The Electric Vehicle Thread

[Koolau]

EVs, as with anything, will have some limitations obviously. But your son's experience sounds about right. Most of the limitations today is infrastructure based. An ICE would be much worse if the fueling infrastructure was worse.

The good thing about EV charging is that the infrastructure is cheap to deploy. And once deployed, it's relatively easy to maintain. A gas station is expensive to deploy, requires a constant stream of trucks to bring in fuel, human staff because it's dangerous, and every couple of decades, the underground tanks need to be replaced with considerable costs and downtime.

EV charging at home takes 2 second each day and is much more convenient than gas stations. Charging infrastructure at apartments and condos will improve over time as adoption and demand from residents increase. Charging infrastructure between destinations for road trips will improve and include stalls that accommodate trailers and other utility vehicles as the adoption increases. It's all relatively cheap and easy to deploy compared to the gas station infrastructure of today.

In a few decades, gas stations will all but disappear.

Yes, it's always the transition period that can get dicey. We (I'm now in the midwest for a while) are facing black-outs this summer. Not good for charging cars or even keeping the AC running. Imagine if we were even 20% EVs. Lots of folks would be unable to charge their cars. Suddenly, old ICE cars would be worth their weight, so to speak. I feel certain it will all shake out eventually, but there will be some pain along the way.

 

[ls99]

Is obvious, gasoline prices are up. Now some electric costs are on the increase. Will likely effect EV charging costs.
"
Energy costs skyrocketed on June 1st. Now, most customers will be paying between 6-45% more than they were before June.
On the border of Centre and Clearfield Counties, Penelec has substantial reach...and its prices jumped up 35.4% this week."

https://wjactv.com/news/local/elect...act-to-this-weeks-huge-increases-on-utilities

 

[Alan]

Yes, it's always the transition period that can get dicey. We (I'm now in the midwest for a while) are facing black-outs this summer. Not good for charging cars or even keeping the AC running. Imagine if we were even 20% EVs. Lots of folks would be unable to charge their cars. Suddenly, old ICE cars would be worth their weight, so to speak. I feel certain it will all shake out eventually, but there will be some pain along the way.

Fortunately I am not that familiar with black-outs, but a time when we did have them they were scheduled and always during peak demand. I think most EV owners charge their cars overnight during low-demand periods and for convenience. My sister uses her Leaf (that she has had for 6 months now) to commute to work and tells me that she usually only needs to charge it once every 2 weeks. She also charges at home overnight taking advantage of the low prices with her energy provider.

 

[Zathras]

Is obvious, gasoline prices are up. Now some electric costs are on the increase. Will likely effect EV charging costs.
"
Energy costs skyrocketed on June 1st. Now, most customers will be paying between 6-45% more than they were before June.
On the border of Centre and Clearfield Counties, Penelec has substantial reach...and its prices jumped up 35.4% this week."

https://wjactv.com/news/local/elect...act-to-this-weeks-huge-increases-on-utilities

Some energy prices have spiked.
Where I am at, there have been modest increases.
My personal price for electricity hasn’t increased as I locked in the price about 6 years ago.

The graph halfway down this page shows how stable electricity prices are compared to gas.
https://www.nrdc.org/experts/max-baumhefner/fight-fascists-save-money-electric

 

[Koolau]

Fortunately I am not that familiar with black-outs, but a time when we did have them they were scheduled and always during peak demand. I think most EV owners charge their cars overnight during low-demand periods and for convenience. My sister uses her Leaf (that she has had for 6 months now) to commute to work and tells me that she usually only needs to charge it once every 2 weeks. She also charges at home overnight taking advantage of the low prices with her energy provider.

I hope you are correct that we'll have some warning. The last time I lived through this was maybe 40 years ago and there were no warnings - of course, we didn't have internet back then. YMMV

 

[ken830]

Even though electricity prices are increasing, keep in mind that: 1) they increase at a much more gradual and predictable rate and 2) many people have the option to mitigate the market prices by investing in a solar/battery storage system. Gas prices fluctuate daily and you are definitely not going to be drilling for oil and operating a mini refinery in your backyard.

Regarding blackouts, remember that gas stations require electricity to operate everything including their pumps. And since people generally don't use anywhere near the full range of their vehicles daily, it means that there is a high probability that they have a source of stored electrical energy in their garage to help make it through a temporary blackout. They would be able to charge their phones, run the heater or air conditioner, etc with no deadly fumes. Some may even support v2g which will allow powering the entire home during the outage. Others will have a solar and battery system which can be disconnected from the grid and keep operating in isolated mode.

 

[Alan]

I hope you are correct that we'll have some warning. The last time I lived through this was maybe 40 years ago and there were no warnings - of course, we didn't have internet back then. YMMV

Even without warnings it is much more likely that blackouts will occur during the highest demand periods and EVs are usually charged overnight when demand is at its lowest.

 

[Koolau]

Even though electricity prices are increasing, keep in mind that: 1) they increase at a much more gradual and predictable rate and 2) many people have the option to mitigate the market prices by investing in a solar/battery storage system. Gas prices fluctuate daily and you are definitely not going to be drilling for oil and operating a mini refinery in your backyard.

Regarding blackouts, remember that gas stations require electricity to operate everything including their pumps. And since people generally don't use anywhere near the full range of their vehicles daily, it means that there is a high probability that they have a source of stored electrical energy in their garage to help make it through a temporary blackout. They would be able to charge their phones, run the heater or air conditioner, etc with no deadly fumes. Some may even support v2g which will allow powering the entire home during the outage. Others will have a solar and battery system which can be disconnected from the grid and keep operating in isolated mode.

Hopefully this issue of black outs will be short enough (and infrequent enough) to obviate the need for adaption. I think, in this day and age, blackouts should no longer happen. I understand how it can happen - shutting down older coal and nuclear facilities. But, I believe the regulators can stop those shut downs if there are no replacements yet. Only exception to that would be if shutdowns are for safety. Apparently, they are for economics instead. We give more or less monopoly powers to the utilities and they can raise their prices for the most part. Why can we not insist they supply enough power even if it means their profits drop a bit. YMMV

 

[Koolau]

I hope this hasn't been posted before. I found a narrative about a trip in a rented EV from NOLA to CHI town and back. Each leg took 2 days. I've mentioned that my son drove his Tesla a bit farther and had better luck though each leg was 3 days. Part of the issue may well be the brand of car with Tesla being more likely to find a charging system that works reasonably well. In any case, if the attached story is even close to typical, I would not use one for cross country trips. YMMV

https://climatechangedispatch.com/i...-a-four-day-road-trip-and-it-was-a-nightmare/

 

[2HOTinPHX]

I believe the Bolt uses paddle shifters on the steering wheel to control the amount of regen.

BOLT EV GOES THE DISTANCE…WITH ONE PEDAL
Drivers can push range boundaries with selectable one-pedal driving modes
Progressively stronger levels of regen braking are employed in all Bolt EV driving through a series of four driver-selectable modes:

Operating in Drive and easing off the accelerator.
Operating in Drive and using the Regen on Demand paddle on the back of the steering wheel.
Operating in Low and easing off the accelerator.
Operating in Low and using the Regen on Demand paddle in tandem.
Number 1 provides the lowest level of regen braking and requires the use of the brake pedal to bring the vehicle to a complete stop. Numbers 2-4 are progressively stronger one-pedal driving modes that in certain driving situations allow a driver to stop the vehicle without using the brake pedal. (One-pedal modes do not eliminate the need to use the brake pedal altogether, especially in emergency situations.)

 

[Chuckanut]

I hope this hasn't been posted before. I found a narrative about a trip in a rented EV from NOLA to CHI town and back. Each leg took 2 days. I've mentioned that my son drove his Tesla a bit farther and had better luck though each leg was 3 days. Part of the issue may well be the brand of car with Tesla being more likely to find a charging system that works reasonably well. In any case, if the attached story is even close to typical, I would not use one for cross country trips. YMMV

https://climatechangedispatch.com/i...-a-four-day-road-trip-and-it-was-a-nightmare/

This is the same article that was in the WSJ mentioned above. (#3748) But, it's not behind a paywall. Very good!!

You seem to have had a similar reaction to it that I did. They picked the wrong car for the route they took. IMHO, some of the EV owners on this site would probably have made a few changes to the route or car, and had less problems.

 

[Koolau]

This is the same article that was in the WSJ mentioned above. (#3748) But, it's not behind a paywall. Very good!!

You seem to have had a similar reaction to it that I did. They picked the wrong car for the route they took. IMHO, some of the EV owners on this site would probably have made a few changes to the route or car, and had less problems.

Yeah, my son's Teslas seems pretty much ready for prime time, but DIL's Kia - not so much. She doesn't take a chance on a 60 mile trip even with a full charge. Her car has a small battery, but Wow! Not even 60 miles. YMMV

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

Yeah, my son's Teslas seems pretty much ready for prime time, but DIL's Kia - not so much. She doesn't take a chance on a 60 mile trip even with a full charge. Her car has a small battery, but Wow! Not even 60 miles. YMMV

DIL?

I thought they broke up?

The situation improved I'm guessing?

 

[Koolau]

DIL?

I thought they broke up?

The situation improved I'm guessing?

Since she had my GD, I still think of her as my DIL - full disclosure - they never married! Guess calling her my DIL says a lot about me, huh? We have a great relationship with both of the parents - just not together. It's a source of sadness but our GD makes it all worth it. YMMV

 

[NW-Bound]

I hope this hasn't been posted before. I found a narrative about a trip in a rented EV from NOLA to CHI town and back. Each leg took 2 days. I've mentioned that my son drove his Tesla a bit farther and had better luck though each leg was 3 days. Part of the issue may well be the brand of car with Tesla being more likely to find a charging system that works reasonably well. In any case, if the attached story is even close to typical, I would not use one for cross country trips. YMMV

https://climatechangedispatch.com/i...-a-four-day-road-trip-and-it-was-a-nightmare/

What an ordeal!

If the writer told the reason she made the roundtrip from New Orleans to Chicago, I missed it. So, she was just making the trip in an EV to have a real-life experience to write about. I am glad that somebody else did it, and it was not me.

 

[Koolau]

My son has done quite a number of long trips in his Tesla - the longest was from the west cost to the midwest. By now, he seems to know most of the tricks and he is an incredibly methodical person. SO he rarely gets rattled and he did his homework when buying electric. Tesla was more expensive but gave (at least at that time) the best chance of a "normal" driving experience on the road. He was able to wire his house for charging and he knows what kind of charging stations to use and those to avoid when traveling. It's a whole new experience, but he seems to thrive on that kind of learning.

Any Tom, Dick or Harriet setting out on a long road trip may bite off more than they can chew if they make it their first experience in an electric car. Apparently there are also vast differences in charging rates between car brands - with (apparently) Tesla being the best at this time, though I have no source for that. YMMV

 

[Car-Guy]

^^^^^ That speaks volumes for the status of EV's and supporting infrastructure.

Thanks for that post...

 

[Zathras]

Everyone I speak to, and reports of down chargers, all support the idea of the Supercharger network being the best network at this time.
We took a trip from MN to CA and back through AZ back in 2014.

We spent more time planning our hotel stays than charging stops. The amount of learning isn’t that big, but it is a different way of thinking.

The advantages the supercharger network has today include:

1. 4-12 chargers at each ‘station’ with the average of about 10. So if one is down, no big deal to use another.
2. No additional membership card, or credit card payment. Plug in and it starts charging.
3. All. Superchargers appear in the in-car navigation, including how many stalls are available. If a station is entirely down, that also shows in the navigation.
4. Minimum speed of a Tesla supercharger is, as far as I recall, 150kW. Minimum speed of some other charging networks is 25kW.

I agree with other posters, the reporter used the wrong tool for the job.

 

[Midpack]

Just a projection, but interesting if anywhere near correct. Will ICE cars only be 53% of all new cars sold in the US by 2025, if they're 88% in 2022?

https://www.bcg.com/publications/2021/why-evs-need-to-accelerate-their-market-penetration

And an interesting article about addressing charging infrastructure.

https://www.bcg.com/publications/20...g-station-infrastructure-plan-for-governments

 

[Chuckanut]

Since she had my GD, I still think of her as my DIL - full disclosure - they never married! Guess calling her my DIL says a lot about me, huh? We have a great relationship with both of the parents - just not together. It's a source of sadness but our GD makes it all worth it. YMMV

You are very wise to have a good relationship with both parents of your grandchildren.

On Topic - I believe the article mentioned that the ladies doing this drive from New Orleans to Chicago and back in four days thought they had a 300+ mile battery in the car, but actually had a battery in the mid 200 mile range.
It was a rental car so they did not know too much about it. Not so good.

 

[explanade]

Tesla seems to have an app that plans out your trip and routes you to chargers.

I imagine other EV manufacturers have similar or there are third party apps which navigate you through charger networks.

Or Google will just integrate into Google Maps, so you don't have to figure out what kind of charger to look for.

Other EVs like the Ioniq 5 can charge at a much faster rate than any Tesla. So those kinds of considerations will factor into buying decisions, or they should.

But people are talking about cross country trips and such. I've never done a cross-country. Longest trip was probably about 800-900 miles.

I don't have plans to do such long drives again.

2-3 hours is about the most I would want to drive in a day.

 

[Koolau]

Tesla seems to have an app that plans out your trip and routes you to chargers.

I imagine other EV manufacturers have similar or there are third party apps which navigate you through charger networks.

Or Google will just integrate into Google Maps, so you don't have to figure out what kind of charger to look for.

Other EVs like the Ioniq 5 can charge at a much faster rate than any Tesla. So those kinds of considerations will factor into buying decisions, or they should.

But people are talking about cross country trips and such. I've never done a cross-country. Longest trip was probably about 800-900 miles.

I don't have plans to do such long drives again.

2-3 hours is about the most I would want to drive in a day.

Maybe I'm thinking backward but if I wanted an EV and still had an ICE, I would go "cheap" on the EV (smaller battery - no long range trips) and use the ICE for my (very) occasional long range trips.

True enough one could save a lot on a long range trip using electrons instead of carbon atoms, BUT we just don't do long trips very often. Short term trips in town is the ideal for EVs (due to regen in stop and go) while the big old (in my case) Buick is SOOoooo comfortable for long trips and it takes 10 minutes to gas it up every 450 miles. No fuel planning would be needed in an ICE but the EV could be charged at home for many people (not me, so I probably would not actually purchase and EV.) Tailoring the car to the driving need is nothing new. I think a new dimension has been added to the tailoring now that EVs are viable. YMMV

 

[travelover]

Maybe I'm thinking backward but if I wanted an EV and still had an ICE, I would go "cheap" on the EV (smaller battery - no long range trips) and use the ICE for my (very) occasional long range trips.

True enough one could save a lot on a long range trip using electrons instead of carbon atoms, BUT we just don't do long trips very often. Short term trips in town is the ideal for EVs (due to regen in stop and go) while the big old (in my case) Buick is SOOoooo comfortable for long trips and it takes 10 minutes to gas it up every 450 miles. No fuel planning would be needed in an ICE but the EV could be charged at home for many people (not me, so I probably would not actually purchase and EV.) Tailoring the car to the driving need is nothing new. I think a new dimension has been added to the tailoring now that EVs are viable. YMMV

I think this will be long term trend for two car families. You'll start to see used ICE vehicles ten years old with 25,000 miles on the clock. For most people, long trips are an exception. Eventually long trip, ICE vehicles may just be rentals.

 

[jabbahop]

2600 mile trip - Utah to VT in our Tesla

My son has done quite a number of long trips in his Tesla - the longest was from the west cost to the midwest. By now, he seems to know most of the tricks and he is an incredibly methodical person. SO he rarely gets rattled and he did his homework when buying electric. Tesla was more expensive but gave (at least at that time) the best chance of a "normal" driving experience on the road. He was able to wire his house for charging and he knows what kind of charging stations to use and those to avoid when traveling. It's a whole new experience, but he seems to thrive on that kind of learning.

Any Tom, Dick or Harriet setting out on a long road trip may bite off more than they can chew if they make it their first experience in an electric car. Apparently there are also vast differences in charging rates between car brands - with (apparently) Tesla being the best at this time, though I have no source for that. YMMV

We just completed our 2600 mile in 4 day trip across the country in our Tesla. This is probably our 11th time with 3 different vintages of Tesla - 2014, 2019, 2021. The difference between our 2014 and our 2021 in range (rated 250 miles vs 400 miles) but more importantly charging time. It was common for us to be @ charger for 30-45 minutes in our 2014 vs 15-20 min in our 2021. Some of those charges were longer than we needed to continue the trip simply because we weren’t finished walking the dog, stretching our legs, getting a drink or bite to eat.

we would have spent even less time charging if there were more of the faster V3 superchargers but the older/slower V2 chargers were the majority on our route.

as some have probably said, driving EV’s long distance requires a bit of a change in behavior. Unlike a petrol vehicle where you typically fill to 100%, the quickest approach with most EVs is to come into a charger with a relatively empty battery and charge to 60-70% where the charging speed is much higher (charging above 80% can be 1/2 or less the speed) and then proceed to the next charger.

 

[NgineER]

I'm encouraged to see more accounts of longer trips with short charging intervals. I just got from what ended up being a 7,000 mile road trip, the majority of the distance driven over eight days. There were a couple 900-1,000 mile days where we in total spent 1.5 hours not driving. If you can get away with charging enough for 300 mile range in 20 minutes, that would not be so bad. It is still slower than filling the tank in 2-3 minutes and getting 400 mile range, but overall not that different. Maybe they'll need to install some monkey bars, playground equipment for the kids to work off some jitters while the car is charging.