteries, and some here do, tough luck.

And, read the earlier comments about pollution from lithium mining.

Bottom line, there is no free lunch. Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[NW-Bound]

In a simplistic view, with solar energy, you get free energy from the sun.

Oh wait! With oil, you get it free from the ground.

Eh, not so fast. With solar, you've got capital expenses for solar panels, DC-to-AC inverters, battery chargers, batteries.

With oil, you've got to have oil well equipment, refineries, pipelines, storage tanks, all kinds of stuff.

With solar, there's very little operating cost, and no mechanical parts. And an individual like myself can erect a PV array, run some wires, assemble some lithium cells, etc... How do I drill my own oil well, and run a mini refinery?

So, solar should be a no-brainer win, right?

Ah, but life is not so simple. People think, solar panels should last a very long time, and in fact how could they fail? Oh yeah, you will be surprised to learn about different failure modes of solar panels. And I am not talking about obvious hazards like hail storms, tornadoes, etc..., but failures due to aging.

But solar panels are still not your problem. It's the battery, which is much more expensive than the panels, and with a more iffy lifetime.

With time, batteries will get cheaper, and may last longer. But it will be a very long time until we can get enough battery capacity to even think of not needing fossil fuel.

 

[CardsFan]

In a simplistic view, with solar energy, you get free energy from the sun.

Oh wait! With oil, you get it free from the ground.

Eh, not so fast. With solar, you've got capital expenses for solar panels, DC-to-AC inverters, battery chargers, batteries.

With oil, you've got to have oil well equipment, refineries, pipelines, storage tanks, all kinds of stuff.

With solar, there's very little operating cost, and no mechanical parts. And an individual like myself can erect a PV array, run some wires, assemble some lithium cells, etc... How do I drill my own oil well, and run a mini refinery?

So, solar should be a no-brainer win, right?

Ah, but life is not so simple. People think, solar panels should last a very long time, and in fact how could they fail? Oh yeah, you will be surprised to learn about different failure modes of solar panels. And I am not talking about obvious hazards like hail storms, tornadoes, etc..., but failures due to aging.

But solar panels are still not your problem. It's the battery, which is much more expensive than the panels, and with a more iffy lifetime.

With time, batteries will get cheaper, and may last longer. But it will be a very long time until we can get enough battery capacity to even think of not needing fossil fuel.

Well said.

There will always be a change in how we create/store power, until we don't exist anymore.

Solar power has it's place, but it is no where ready for "prime time".

Food for thought: If we put up enough solar arrays, will we actually create global cooling? After all, that energy is no longer available to warm the earth, at least not directly. Or, maybe what happens is we normalize temps. Energy is captured in Nevada, and dissipated in Minnesota?

Just pointing out the Law of Unintended Consequences.

 

[Faraday]

The Baihetan Hydropower Station is equipped with 16 generating units, with an expected output of 62 billion kilowatt-hours of electricity per year, or more than 15 times the energy produced by the Hoover Dam in the US. It can help reduce China's carbon emissions by more than 51 million tons per year. China's second largest hydropower project after the Three Gorges project.

At the same time, the Baihetan Dam is the world's first "seamless dam." Construction of the 289-meter-high dam involved more than 8 million cubic meters of concrete.

 

[NW-Bound]

Solar power has it's place, but it is no where ready for "prime time".

But if there are places where it can be efficient and economically competitive, I would like to see more of it.

Food for thought: If we put up enough solar arrays, will we actually create global cooling? After all, that energy is no longer available to warm the earth, at least not directly. Or, maybe what happens is we normalize temps. Energy is captured in Nevada, and dissipated in Minnesota?

You are talking global cooling to a SW dweller? And what's wrong with capturing the sun's heat here and sending it elsewhere? Beautiful music to my ears.

Seriously, capturing the solar power will reduce cooling where the panels are, and releasing that heat where the electric power is used. And it reduces the heat from burning fossil fuel. Independently from reducing the effect the heat trapping gas, there should be a lower level of heating.


PS. No, I take the above back. Solar panels will cause more heating where they are deployed.

What happens is that because the panels are black, they capture much of the sun ray as heat. The efficiency of the panels is only about 20%. This means only 20% is converted to electricity, and the panels heat up a lot, compared to the ground which reflects more of the sunlight due to being a lighter color. The hot panels then release the heat to the surrounding air.

I should have remembered how hot my solar panels get. They are up to 150-160F on a summer day when the air temperature is 115F. Don't know about black asphalt, but a sandy soil will not get up to 150-160F.

 

[CardsFan]

The Baihetan Hydropower Station is equipped with 16 generating units, with an expected output of 62 billion kilowatt-hours of electricity per year, or more than 15 times the energy produced by the Hoover Dam in the US. It can help reduce China's carbon emissions by more than 51 million tons per year. China's second largest hydropower project after the Three Gorges project.

At the same time, the Baihetan Dam is the world's first "seamless dam." Construction of the 289-meter-high dam involved more than 8 million cubic meters of concrete.

Yes, it is great to build a project with no environmental regulations and no safety rules.

 

[NW-Bound]

The Baihetan Hydropower Station is equipped with 16 generating units, with an expected output of 62 billion kilowatt-hours of electricity per year, or more than 15 times the energy produced by the Hoover Dam in the US. It can help reduce China's carbon emissions by more than 51 million tons per year. China's second largest hydropower project after the Three Gorges project.

At the same time, the Baihetan Dam is the world's first "seamless dam." Construction of the 289-meter-high dam involved more than 8 million cubic meters of concrete.

Putting aside any environmental effect and potential catastrophe if the dam breaks, the dam output of 62 billion kWh/year is 1.1% of the total energy consumption of China of 5,600 billion kWh/year.


PS. For comparison, the USA uses 3,900 billion kWh/year. Obviously, China uses more because it now does most of the heavy lifting in manufacturing.

 

[Popeye]

Tesla Inc (TSLA.O) plans to open its network of superchargers to other electric vehicles later this year, Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk said on Twitter.

Very interesting move! Tesla will allow others to use their charging network later this year. Are they giving away an advantage? Could be a move to position themselves for some infrastructure monies.

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...network-other-evs-later-this-year-2021-07-20/

 

[NW-Bound]

Very interesting move! Tesla will allow others to use their charging network later this year. Are they giving away an advantage? Could be a move to position themselves for some infrastructure monies.

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...network-other-evs-later-this-year-2021-07-20/

They might as well make some money off other EVs, if their network has excess capacity.

I think they will have to do some retrofit, and install the other plugs that other EVs use. Or they can offer adapters for other EV owners to buy.

 

[explanade]

I saw some ChargePoint chargers around so I checked out their web site.

Very pricey.

So maybe that's Tesla's angle, why not gouge some non Tesla owners?

 

[Faraday]

I saw some ChargePoint chargers around so I checked out their web site.

Very pricey.

So maybe that's Tesla's angle, why not gouge some non Tesla owners?

Thx, that's funny, because I went to the Gas buddy web site,,very pricey,,
So maybe that's big oils angle, why not gouge some non Tesla owners?, $3.50 a gal. and Government get a $1 in taxes for every gal pumped.

Nice!

, I hear Ford's got a idea to re gen charge by simply towing their EVs!

Ford’s patent, titled “BATTERY CHARGING BY TOWED REGENERATIVE BRAKING,”


https://www.google.com/amp/s/electr...h-electric-cars-pollute-gas-powered-cars/amp/

 

[folivier]

Wonder what that would do to your motorhome mileage?

 

[Lakewood90712]

In a simplistic view, with solar energy, you get free energy from the sun.

Oh wait! With oil, you get it free from the ground.

Eh, not so fast. With solar, you've got capital expenses for solar panels, DC-to-AC inverters, battery chargers, batteries.

With oil, you've got to have oil well equipment, refineries, pipelines, storage tanks, all kinds of stuff.

With solar, there's very little operating cost, and no mechanical parts. And an individual like myself can erect a PV array, run some wires, assemble some lithium cells, etc... How do I drill my own oil well, and run a mini refinery?

So, solar should be a no-brainer win, right?

Ah, but life is not so simple. People think, solar panels should last a very long time, and in fact how could they fail? Oh yeah, you will be surprised to learn about different failure modes of solar panels. And I am not talking about obvious hazards like hail storms, tornadoes, etc..., but failures due to aging.

But solar panels are still not your problem. It's the battery, which is much more expensive than the panels, and with a more iffy lifetime.

With time, batteries will get cheaper, and may last longer. But it will be a very long time until we can get enough battery capacity to even think of not needing fossil fuel.

No Lithium Ion or Lead Acid batteries for my house , I want Sodium Sulphur batteries. Low cost , low charge / discharge loss. And it operates at a temperature that will keep anything within 6 feet warm in the dead of winter. ?

 

[NW-Bound]

No Lithium Ion or Lead Acid batteries for my house , I want Sodium Sulphur batteries. Low cost , low charge / discharge loss. And it operates at a temperature that will keep anything within 6 feet warm in the dead of winter. ��

Warmth for the winter? Are you in Lakewood California, or another Lakewood, like Lakewood Michigan?

 

[NW-Bound]

I hear Ford's got a idea to re gen charge by simply towing their EVs!

Ford’s patent, titled “BATTERY CHARGING BY TOWED REGENERATIVE BRAKING,”

Silly as it sounds, it may make sense for emergency rescue. If your EV ran out of juice, instead of the road assistance truck running a generator to charge it, your car could be towed for charging.

Here's a 20kW generator on a trailer, which will have to run for 1 hour to put 60 miles of driving into your EV.

Or the road assistance truck can be put on 1st gear and drags your EV for some miles for your EV to do its own regen charging. I will need to do some research to see how many miles of dragging to get the charge for the same 60 miles of driving.


PS. The EV has to be designed to do this. It will have to be flat-towed if it is an all-wheel drive. And if it is a front-wheel drive, then it may have to be dragged by lifting its rear so that the front drive wheels are on the ground. It's the reverse of normal towing. And the EV is running regen charging in reverse drive mode.

 

[ERD50]

Silly as it sounds, it may make sense for emergency rescue. If your EV ran out of juice, instead of the road assistance truck running a generator to charge it, your car could be towed for charging. ...

I saw a youtube video a while back. IIRC they demonstrated that a truck with one gallon of fuel, and Tesla on zero charge could go furthest by having the truck tow the Tesla and regen, then get in the Tesla and drive a little further (further than driving the truck alone).

That seems to defy the laws of conservation of energy, but I think it has to do with the truck being more efficient under load, and the Tesla being able to regen efficiently. Still seems weird.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-ca...gas-with-ford-f150-raptor-tow-charge-a-tesla/

But it's true. If you've got a dead-empty last-generation Ford F-150 Raptor with the 6.2-liter V-8, and a dead-empty Tesla Model 3, and one single gallon of gas, you'll go farther by using the Raptor to tow-charge the Tesla—then driving the Tesla as far as you can—than you would just driving the Raptor.

-ERD50

 

[Lakewood90712]

Warmth for the winter? Are you in Lakewood California, or another Lakewood, like Lakewood Michigan?

Lakewood CA , No Lakes and no woods. Just a cute name for 4 sq. miles of post war tract houses. Our place id the tiny pre war section, built 1941

https://www.amazon.com/Holy-Land-Su...words=Holy+Land&qid=1627011944&s=books&sr=1-2

The developers sold you a house , and offered financing ( they owned a large S and L too )

 

[explanade]

In a simplistic view, with solar energy, you get free energy from the sun.

Oh wait! With oil, you get it free from the ground.

Eh, not so fast. With solar, you've got capital expenses for solar panels, DC-to-AC inverters, battery chargers, batteries.

With oil, you've got to have oil well equipment, refineries, pipelines, storage tanks, all kinds of stuff.

With solar, there's very little operating cost, and no mechanical parts. And an individual like myself can erect a PV array, run some wires, assemble some lithium cells, etc... How do I drill my own oil well, and run a mini refinery?

So, solar should be a no-brainer win, right?

Ah, but life is not so simple. People think, solar panels should last a very long time, and in fact how could they fail? Oh yeah, you will be surprised to learn about different failure modes of solar panels. And I am not talking about obvious hazards like hail storms, tornadoes, etc..., but failures due to aging.

But solar panels are still not your problem. It's the battery, which is much more expensive than the panels, and with a more iffy lifetime.

With time, batteries will get cheaper, and may last longer. But it will be a very long time until we can get enough battery capacity to even think of not needing fossil fuel.

Look at utility-scale solar and wind.

Are their capital costs greater than other forms of power generation infrastructure?

Cheaper than coal, gas or nuclear plants?

Even if the capital costs were same, then it becomes about ongoing operational costs.

Look, no ongoing fuel costs? Oil may be in the ground but it costs to pump, transport, refine, etc.

What would raise solar and wind costs would be massive storage as part of the solar or wind farms.

But beyond the capital costs, operation costs should go heavily to wind and solar unless they require a lot more manpower than fossil fuel power plants.

 

[NW-Bound]

Look at utility-scale solar and wind.

Are their capital costs greater than other forms of power generation infrastructure?

Cheaper than coal, gas or nuclear plants?

Even if the capital costs were same, then it becomes about ongoing operational costs.

Look, no ongoing fuel costs? Oil may be in the ground but it costs to pump, transport, refine, etc.

What would raise solar and wind costs would be massive storage as part of the solar or wind farms.

But beyond the capital costs, operation costs should go heavily to wind and solar unless they require a lot more manpower than fossil fuel power plants.

I agree that operational costs of wind and solar generation are lower than energy from oil. The capital costs have been going down, at least with solar from what I can see with small-scale residential hardware. I just wanted to point out that even things with no moving parts like solar panels still wear down and require replacement.

It is so cheap and easy to generate lots of solar power in places like the SW. The real problem is how to store it for night use, let alone for rainy days.

 

[yhoomajor]

Look at utility-scale solar and wind.

Are their capital costs greater than other forms of power generation infrastructure?

Cheaper than coal, gas or nuclear plants?

Even if the capital costs were same, then it becomes about ongoing operational costs.

Look, no ongoing fuel costs? Oil may be in the ground but it costs to pump, transport, refine, etc.

What would raise solar and wind costs would be massive storage as part of the solar or wind farms.

But beyond the capital costs, operation costs should go heavily to wind and solar unless they require a lot more manpower than fossil fuel power plants.

Apparently you haven't seen half the windmills dead when travelling between LA and Phoenix on I-10 near Palm Spring. Those towers need constant maintenance.

 

[NW-Bound]

Lakewood CA , No Lakes and no woods. Just a cute name for 4 sq. miles of post war tract houses. Our place id the tiny pre war section, built 1941

https://www.amazon.com/Holy-Land-Su...words=Holy+Land&qid=1627011944&s=books&sr=1-2

The developers sold you a house , and offered financing ( they owned a large S and L too )

Just teasing about it not getting cold in Lakewood CA (I saw the Zip code). I did not know the history of the town, but am somewhat familiar with the area. I have relatives and friends living in nearby Cerritos.